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Post by tomah on Jan 28, 2006 7:02:17 GMT -5
Just wondering a few things about seperation, especially to those of you who believe in sinless perfection.
Here in Northern Ireland we a have a wonderful Christian heritage. We are often called 'The Bible Belt'. It would be true to say that even those apostasy is rife, there is still a faithful witness probably no further than 15 miles from any one place.
It is quite common (less so nowadays) that genuine Christians disagree in going to the cinema, drinking any kind of alcohol, wearing earings and excessive make-up, smoking, watching movies and even having a television and many other things.
Is this the case with you?
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Post by ejuliot on Jan 28, 2006 13:18:21 GMT -5
This is about television and movies: My parents raised me on PG and R rated movies, so I was extremely desensitized to everything in them. When I went away to college my family stopped watching movies and television. When I came home for the summer it was a hard adjustment for me to stop watching them but when I actually watched a movie again I was cringing and shocked at how sin filled it was. I see it this way, if I am supposed to live holy as God commanded then I should not be watching unholy things. This sounds, for lack of a better word, really childish, but try to imagine Jesus Christ watching survivor, or whatever movie is out now. The fact is that he would not because they are filled with blasphemies, fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, covetousness, idolatry, and every other sin. As I said before I was desensitized to these things but when I stopped watching them I began to grasp what God considers to be holy. Proverbs 18:13 says that " the fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." If we are to hate evil why on earth would we sit and watch it? I cannot out of a good conscience watch these things. Or even listen to it. Worldly music is the same way. On top of all of this, it really is a waste of time. I believe it was Mark Cahill who said something about, when we stand before God on judgment day will we have spent more time watching movies and television than we have preaching the gospel? I wonder how many people spend more time watching television than they do reading their Bible or praying. When you watch television you are just filling yourself with "the world" so if you watch more television than you spend time with God that means that you are going to reflect the world more than you reflect Christ. I know this to be true because I am a living example of this happening. I hope that helps you out just a bit. ;D
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Post by tomah on Jan 28, 2006 17:17:22 GMT -5
Found the same to be true in my own life sister. Amen
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 29, 2006 0:40:54 GMT -5
My wife and I do not have a television in our house and have not ever since we have been married. I never wasted any time watching TV, movies, sports, listening to secular music since about 1992. Have no interest in it. Nothing but Bible reading, prayer, and reading Christian books (now the BB also) around our house. I have no clue what is playing at the theaters or who any of the athletes are in sports. I think this should be the normal experience of Christians.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 29, 2006 0:42:17 GMT -5
My wife and I do not have a television in our house and have not ever since we have been married. I never wasted any time watching TV, movies, sports, listening to secular music since about 1992. Have no interest in it. Nothing but Bible reading, prayer, and reading Christian books (now the BB also) around our house. I have no clue what is playing at the theaters or who any of the athletes are in sports. I think this should be the normal experience of Christians.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 29, 2006 0:44:48 GMT -5
One other thing I should have mentioned. We very much believe women (and men) should dress modest. My wife wears loose clothing that covers about everything except for forearms and ankles in public. This is just the way Christians should dress period.
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Post by Evangelista on Jan 30, 2006 8:12:20 GMT -5
ejuliot,
I definitely agree with you. Movies and TV are such a waste of time, and not only that, they are filled with all these sins you mentioned in your post. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. When I talk to other Christians at my church and other places, they say I'm wrong for saying that and that there is nothing wrong with watching this filth that's portrayed in these movies. I applaud you for your stance in this area. Praise God! I pray more Christians would open their hearts to what the Spirit of God is saying.
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Post by ejuliot on Jan 30, 2006 16:52:00 GMT -5
I was talking about this with my roommate yesterday, she believes she is a Christian but she bears no fruit. I told her how I thought living in the world was OK until I began to understand God's holiness. I think it was Leonard Ravenhill who said we need a vision of God's holiness. I know that when I caught a glimpse of God's holiness the fear of the Lord was instilled in me. I think that the church does not know what holiness is and they do not fear God. Proverbs 9:10 says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." And Proverbs 11:30 says "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." If the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom it is no wonder why the "church" has no desire to save souls because he that wins souls is wise. If they lack the fear of the LORD, they lack wisdom, so they will not win souls. And if they lack the fear of the LORD they will not depart from evil because Proverbs 16:6 says "By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. " They will not depart from evil or live holy if they do not fear God.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 30, 2006 19:58:04 GMT -5
Great revelation sister. Thanks for that!
