|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 22, 2006 22:43:34 GMT -5
As open air preachers representing Christ, we cetainly should have limitations and boundaries as to what we would and would not do. What do you guys think those limitations and boundaries should be? That's the same question that I have been pondering in light of this situation. I think when talking about sin that we should limit ourselves to what the Bible says...
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 22, 2006 23:34:16 GMT -5
I look forward to seeing how the thread on Jeds board developes.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 23, 2006 0:12:12 GMT -5
Brother Jeds response on his boards:
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 23, 2006 0:30:37 GMT -5
Here's my response to that: So, do you think as open air preachers that we can just say whatever? Or do you think there is a line that we should draw? If there is a line, then what is it? I understand that you are using these things you say as a way of getting across to these students, but do you think there could be a more Christ-honoring way? Personally, I think that some of the things you say are over the top. I don't think we need to mention body parts, oral sex, masturbation, etc. I think that the sins we name out loud when it comes to preaching should be limited to what the Bible names...fornication, homosexuality, selfishness, hatred, rebellion, drug use (i.e. sorcery, etc.). Maybe I am limiting myself too much...what do you think? I guess I like to leave room for the Holy Spirit to work. If I named every sin I possibly could when open air preaching that is probably all I would talk about. I do talk about sin quite a bit, but I also talk about the Cross extensively and becoming Born Again, Repentance, Faith, etc. I guess that's what I see happening in the Bible. I understand that these are just clips...I think I mentioned that in my first post. I also understand the mindset of college kids. I do go to campuses preaching (although not as much as you have) and I did go to college, although it was after I became a Christian. I did have non-Christian friends who went to college, were a part of fraternities, etc. I used to preach to them all the time. Thank God some of them got saved out of such a evil, rebellious lifestyle. If you ever want to look at some video footage of my preaching, feel free to go to www.openairpreaching.com. I am always open to advice and tips. Thanks for your quick response by the way...
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 23, 2006 10:16:24 GMT -5
Jed's response:
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 23, 2006 10:17:11 GMT -5
My response to that:
I understand where you are coming from Jed. All I know is that when I heard preaching on lust and fornication (even if those words needed to be explained)when I was a non-Christian, the Holy Spirit brought to my mind all the evil things I did: masturbation, oral sex, pornography, etc. Someone didn't have to name all of those things specifically. There were preverted practices back in the disciples day as well, but I don't see them mentioned the shameful things that sinners do in secret. I am sure you know about history and people were just as perverted back then as they are now, yet I don't see the disciples mentioning any of these things, nor do I see the early Church "fathers" mentioning any of these detestable and shameful things that the wicked do in secret. I always try to remember to define my terms when I am preaching. Maybe I should define them more. I have open air preached probably around 400 times now and never had anyone not know what fornication is. Maybe it is because they didn't speak up or maybe I just need to preach 10,000 more times for that to happen...I don't know. I do explain words as I feel need to and as I feel led to by the Holy Spirit though. Of course I am living victoriously over sin. I wouldn't be preaching if I wasn't, because then I would be a hypocrite. I don't think that is the question though. I think the question is this: Are the things you are saying and describing in the open air sinful to say and describe? Not sure as of yet...but I know that personally, I could never say them in good conscience. I rather err on the side of not being detailed enough about sin and leave it up to the Holy Spirit. I mean, really, I don't need to go after all the "leaves of sin," because I am trying to go right for the "root of it" and that is a sinful, dirty, nasty, rebellious heart. As Holy Hubert would say, "Bless your dirty heart." They need a new heart and as long as I preach on sin, righteousness, hell, judgment, the cross, grace and becoming Born Again...I think I will leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit and God's Word. His Word will never return Void!
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Oct 23, 2006 10:20:44 GMT -5
You know, it seems like a lot of what he does is the equal, but opposite end of the spectrum of what the modern church does. Even some good Bible teachers now have coffee shops, bookstores, large musical productions, etc to entertain the crowds. Jed seems to be using....whatever this is....to do the same, entertain the crowds.
