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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 20, 2007 16:06:22 GMT -5
A very good book that I have been reading is: An historical presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism from the original sources, by G. F. Wiggers Translated from the German, with notes and additions, by Rev. Ralph Emerson. This is an unbiased presentation of both views, from original sources. It's a great read. Very interesting. It's a hard book to put down. You can purchase the book here: www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=historical+presentation&sts=t&an=wiggers&y=0&x=0I looked but couldn't find it freely online anywhere.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 20, 2007 21:34:53 GMT -5
Here it is online: CLICK HEREIt seems to be a scan of the book...but better than paying $50 for it!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 20, 2007 22:07:03 GMT -5
I specifically thought that you would be the one to find it online! It's an excellent presentation of both views. (I disagree with both of them on different points, those Pelagius usually has better arguements then Augustine). But it really helps to see the history of doctrine and it's influence upon the Church.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 23, 2007 5:49:27 GMT -5
Anyone truly interested in studying theology, or theologies, should study this book.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 12, 2007 4:01:44 GMT -5
Rare & Expensive Writings of Pelagius:Pelagius' Commentaries on Romans:www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=romans&sts=t&an=Pelagius&y=0&x=0Life & Letters of Pelagius:www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=life+letters&sts=t&an=Pelagius&y=0&x=0Pelagius wrote many books. But they have been lost. Possibly destroyed. I really wish I could have read his book on freewill. Many consider Pelagius a heretic. But I don't. In fact, a Synod declared Pelagius orthodox, and so did a Pope. I don't completely agree with Pelagius. But his views on freewill, grace, and predestination seem to agree completely with the Early Greek Fathers. You could say that he represented the old school theology of the Early Church during the rising of the new school theology of Augustine. Many who think Pelagius is a heretic say so because of the many straw-man arguements against him, like saying a man can be sinless without the grace of God, etc. Pelagius never said that. In fact, he said cursed is the man who says such things. Rather, Pelagius taught perfection through God's grace - God's grace of freewill and revelation, and the indwelling Holy Ghost who instructs us. My honest opinion is that Pelagius was a holiness preacher, who disturbed Augustine extensively because Augustine had severe lust problems. Augustine went so far as to say that original sin is transfered through semen, and consists in physical lusts. Augustine once agreed with Pelagius on freewill and predestination. But he agreed in theology, without knowing Pelagius, but then later changed his views on freewill and predestination, when he started debating with Pelagius. I think Augustine, being trainned in public speech, looked for public debate. First he debated the Donatists. Then the Minichaeans. And what did he debate the Minichaeans over? Augustine debated that man had a freewill, which the minichaeans denied, and that the material was not evil, which the minicheans affirmed. But what did he later debate Pelagius on? Augustine debated that man did not have a freewill, which Pelagius affirmed. And Augustine debated that the physical body was evil, which Pelagius denied. I can't help but to think that Augustine simply loved to win public debate, and would take either side of the issue and debate it at the chance. That is the only way I can account for Augustine debating against physical evil, and for freewill, and then with someone else debating in favor of physical evil, against freewill.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 12, 2007 18:51:37 GMT -5
Isn't it amazing what you learn when you look into history for yourself instead of just believing what people tell you? I have found some of the same things that you have found about Pelagius when I looked into it for myself. David Bercot said that after Pelagius died and after the pope who deemed Pelagius unheretical died, that Augustine had much of Pelagius' teachings burned and then started a political agenda to get him called heretical. He couldn't get Pelagius called a heretic while he was alive because 2 or 3 and 1 pope concluded that he wasn't.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 12, 2007 23:56:15 GMT -5
It is interesting what you find out when you study history for yourself. I was told that Calvinism and Augustinianism was "orthodox" until I found out that the Early Greek Fathers before those other two fellows actually said the opposite!
Pelagius himself had many supporters. He was very wise and well educated, even more educated then Augustine, because Augustine knew only Latin while Pelagius knew Latin and Greek (which made a HUGE difference in bible translations and therefore interpretation).