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Post by bullhornbob on Jan 31, 2006 1:03:58 GMT -5
Give that preacher-girl a bullhorn, and sound that off in the ears of the whole church.
I pray more will hunger after God's truth as you have, ejuliot.
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Post by tomah on Jan 31, 2006 14:00:10 GMT -5
Yes sister, a loud and lofty AMEN to that short but powerful study!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 25, 2006 20:25:39 GMT -5
I praise God for each one of your outlooks on TV and other areas in the world that so entangle Christians! There needs to be more of a message of this in the church today. I know what you are saying sister when you mentioned talking about this with people at church, they look at you as if you crawled out from under a rock! I've had this experience, too.
When I came to the Lord Jesus three years ago or so it was like a cleansing fire consumed me as the smoking, drinking, TV/movie watching and any other absolute worthless behavior that did not even start to bring glory to God was burned up as I turned from them and they had no more value to them. One thing I like to think of is the difference between the time in which Jesus lived in and the current times and how different they are when it comes to worldly distractions. The Word of God says we are to be content with a meal to eat and clothes on our back.
1 Tim. 6:7-9 "For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction."
We are not citizens of this world, so why would we even desire the things of this world? Do we really need that new ring? Why?
Can you live without the newest tech stuff? Why not?
Do you need a new car? Why?
The scriptures say in the early church that they shared everything with everyone and no one was in need. That's the move of the Holy Spirit on surrendered lives! Why do you have so much stuff in your garage? Is there someone in the body that needs something? That $100,000.00 you have in the bank, for what? As if your going to live for the next thirty years? Who said? and this while there are those in need in the body? What have we become? The need for holiness is wide spread and not just in what DON'T DO but also in what we SHOULD DO.
1 John 3:18 "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
I thank God for you!
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 9:48:04 GMT -5
amen
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Post by Jules on Apr 26, 2006 10:38:04 GMT -5
Simplifying our lives is certainly the best way to serve GOd. We so get entangled with unbelief, which comes from the worries of the world that choke out our fruitfulness. Mark Cahill is a big advocate of living simply, and has some great sermons about it. You can listen online to some of his stuff on his website. I too am challenged to not spend time in activities that have no eternal value...but that becomes difficult since some things (even tent making as Paul did) are required simply to survive and live, and some things are good and are for our pleasure. I don't know the blanace there, but I do know to avoid extremes, which I try to do. SOmetimes I wonder if taking my son to Little League baseball is a waste of time. Sure, it builds character and teamwork, and he has fun. But, in the long run..who cares? SHould I care about those things? So I have tried to incoporate some evangelism into it and somehow give it some eternal value...if I apply this to almost any "worldy" activity it can become something that is fruit bearing and service to the Lord. TV obviously has no eternal value and is a tool of the devil. As for Micah's comment on dress...I agree. Although I do wear pants and jeans still - but not really shorts anymore. Esp on the streets. And I try to wear closed toed shoes and not sandals. Although, when you have men hitting on you WHILE you are telling them to repent or they will burn in hell, you see that every little thing can distract from the gospel. My dress while I am sharing with men is critical. And although I dress modestly, there are still times men will flirt, touch, etc. But that is an entirely different thread..I'm sure the men on this board get hit on by women they are sharing with as well. Well, perhaps not Miles who wants to find a submissive and cooking wife just teasing Miles....I'm sure you get it too
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 26, 2006 10:54:18 GMT -5
What is "holy dess?"
I know some groups say you should always ware 'nice' clothes. Some say only 'plain' clothes.
I know some Anabaptist-type brethen that have some views on the subject... I'll share some.
Men should have a beard because it is natural. If God gave it to you, let it grow. They should ware pants because some women might find looking at a mans legs attractive, which might bring lust. Long sleves are usually the norm. If it's warm you can roll them up.
Women should ware a dress. Here is an analogy they have used. Hot, cold, lukewarm. If a women is cold (not correct) she will be waring shorts or skirts. Hot (correct) will be a long dress. Lukewarm is pants. They should ware a 'plain' dress at that. Nothing fancy. No makeup, braided hair, or jewlry. A headcovering at all times. Long hair of course.
