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Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 20:51:12 GMT -5
I'm wondering, for those who believe in predestination and say that man doesn't make a willfull choice... How do you explain a false convert? I was just thinking about this a a horrid thought came to mind... What if they were a "wanta-be" but not chosen? Now we would all agree that is nothing of God's character. But how do you explain false converts and one who is a hypocrite- saying they are a Christian but are not? A hypocrite is a goat. A false convert can be either a goat or sheep. A false convert is really only a term used by man for himself or others, not by God. Because God converts no man falsely of course. But when we examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, we may come up with the answer that we were a false convert for some time - that is, we thought we had repented and were converted, but we really weren't. It was this step, for me anyway, realizing that I was not truly regenerated, that led to me being soundly saved. Now, as someone who believes in election, I found out LATER that all along God had chosen me, but I just didn't realize it until a certain point. I picture it as something of adoption. If a child is adopted, they may know early on that they are, but in some cases it it years later. But they don't know it from birth. And it was years before I realized I was God's child before the creation of the world, that He had chosen me in Christ and adopted me into his family. I know that is confusing, even for me, but that is how I make sense of my own testimony. Sort of
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Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 20:54:00 GMT -5
There are some false converts that will always be false converts, ultimately goats. But there are some false converts that will come to a saving knowledge of Christ, repent, be born again, etc. It is THOSE that are the sheep. But they themselves don't know this until after the fact. A false convert (one whi thinks they are saved when they are not) who never repents is going to be the one who says to Jesus "Lord, Lord" and then is told to depart becasue they are a worker of iniquity.
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Post by Grant on Mar 23, 2006 23:45:35 GMT -5
I also wonder why on earth GOD would command believers to try to persuade all men everywhere to believe on the name of Jesus considering that many of those preached to would NOT be of the "elect" (as a Calvinist would suggest)... which means believers would be trying to persuade against GOD's will since His will would be for those NOT to be saved. Wouldn't this command by GOD be contradicting His own character and will? GOD will never do anything that goes against the greater good, which is Him: His value and His purpose. wow Grant, you're gonna make me dig out a bigger thinkin' cap there brother! Good question...I don't see it so much as going against God's will because he didn't tell us to only preach to the elect, because we don't know who they are. There must be something to the reason he gave us a broad command with a narrow result. But, I don't think I am ever to persuade anyway, that is the job of the Spirit. (and it isn't so much pursuasion but conviction or hardening) Don't put on too big a thinking cap cause my hat collection doesn't get too big. Correct me if I'm wrong, but persuasion is essential to evangelism... and scriptural. Here are a few: Acts 28:23 Acts 28:24 2 Cor 5:11
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Post by Juli on Mar 24, 2006 1:22:16 GMT -5
My question would be: who actually "woos" and pursuades people to repentance? Us, or the Spirit? If you say both, what exactly is our part and what is His part?
Yes, the word persuade is in those verses, so there is an element of it in evengelism, thank you for pointing that out. But I would ask, is it MAN persuading or the Spirit IN man persuading? There is a big difference, and our answer determines who gets the glory for the conversation, don't you think? If I say I persuaded Anton LaVey (founder of satanic church) to renounce his beliefs, repent, and trust Christ, then that would be quite something, eh? I guess I would just never actually use the word persuasion when it comes to evangelism in order to avoid the possibility that someone might think it was their responsibility and all the burden was on them (as would be the glory if the person converted)
balance it all with these verses:
2Co 2:17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.
1Co 2:1-5 "And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."
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Post by tomah on Mar 24, 2006 9:33:58 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Grant on Mar 24, 2006 12:10:47 GMT -5
Juli, I appreciate you bringing those up to keep this in check. Now how I read the verses you listed is that Paul was recognizing it is not by his wisdom to prove GOD but by proof in his testimony and his sincerity (passion) of the truth. We all know GOD brings the conviction unto repentance, I hope never to boast of such myself, but we are messengers, proclaiming the message to which we must put every effort into persuading them to recognize His truth and good news. It is His Spirit within us that draws them through the words we speak, emotions we express, testimonies we share. So yes, Scripture says it is us who persuades and the Spirit who convicts. We do have a part in all this... and it is a big responsibility... but if we blow it, GOD is big enough to make it work for His good. We do, as children of GOD, have a great responsibility, and honor I might add, to be a part of bringing others to His saving grace. Yes we can blow it, but we aren't to feel guilty since we have the hope and knowledge that He can make all things work for His good, even our failures, and we are to learn and grow from our failures. I believe we need to remember we are children of GOD, not robots of GOD. As His children, He gives us responsibilities, duties, all which have rewards. I believe He enjoys giving us these tasks as I enjoy giving my three sons tasks which I pretty much know I could do better myself. But its all part of growing. Now for some humor... A bro of mine, during his first time to OA, stood up, preached a bit and then said "And you died for His sins!" ... umm, OOPS! talk about blowing it! Its been 20 years and he's still talking about it. I appreciate your responses...
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 24, 2006 17:45:04 GMT -5
Grant, I agree that we have a big responsiblity here. The Word says God has given us the ministry of reconciliation as His ambassador's. Paul also makes the astounding statement that we are God's fellow workers.
2 Co 5:17-20 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."
1 Cor 3:9 "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building."
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Post by ejuliot on Mar 24, 2006 17:51:29 GMT -5
You know Grant that story reminded me of something I did once. I was preaching about adultery and reading some scripture when I looked up expecting to see an adult audience and instead there was a very large group of small children. I had to stop talking because what I was saying was not appropriate preaching for children. My friend who was standing by thought it was halarious.
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Post by Jules on Mar 25, 2006 17:21:47 GMT -5
Grant, I totally agree with your comments. Now, what a refreshing example of how the Spirit unites, eh? (I'm not from Canada by the, way, just love using "eh?" of "huh" because I AM from Texas
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Post by Jules on Mar 25, 2006 17:25:12 GMT -5
A quick tangent since you guys are talking about things in evangelism that pretty much wreck the opportunity - a friend of mine was at a youth event for a high school and was going to do some one on ones. He had the pink/blue curved cards from livingwaters and walked up to a couple of teenage guys and asked them "Which one is bigger?" To which one of the young guys replied: "Mine is!" Needless to say, it was pretty much over at that point. So I always say now, when using those cards' Which CARD is bigger?" no matter who I am talking to! I love learning from other people's mistakes!
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Post by Miles Lewis on Mar 26, 2006 18:04:24 GMT -5
Your story made me think of this one time... ok.... this one is crazy, but eric trelease was a witness... while leaving the new york state fair late at night, i saw in the parking lot a few guys that had obviously had one too many. i decided to walk up to them and give them a free sobriety test with the pink and blue tract. as i walked around the car towards these guys who were standing next to their car, i pulled out a pink and blue and said, "HEY GUYS! WHICH ONE- " it was then that i noticed that one of these guys had their pants unzipped and were urinating next to their car. ... and i was just about to ask them, "HEY GUYS, WHICH ONE IS BIGGER?" MILES
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Post by Grant on Mar 26, 2006 20:30:33 GMT -5
LOL... we should create a thread for these!
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