Augustine could not Augustinianize the East, only the West, because the East Oriential Fathers all agreed with Pelagius and could not call him a heretic.
Pelagius simply said:
- Man has freewill - God's grace is for the pardon of sin - God's instruction and enlightening, by the Spirit of truth, is so man would use his freewill aright - God's predestination is according to foreknowledge - Christ died for all the world
(Nothing heredical about that!)
Augustine however invented the doctrines of:
- Total Inability - Unconditional Election - Limited Atonement - Irresistable Grace - Perseverence of the Saints
It was Augustine, not Pelagius, who was unorthodox when compared to what the Church had believed up until that time. It seems Pelagius was just one of the last from that Early Church era to defend the truths they held to for so long, against the rise of this new school theology.
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Post by joem on Jul 13, 2007 8:19:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Rev, I read half of it already and am enjoying it.
The more I study Pelagius, the more I like him and his contemporaries. I believe he was one of a few seeking to hold fast to biblical truth in the face of Augustine's attempt to harmonize his philosophy with the teachings of the church. As I learn, I am able to understand where we actually received much of what is considered orthodox doctrine, and it often has nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with trying to reconcile pagan notions of deity and humanity with Christianity.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 14, 2007 5:59:10 GMT -5
Here is a very interesting article: The Life of St. Morgan of Wales
AKA
Pelagiuswww.gospeltruth.net/stmorgan.htm----------------------------------------------------- And these are some other rare and expensive books, which can be found at abe.com Evans, R. F.; Four Letters of Pelagius, London, 1968 Evans, R. F.; Pelagius: Inquiries and Reappraisals, London, 1968 Ferguson, J.; Pelagius: A Historical and Theological Study, Cambridge, 1956 Nicholson, M. Forthomme; "Celtic Theology: Pelagius", An Introduction to Celtic Christianity, edited by James P. Mackey, Edinburgh, 1995 Rees, B. R.; Pelagius: A Reluctant Heretic, Suffolk, 1988
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Post by joem on Jul 16, 2007 10:52:27 GMT -5
Great article Jesse, I appreciate the link. I hope to purchase his commentary on Romans in the near future and thoroughly study it. It seems that he is in agreement with much of what Dunn has written concerning a "New Perspective on Paul" which is actually an old perspective being uncovered and revisited. Understanding free-will and predestination hinges on our understanding of Paul and the climate in which Romans was written.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 16, 2007 14:28:21 GMT -5
Great article Jesse, I appreciate the link. I hope to purchase his commentary on Romans in the near future and thoroughly study it. It seems that he is in agreement with much of what Dunn has written concerning a "New Perspective on Paul" which is actually an old perspective being uncovered and revisited. Understanding free-will and predestination hinges on our understanding of Paul and the climate in which Romans was written. Grace and Peace, Joe I am very much interested in Pelagius' commentary as well as this Dunn man that you have mentioned Joe... Here is something that I just found and will be reading over in the upcoming days... www.thepaulpage.com/
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Post by joem on Jul 17, 2007 6:43:35 GMT -5
Rev,
Dunn is probably the foremost biblical scholar of our time and is doing some great work on the historical understandings of Jesus and the apostle Paul. In his book Jesus Remembered, Dunn explains exactly how the study of scriptures has changed among scholars over the years, and resulted in the Americanized Jesus that most people preach today. The book is a hard read as it was written for scholars and assumes that we know some of the basic methods of interpretation and the various approaches to scripture that changed throughout history. I have spent about a year and a half going through it so far, pausing to learn background information as necessary. The page you linked is a great place to start. The New Perspective basically shows that we read Paul from the eyes of Luther and the Reformers and have misunderstood his writings as a result. Viewing Jews as we see Orthodox Jews today (believing that the Jews thought they could be saved by keeping the Law), and assuming western ideas and ideologies were in place in an Eastern world, contributes to a tradition that has replaced a historical perspective (Early Church) that was once considered orthodox and is now deemed heretical. Those who have cast their lot with the Reformed crowd have no small amount of animosity towards the New Perspective researchers such as James Dunn. Knowing that you enjoy reading the ECF's, I know you will enjoy studying this as well.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by joem on Jul 17, 2007 8:28:22 GMT -5
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 17, 2007 9:51:30 GMT -5
I am really excited and looking forward to reading this!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 24, 2008 2:07:30 GMT -5
BUMP...I said I would...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 27, 2008 20:17:52 GMT -5
This book was very good. I've been thinking about reading it again for a second time. The debate between Augustine and Pelagius marked a very massive turning point in Christian history and theology. It was when Gnosticism finally found some acceptance within the Church in a semi version. And Semi-Gnosticism has been in the Church ever since.