These videos were the first time that I ever spent any time watching Jed preach and I would admit that they were only clips...not the whole thing. I would agree with RevK though....in what context can you say some of these things that make them ok. I did read Jed's book some time ago, and while it holds a pretty good psychological defense and explanation, it doesn't offer a very sound Biblical defense and explanation. I, personally, don't think that Jed is obsessed with sex (though I can see how one would think he does from listening to him). I think that he realizes that this is something that would stop a college student dead in his tracks to come over and listen. That, of course, doesn't make it Christlike.
|
|
|
Post by tbxi on Oct 24, 2006 0:31:12 GMT -5
...I don't know how I feel about it after reading his replies. He said he had no conviction from the Spirit at all from that. Jed seems to be a very kind-hearted man and I don't doubt that he is sincere. His theology is about as far from mine as it could be, but I'd still consider him a brother.
I don't have any preaching experience of my own to go off of, so I don't want to be a loudmouth about what standards people should be using. It sounded pretty bad when I saw those videos. The last one I posted, I don't think there was any excuse for that at all. But... eh. I am a little confused about this.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 24, 2006 10:34:34 GMT -5
Jed's Response:
When I responded to Jed's question, "Do you live in victory over sin?", I realized we mean different things when saying that. Anyway, most on this MB know what I mean and know me well enough to know what I mean.
What does everyone think about Jed's responses?
I still will never use the things that I quoted from his videos...I still don't think it's necessary at all...
|
|
|
Post by tbxi on Oct 24, 2006 11:47:56 GMT -5
I don't think it is either. Honestly, his responses kind of confuse me, and they don't seem to respond to everything you said.
The whole "holiness" thing... sigh. Those arguments are generally over semantics and terminology. I gather what Jed means by holiness since he's a Pelagian, but from where do you come on that, RevK?
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 25, 2006 18:56:59 GMT -5
The whole "holiness" thing... sigh. Those arguments are generally over semantics and terminology. I gather what Jed means by holiness since he's a Pelagian, but from where do you come on that, RevK? Well, I tend to believe that people who think you can become sinlessly perfect this side of Heaven have to do two things: 1) They have to lower the standard of sin- Sin is defined in four different ways if you ask me: 1 John 3:4 (Trangression of the Law), Romans 14:23 (Anything that is not of Faith), James 4:17 (Don't do the good you ought to do) and the MOST IMPORTANT ONE is Romans 3:23 (Falling Short of the Glory of God- Jesus Christ in the flesh). Now, I may be able to perfectly obey 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23, but I don't think that I will ever be able to attain to the other two. I mean who could say that they witness to EVERY SINGLE PERSON that they should? If they aren't, then they are breaking James 4:17. And I know this for sure...no matter what anyone tells me...that no one is as Holy as Jesus and no one is Holy as God is Holy (Matthew 5:48). The Greek word for sin in the N.T. is hamartia. It literally means to "miss the mark." What is the "mark" then? It is perfection...it is literally Jesus Christ and all of us fall short of him. But, usually, when someone like Jed ask if I am living in victory over sin, they generally mean am I not breaking to lists of sin in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, etc. Another thing we could look at as far as James 4:17 and being perfect is do we have 100% of each of the fruits of the Spirit 100% of the time? I know I don't. 2) They must lower God's standard of Holiness. If holiness means that I don't do the sins listed in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, then I guess I am Holy. But, what I see in Scripture is something much deeper then that. I see learning to abide in Christ. Learning to live in His presence. Seeing people the way He sees them. Always doing the perfect will of the Father at ALL Times. And when I get before Him in prayer, I cry out like Isaiah in chapter 6. I realize that I am nothing before Him. I want to literally dig a hole in the ground and hide myself from His presence. Anyone who thinks they have arrived should go get married and then we can ask their wife what she thinks about that... Anyway, this is my view on it and we have discussed this on this MB many, many times. ANd most times it proves that every involved in the discussion are NOT perfect...
|
|
|
Post by tbxi on Oct 25, 2006 20:02:20 GMT -5
I agree with that view pretty much entirely, revK... whenever people talk about sinless perfection, 1 John 1:8 comes to mind. When I hear "holiness" I think of God's holiness which nobody can really match, and so I don't claim it for myself.