There is an overview of what they think. What do you guys/gals think?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 26, 2006 12:18:06 GMT -5
What is "holy dess?" I know some groups say you should always ware 'nice' clothes. Some say only 'plain' clothes. I know some Anabaptist-type brethen that have some views on the subject... I'll share some. Men should have a beard because it is natural. If God gave it to you, let it grow. They should ware pants because some women might find looking at a mans legs attractive, which might bring lust. Long sleves are usually the norm. If it's warm you can roll them up. Women should ware a dress. Here is an analogy they have used. Hot, cold, lukewarm. If a women is cold (not correct) she will be waring shorts or skirts. Hot (correct) will be a long dress. Lukewarm is pants. They should ware a 'plain' dress at that. Nothing fancy. No makeup, braided hair, or jewlry. A headcovering at all times. Long hair of course. There is an overview of what they think. What do you guys/gals think? I think this is such an important issue, especially in the church these days. The Lord Jesus told us to be careful to not cause someone to sin (my paraphrase). I've heard it taught that the way in which we dress, if in a very revealing way, could be seen in the same way as one of the things a prostitute does...she lures a person into sin by her seductive dress. This can also be said about how we men dress, too. Tank tops, muscle shirts, shorts, no shirt, etc., all should be avoided and not in a Christian's collection of choices to wear. If we cause another to sin we will be held accountable for that sin. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with dressing moderately, especially if we are called out because that should something that comes "naturally" to us believers. Amen?
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Post by Jules on Apr 26, 2006 17:44:23 GMT -5
I think dress (esp for women) falls into the category of - if convicted on it, then stop, as it will be sin because it doesn't come from faith. Like the meat-eating analogy by Paul...if eating meat causes my brother to stumble, even though I have "freedom" (i.e. no convictions) about eating meat, I will not eat meat so they won't stumble.
Do I understand this correctly? So, I have personally NOT been convicted about wearing pants, but I have been with certain blouses, shorts, skirts with slits a certain length, etc. So for me, it would be sin to wear any of those things. I don't judge other Christian women who still wear such things, but I do pray for them. But, if I see that it is causing a brother to stumble I go to the woman and point it out as a gentle rebuke. Some things are obvious: low cut blouses for instance. No Christian woman should be caught DEAD wearing a low cut blouse showing cleavage, EVER. So I would feel absolutely OK walking up to one and telling her she was causing others to sin. Might as well haul a millstone around with her.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 26, 2006 18:00:34 GMT -5
I think dress (esp for women) falls into the category of - if convicted on it, then stop, as it will be sin because it doesn't come from faith. Like the meat-eating analogy by Paul...if eating meat causes my brother to stumble, even though I have "freedom" (i.e. no convictions) about eating meat, I will not eat meat so they won't stumble. Do I understand this correctly? So, I have personally NOT been convicted about wearing pants, but I have been with certain blouses, shorts, skirts with slits a certain length, etc. So for me, it would be sin to wear any of those things. I don't judge other Christian women who still wear such things, but I do pray for them. But, if I see that it is causing a brother to stumble I go to the woman and point it out as a gentle rebuke. Some things are obvious: low cut blouses for instance. No Christian woman should be caught DEAD wearing a low cut blouse showing cleavage, EVER. So I would feel absolutely OK walking up to one and telling her she was causing others to sin. Might as well haul a millstone around with her. Jules, Yes that is the right understanding of the Corinthians passage. I want to say to you I appreciate your convictions sister. They are refreshing to say the least and the Lord will bless you for your obedience to His Word. God bless you and your family.
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Post by Jules on Apr 26, 2006 22:51:06 GMT -5
my bluntness gets me in trouble at times...not with the Lord, so I really don't care. Tonight I asked a 20 year old guy who just got saved if the girl he brought to home group bible study was his girlfriend, and if so, was she a believer. He received it well, in fact, he had already been convicted to avoid company that corrupts, as he is striving to seek the Lord. It was refreshing that he didn't take it poorly, as I hardly know the guy, but felt led to speak to him about it. If I can just STAY in the Spirit I'd do well and not put my foot in my mouth! The dress attire thing is one of my strongest convictions concerning women. Men are so visually stimulated, even Christian men, and we should NEVER do anything that may cause them to stumble. But women know that about men and that is WHY they dress the way they do, even self professed CHristian women. It's all about having control...a rebellious spirit is as what? Divination. I tell women that all the time too. I think most women dislike me
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 26, 2006 23:45:45 GMT -5
Good job Jules, that needs to be done. Many of the older women (I know you are young) are not doing their spiritual jobs and are not correcting the younger women on the way they dress.
It is about control and rebellion.