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 27, 2008 23:28:25 GMT -5
Great article Joe, I have to read it again.
The meaning of "covenantal nomism" is that human obedience is not construed as the means of entering into God's covenant. That cannot be earned; inclusion within the covenant body is by the grace of God. Rather, obedience is the means of maintaining one's status within the covenant. And with its emphasis on divine grace and forgiveness, Judaism was never a religion of legalism.
This is from the end of the 10th para. It is excellent at pointing out the problem in our churches. We want to have fun instead of obedience.
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Post by joem on Feb 28, 2008 7:58:09 GMT -5
Great article Joe, I have to read it again. The meaning of "covenantal nomism" is that human obedience is not construed as the means of entering into God's covenant. That cannot be earned; inclusion within the covenant body is by the grace of God. Rather, obedience is the means of maintaining one's status within the covenant. And with its emphasis on divine grace and forgiveness, Judaism was never a religion of legalism.This is from the end of the 10th para. It is excellent at pointing out the problem in our churches. We want to have fun instead of obedience. John, This is a great study that has cleared up many inherited misconceptions that I held to for years which assumes a works vs. grace mentality, much like the response Dan just gave. I am a couple years into studying the NPP and have been blessed greatly by it. Jews never thought they were saved by works, that was the crowd in Luther's day. Faith and faithfulness were never separated until western minds tried to separate faith and works. This is what James was talking about. Believers claiming they were faithful but their lives weren't a reflection of their proclamation. Faith and faithfulness are inseparable. Dan, This article is talking about the Jews in Paul's day, not Christians in Luther's day. If the covenant people did not participate in the sacrifices or observe the various ceremonial laws, they could be put out of the Jewish community. They didn't just have to have faith in God who instituted the ceremonies, they actually had to participate. Given that God's covenant was with the Jewish people and not every individual Jew, being ousted from the covenant people was a big deal. If you decide to study this subject, it will take quite some time but will be well worth it. Just remember, this is about understanding the situation in Paul's day so we can understand what he wrote. You can't spend just a few days on this one, it will take time to work through. I figure another couple years and I will have only begun to cover 50% of the material in Jesus Remembered alone. Grace and Peace, Joe
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 10:47:31 GMT -5
Pelagianism:
Among Augustine’s writings about Pelagius:
“A NECESSITY arose which compelled me to write against the new heresy of Pelagius. Our previous opposition to it was confined to sermons and conversations, as occasion suggested, and according to our respective abilities and duties; but it had not yet assumed the shape of a controversy in writing. Certain questions were then submitted to me [by our brethren] at Carthage, to which I was to send them back answers in writings: I accordingly wrote first of all three books, under the title, "On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins," in which I mainly discussed the baptism of infants because of original sin, and the grace of God by which we are justified, that is, made righteous; but no man in this life can so keep the commandments which prescribe holiness of life, as to be beyond the necessity of using this prayer for his sins: "Forgive us our trespasses." It is in direct opposition to these principles that they have devised their new heresy.” (St. Augustine, A Treatise On the Merits and Forgiveness Of Sins and On the Baptism Of Infants)
Pelagius was excommunicated in 418 A.D. Pelagianism was declared heretical at Council of Ephesus (431 A.D.).