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on Oct 25, 2006 21:22:25 GMT -5
Good post RevK.
I wonder how long Jesse will remain "sinless"/"perfect"/"holy" now that he has a spouse.
It ain't easy-don't you agree RevK and Biblethumper.
And just wait when those little Jesse's arrive on the scene-Oh, boy ;D
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Oct 25, 2006 21:52:09 GMT -5
I think that those who say you cannot be perfect have to say that you actually cannot obey God and cannot obey the bible.
The only people that have sin in their life are those who let sin in their life.
- Jesse
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 25, 2006 21:55:47 GMT -5
I think those that say you can be perfect need to define what they mean by perfect. - Josh Parsley EDIT: Surely no one believes in imperfect Christianty? An imperfect Christ? An imperfect Savior? Do they?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 25, 2006 22:07:55 GMT -5
(just to clarify, I was posting under Evans name)
Perfection is summed up in one word: Love.
Only God is absolutely perfect.
But Christians are to be morally perfect.
Moral perfection is when you love God entirely (which means you do not love sin at all) and love your neighbor as yourself.
If you love Christ, you will keep his commandments. That is perfection, love which keeps God's commandments.
Every Christian is loving. Every Christian keeps God's commandments. Every Christian is perfect by God's standard.
The problem is when people are stricker then God and make up a higher standard of perfection that does not come from the bible.
You either love or hate. There is no middle ground. You either love God or hate God. You either love people or hate people. If you love God and people you are morally perfect. If you hate God and hate people, you are a rebel and need Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Oct 25, 2006 22:18:55 GMT -5
Well, I didn't mean for this to turn into a discussion thread. I was just replying to something tbxi said. We will just have to respectfully disagree brother. I think that I have discussed this enough on this message board and have no desire to discuss it any further. I have searched this issue at extensively for myself and am satisfied with my conclusions... ;D
So...anyway, what did you guys think of Jed's responses to my questions?
|
|
|
Post by Rodgers on Oct 28, 2006 10:00:36 GMT -5
I do not post much on this board or any other board but I do read when I can get a chance.
I guess my question for Rev K would be what exactly do you disagree with in what Jesse has said about Love and being perfect?
I know you have discussed this with several people and I am sorry if you have already answered this question. I do not have time to read everything.
Thanks
Joe
|
|
|
Post by davidroberttennant on Dec 20, 2006 2:04:16 GMT -5
He is good at crowd control.
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on Dec 20, 2006 13:55:06 GMT -5
In our travels we have actually met more than one person whose testimony is... "Well, some years ago a man came to my campus preaching... His name was Jed Smock, have you ever heard of him?"
These are solid Christians today. One man was in the ministry and another is Liz Juliot's mother.
Not saying I agree with everything Jed does or even believes, but here are the facts.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 20, 2006 14:01:02 GMT -5
In our travels we have actually met more than one person whose testimony is... "Well, some years ago a man came to my campus preaching... His name was Jed Smock, have you ever heard of him?" These are solid Christians today. One man was in the ministry and another is Liz Juliot's mother. Not saying I agree with everything Jed does or even believes, but here are the facts. Amen Miles! We are all a piece of clay in the Potters hands.
|
|
Samer
New Member
May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering!