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Post by Jules on Apr 27, 2006 13:44:43 GMT -5
I'm 34, but I have no problem even telling an OLDER woman (who should seriously know better) to dress appropriately. The older women who do it are even more vain...they want to feel young so they dress young, but young or old, it is all sinful.
I even tell women on the street. I told one women during Fat Tuesday celebration on 6th Street in Austin that if she showed her breasts to the group of 25 men waiting for her to (I did this in front of the men) that she would be causing them to sin by lusting after her, and she would give an account of it before God. She looked ashamed and said she didn't want to do that, thanked me and walked away. The men were FURIOUS and so I ran out of there as fast as I could! She was the ONLY women who didn't though...I spoke to several and they said to mind my own business, etc. Typical for the harlots they are.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 27, 2006 15:24:27 GMT -5
Our Senior Pastor and I were at the pulpit one Sunday and a woman on our front pew was wearing a skirt where we LITERALLY had to turn our eyes or sin by looking. I asked Brian after service, "Did you see that?" He said, "Yes, I did." Next Sunday was different as Brian preached on medesty, referring to he and I having to turn our eyes away from "the front pew" (she sat there each Sunday). Needless to say, she got all offended, left and is now Anti-Charismatic/Anti Pentecostal.... blah blah blah. Sure, Brian could have went privately...but to a Believer claiming to be saved for 10-15 years? If a so-called Believer in unashamed to show their nakedness PUBLICALLY then I'll be unashamed to say something to their faces PUBLICALLY If one claims to be a Believer for 10-15 years etc etc then something is amiss if they can dress like a tramp. Oh, yeah... hanging out in public swimming areas is ungodly just as watching women half naked on TV is ungodly. New Believers may for a time do these things, but a soundly converted individual WILL forsake wickedness, and this INCLUDES the very appearance of evil.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 27, 2006 17:18:54 GMT -5
Hmmm..... How far does one take this, though? I mean, in some Muslim countries women have to wear all of those garments for the same reason. So is it contextual? How do you decide what's appropriate to show? What if there is simply one person who may be tempted into sin by the way you dress?
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 27, 2006 17:45:29 GMT -5
Hmmm..... How far does one take this, though? I mean, in some Muslim countries women have to wear all of those garments for the same reason. So is it contextual? How do you decide what's appropriate to show? What if there is simply one person who may be tempted into sin by the way you dress? It is called discernment. It comes from being filled with the holy spirit. That is why no one expects a non-believer to live by the same priciples that a Christian does because you don't have the holy spirit.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 27, 2006 17:46:50 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 27, 2006 19:29:28 GMT -5
I see. So it's "right because I say it's right," right?
Edit: I'm just asking for some examples to go by. Maybe ask for your advice on a couple of scenarios I've encountered where this could be applicable.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 27, 2006 20:58:15 GMT -5
Post the scenarios and we will tell you what we think.
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Post by Jules on Apr 28, 2006 0:30:00 GMT -5
I see. So it's "right because I say it's right," right? Edit: I'm just asking for some examples to go by. Maybe ask for your advice on a couple of scenarios I've encountered where this could be applicable. yes..what are the scenarios? Some sickos are turned on simply by sandals and painted toes. I think the obvious things are common sense: no low cut blouses, etc. If you can see a good picture of what that person would look like naked just by the way the clothing fits, or doesn't fit, then don't wear it. Nothing too short, too tight, etc.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 28, 2006 0:40:37 GMT -5
But you see, Jules, there is no such thing as true common sense. First thing I learned in my first engineering class.
I'll go back to the first example I cited. The Muslim culture. Should all women in the countries that require it wear the full-covering outfits?
And as you've intimated, some people have fetishes. Things that they are turned on by that other people may find weird. Should actions be taken in those cases to keep them from sinning?
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Post by Jules on Apr 28, 2006 1:08:31 GMT -5
But you see, Jules, there is no such thing as true common sense. First thing I learned in my first engineering class. I'll go back to the first example I cited. The Muslim culture. Should all women in the countries that require it wear the full-covering outfits? And as you've intimated, some people have fetishes. Things that they are turned on by that other people may find weird. Should actions be taken in those cases to keep them from sinning? when it comes to your attention that someone is turned on, then you stop it. It is sin. You are causing someone else to stumble. Common sense is COMMON sense if you are a believer. It's called the Holy Spirit because He is common to all believers inthat He resides in them. If you're lost, then you have no "common" sense because you do not have the SPirit of God. That is why true believers are in unity with such things. There is only division when there is an absence of the Spirit. waiting for those scenarios...
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