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
Posts: 65
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 10:52:27 GMT -5
"Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was comming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me...I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul -- when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron...One week night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, "How did you come to be a Christian?" I sought the Lord. "But how did you come to seek the Lord?" The truth flashed across my mind in a moment -- I should not have sought Him unless there had come some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How come I came to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a momment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day; and I desire to make this my constant confession, 'I ascribe my change wholly to God'." CHARLES SPURGEON, Autobiography
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
Posts: 65
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 11:01:17 GMT -5
Pelagianism Sermon 131 of St. Augustine, September 23, 417 A.D.: 10. …”For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and wishing to establish their own, they have not submitted to the righteousness of God.” My brethren, have compassion with me. When you find such men, do not hide them; have no misdirected mercy. Refute those who contradict, and those who resist bring to us. For already two councils on this question have been sent to the apostolic see; and replies have also come from there. The cause is finished; would that the error might be sometime finished also!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 28, 2008 11:49:52 GMT -5
THE PELAGIAN HERESIES
- The Doctrine of Free Will: Free will was not lost at the fall. God did not punish all of mankind, as Augustine supposed, by taking away free will. All men are born capable of either obeying or disobeying God.
- The Doctrine that Sin is a Choice: The Pelagians disagreed with the Augustinians who taught that sin was a substance of the body and the soul. The Pelagians said that all sin was an abuse of free will, not a necessity of nature.
- The Doctrine of Sinless Perfection: The Pelagians said that all sin was optional and avoidable because God has granted man free will. Therefore they argued for the possibility of sinless perfection.
THE PELAGIAN GRACES
- The Grace of Creation: This is when God gave man his nature of intelligence, emotions, and free will.
- The Grace of Revelation: This is the instruction and enlightening of God which enables man to live a pure and holy life.
- The Grace of Redemption: This is the forgiveness of God when He grants the remission of sins by faith alone.
The Pelagians argued that it was impossible to live holy without the grace of God, but that we can live holy because of the grace of God.
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
Posts: 65
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 12:05:56 GMT -5
Pelagius believed that grace consists of free choice teaching and example. Christ’s teaching illuminates and Christ’s example helps to break the habit of sinning. Grace is a "law and teaching" and the knowledge of the law is essential for sinlessness. Furthermore grace is offered equally to all; God gives no special favours to some. Man advances in holiness through the merit of correct free-choice alone. Predestination is only God’s foreknowledge of whether we will believe and the kind of life we will lead; God’s call and election in no way effects man’s free choice. Pelagius does not view grace as an inner-working divine energy, in other words the Holy Spirit. The role of Spirit is to reveal the will of God and the future glory so that we desire heavenly rather than earthly things.
Pelagius view that grace is given equally to all is refuted by Scripture: grace is given to some people and not to others (James 4:6); it is given in different measure to different people (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 3:18); it is described as offering help in times of need received directly from God (2 Cor 12:9; Heb 13:9); our hearts are established by grace (Heb 13:9). Grace is clearly depicted as an addition to any natural facility and as changing the Christian internally.
The idea that the way of salvation is by our adherence to New Testament Law, taught and lived by Christ is, however, repudiated (Gal 2:16; Eph 2:9). Paul’s contention with the Galatians was over circumcision which was not on the agenda of Pelagius. However circumcision represents a return to a form of religion where the law must be kept apart from the grace of Jesus Christ (Gal 5:2-3) and in this it represents a Pelagian tendency. Against this against this Paul sets a life sanctified in the Spirit received by grace (Gal 5:25; 3:2). Attempts apart from the grace of God to obey the law are self-defeating resulting in worse sin (Matt 23:15; Rom 7:7-11; 1 Cor 15:56). Therein lies additional evidence for the fallenness of human nature: when we are presented with the holy law of God, sin and death are the result. God’s solution is the grace of Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection not only for justification but also sanctification (Ez 12:20; Heb 2:11). 1 Corinthians 1:30 - "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."