Posts: 6
|
Post by Samer on Dec 31, 2006 19:40:40 GMT -5
I've heard Jed four or five times at the University of Kansas. Every time, it seems about half his time is spent talking about graphic sexual things. He has a couple cables he loves to use...He tries to insert the positive plugs into each other, and wonders why they don't fit... The last time, I was able to use his presence to have a very good conversation with somebody...Asked him what he thought about all the graphic sex talk, and then went into Matthew 5:28, which I don't recall Jed mentioning anyway.
|
|
|
Post by caymen on Mar 13, 2011 20:16:39 GMT -5
Jed assumes that all students on a campus are sexual sinners. I know many old fashioned, usually homeschooled boys and girls, that would find this graphic language highly offensive, and as a parent, I would not appreciate a man, even one under the guise of a "man of God", talking to my daughter or wife in that matter. Commenting on thier breasts would definately be a problem. Jed's language goes well beyond the use of clinical terms, in the one video he speaks of lesbians "Licking them out down there" and their boyfriends "Probably have a dildo up his Anus". I think any Christian that is filled with the Holy Ghost, would feel that this kind of talk is way past the "filthy talk, "Corrupt communication", "sound speech" criteria set for Christian behavior by the Bible and certainly lacks the dignity and holy call of Titus and 1 Peter.
|
|
|
Post by caymen on Mar 13, 2011 20:28:33 GMT -5
Jed Smock defriended me today on Facebook for linking to the following webpage. I hadn't even read it but was trying to prove Bro. Copes affiliation with Jed. Apparently he didn't want people seeing this web site. www.torahandspirit.com.istemp.com/smock.htm
|
|
|
Post by tracyb777 on Apr 2, 2011 20:45:58 GMT -5
Hello. I know I'm new on the block. I do believe it is best to confront Brother Jed. Maybe, through a cloud of witnesses, Bro Jed might repent!
|
|
|
Post by tracyb777 on Apr 2, 2011 21:01:21 GMT -5
Also, as far as limitations. We were all sinners. Some of us undoubtedly worse than others. We understand what happens during fornication. Even though we might not have been homosexuals we should understand what takes place. I see no need in describing details of these sins. We know what they are, and the sinners know what they are, as well. I just simply preach against these things. I feel no need to get too descriptive. If they seem to not know what fornication is, i simply add that it is sex outside of marriage. They have no right to have sex, until they are married. That is quite clear, and no need for perverted details. I suppose for the most part I try to use Bible words as they apply. I also use non-Bible words, that are not overly descriptive. Even though medical words like penis, vagina, and anus are not necessarily profane. They are overly descriptive, and I see no need for them. Homosexual is not a Bible word, depending on your translation, I suppose. Even though it is not overly descriptive, everyone seems to know what you are talking about. I do use whore, and whoremonger. I don't use them often. I see them as powerful words, only to be used in extreme circumstances. I choose alternate words in most cases. When I go to Mardi Gras I will use those words. Those are extreme circumstances. Women walking around in the middle of the day openly and completely exposed. When you call a woman a whore through a megaphone, she will normally cover up in shame. They don't always cover up in Mardi Gras. There are some really brazen sinners there. I don't use those words often. Although they are horrible words to describe a horrible behavior. Still, I use them in reserve. I know some that choose to not use them at all. That is fine. Others, probably use them all the time. My goal is to preach the Gospel. I only use extreme words to shame sinners in extreme circumstances. Most times I don't call women whores, and they accuse me of doing it. I believe the Holy Spirit is pressing on them, and they hear whore, when I say filthy ungodly woman. When they accuse me, I sometimes ask, "Well, are you?" I suppose it comes down to discernment.
|
|
|
Post by tracyb777 on Apr 2, 2011 21:42:41 GMT -5
I define perfection as complete, lacking in nothing. I am not a sinless perfectionist. Since, the term seems to imply the impossibility of sinning in the future. I do believe we can live the remainder of our lives without ever sinning. The exception comes in, due to the continued existence of free will, and temptation.
So, we could fall to a temptation, into sin. Although, we don't have to. I like the term John Wesley used. Christian perfection. I am perfect in Christ. Meaning to be complete in Christ, lacking nothing.
As long as I continue the race, on the narrow way, then I will not sin. As soon as I stop abiding in Jesus, then I will most likely fall at some point. We abide in Jesus, and He will abide in us. As long as that relationship, continues in love, we will not fall. That is complete, lacking nothing. Perfection.
|
|