Pelagius believed in the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, therefore in terms of initial justification he might be thought of as Protestant. Concerning sanctification (or fulfillment of justification in Catholic terms), however, all Pelagius offered was the free-will of man together with the Law of God and example of Christ. This is the poison chalice of Pelagianism: after forgiveness God has left man to his own devices to work out his own salvation with only the Law of God as comfort; the Holy Spirit does not work to transform (Rom 5:5) but merely inspires by revelation; the grace of God is not received sacramentally to change us internally (John 6:51-56); we are not allowed to be weak and seek God’s grace (2 Cor 12:19; Heb 4:16), we must be strong and obey.
The essence of Pelagianism seems to be a belief that what God has already provided, either in human resources or Christ’s revelation and example will be sufficient to live the Christian life. Faith (Jas 1:5-8) and a day to day reliance on God’s grace and mercy are not required. This allows a man to be essentially independent from God; a Christian may have entered the promised land but has forgotten his Redeemer (Deut 8:18-19). It was Adam’s sin to rely on the provision of God’s revelation at the cost of a trusting relationship with his Creator (Gen 3:5).
Augustine obviously had more influence with the councils and the popes yet it would seem that we are to follow the palagian methodology for salvation that we would be left to drink a dangerous theological concoction: The Pelagianism position for Christology (the doctrine of the two natures, God and man, of Christ) lies in the possible implication that without original sin and a naturally corrupt will, man does not need a Savior so much as a good example ..."(4)
Pelagius minimized the profound change that results from regeneration and the division of the human race into the saved and the unsaved. Concerning God, it minimizes or makes secondary God's plan and implementation of salvation from before the foundation of the world. Concerning Christ, it reduces the greatness of His victory over sin, death, and hell. Concerning the Holy Spirit, it reduces or eliminates His role in regeneration (John 3:1-17) and sanctification (Galatians 2:20).
Reference Bromiley, Geoffrey W., Historical Theology: An Introduction, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Company
Berkhof, L.., The History of Christian Doctrine, Banner of Truth, London, 1969.
Evans, R.T., Pelagius: Inquires and Reappraisals, A & C Black, London, 1968.
McGrath, A.E., Christian Theology: An Introduction (3rd ed.), Blackwell, Oxford, 2001.
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
Posts: 65
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 12:36:55 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 28, 2008 12:46:04 GMT -5
When dealing with Pelagianism, I recommend going to original sources. Pelagius is the most misrepresented individual in Church History, and Pelagianism is the most slandered. For example I was told by others that "Pelagius taught that you can earn salvation" or "Pelagianism taught that you can be holy without the grace of God". But when I read the actual writings of Pelagius, I saw that he said we cannot earn forgiveness but that it is by faith alone, and that we can only be holy because of the grace of God. I recommend the following for anyone who is interested in studying Pelagius: - An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism by Dr Wiggers - Commentary on the Romans - By Pelagius - Pelagius: Life and Letters - By Rees And this website has some writings of Pelagius and other Pelagians: www.seanmultimedia.com/Pie_homepage.html
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truth2liberty
Junior Member
?God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.?
Posts: 65
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Post by truth2liberty on Feb 28, 2008 13:09:36 GMT -5
I will commit to read as many of these original writing as possible as well as the others noted. I do have a Augustinian Reformed Pentecostal bias and I commit to keep my eyes and ears open to truth as revealed by the Spirit of Truth and Confirmed through the Word of the Lord.
Salvation is By Grace (causation) through Faith (instrumentation) and is a (FREE) Gift of God, not of or From yourself, Not by works so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9 (paraphrased)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 28, 2008 16:34:25 GMT -5
One of the faults of Pelagianism, admittingly, is that they did not properly recognize an inherited physical depravity. And one of the faults of Augustinianism was that it confused physical depravity with moral depravity. Pelagius said that we are born neither morally nor physically fallen. While Augustine's original sin doctrine said that physical depravity is moral depravity.
Charles Finney later properly distinguished between physical and moral depravity and took the middle road between these two extremes. Finney taught that we inherit a fallen body from Adam which inclines us towards gratification and tempts us to sin, but that moral depravity comes from our own free will. This is what the bible teaches.
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