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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 2, 2006 23:17:18 GMT -5
I grew up in the Virgin Mary Cult, also known as the Catholic Church.
There is much debate today over whether or not the Catholics are saved Christians.
Well, as a former member of that cult, let me say there is as much of God in the Catholic Church as there is with the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.
They believe that salvation is found only in their Church. That a man does not need to be born again but rather needs to be baptized into their church. And that it is having more good works then bad works which saves you from hell, mixed with the rosery, confession, and baptism. If you pray to Mary through the rosery, she will forgive your sins. As the Catholics say, "If Peter closes the gate, Mary opens the window." And also that their Pope is infallible, since he is Christ on earth.
As far as we protestants (which once meant protester) we need to "Come home to Rome".
I grew up Catholic, was taugth Catholic doctrine, went to Catholic class. Many Christians today say, "Catholics don't beleive that" and it's because they don't know what Catholics actually believe.
David Ravenhill said to me once, "it seems that many Christians today are working hard to unite that which Martin Luther worked so hard to seperate."
And so I put the stamp of "HERESY" on the Virgin Mary Cult. Sure Catholics could get saved. I did. Martin Luther did. Many Catholics have been born-again, but of course it means no longer being Catholics.
A Catholic can be saved, if he rejects the Catholic doctrines, specificly the ones regarding salvation through works and through Mary. If a Catholic is born again by repenting of their sins (including idolatry) and puts their trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, they can be saved. But they might end up being kicked out of the Catholic Church.
What do you say?
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Post by ejuliot on Feb 2, 2006 23:46:39 GMT -5
This is a really good video on Apparitions of Mary there should be a link to watch the videos on the right hand side of the page. www.christiananswers.net/catalog/messages-vs.htmlAs for Catholics being Christian I would have to say I agree with Jesse. The Catholic Church is seeped in idolatry. The 2nd commandment is left out of the Catholic ten commandments. Exodus 20:5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." I don't know about these websites, I was looking for the pictures. So, ignore the writing and check out the pictures. www.aloha.net/~mikesch/crown.htmwww.harpazo.net/images/consecrationSM.jpgwww.op-stjoseph.org/nuns/angels/picpages/procession.htmThis page has a lot of pictures (again I do not endorse these sites) www.catholicconcerns.com/Pictures.htmlSo, obviously there is a lot of idolatry going on in the Catholic church. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." I just finished doing a study on idolatry and found these verses... Psalms 115:4-8 "Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Habakkuk 2:18,19 "What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it."
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Post by tomah on Feb 3, 2006 9:21:42 GMT -5
If I was to say that the moderator of my church is Rev. Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley, I think that that would be enough to show exactly what I think of the church of Rome. As far as I am aware, Dr. Paisley is the only man to ever actually call the pope "an antichrist" to his face. The pope was just beginning to make a speech in the European Parliament when Dr. Paisley stood up in protest in 1988. His site is filled with information on Rome, he knows the doctrines and creeds probably better than the average priest and he buys a catholic paper every week to keep up to date on the goings on of the great mother of harlots. His site is www.ianpaisley.org
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 3, 2006 10:14:37 GMT -5
Catholics are not Christians. Many will even confess it. I have ran into several on the street. I was OA preaching once and a guy yelled at me, "what?! Are you a Christian?" I ofcourse responded with ,"yes." Then he said, "that is what your problem is! I am a catholic, stop pressing your beliefs on me!" The next day I ran into another person that said they were a catholic, not a Christian.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 3, 2006 13:54:05 GMT -5
It's true, many Catholics will say, "I am not a Christian, I'm a Catholic." If they had to choose over the Word of God or the word of the Church, they pick the word of the Church.
Their loyalty is to their cult first.
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Post by josh on Feb 3, 2006 20:48:49 GMT -5
If I was to say that the moderator of my church is Rev. Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley, I think that that would be enough to show exactly what I think of the church of Rome. As far as I am aware, Dr. Paisley is the only man to ever actually call the pope "an antichrist" to his face. The pope was just beginning to make a speech in the European Parliament when Dr. Paisley stood up in protest in 1988. His site is filled with information on Rome, he knows the doctrines and creeds probably better than the average priest and he buys a catholic paper every week to keep up to date on the goings on of the great mother of harlots. His site is www.ianpaisley.org Paisley ROCKS!! The church of Rome is a pagan church.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Feb 3, 2006 23:50:50 GMT -5
I love Ian Paisley. A lot of people hate him.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 14, 2006 23:20:31 GMT -5
Why would a Catholic be any less a Christian than a Lutheran, Baptist, or Pentecostal? Last time I read my bible Jesus said he was coming back for a spotless bride without any wrinkles. Last time I looked into the above listed "Denominations" they had just as many doctrines that are unscriptural as the Catholics. The devil has many faces. Let's at least be consistent with our exposing of darkness.
Comments, Please!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 15, 2006 9:16:41 GMT -5
I haven't noticed anyone not being consistant with their refute of evil on this site. (EDIT: well.. except for a few guests who have stopped in and left..)
Catholics will go to Hell. Lutherans will go to Hell. Baptist will go to Hell. Pentecostals will go to Hell. Only born-again Christians that serve the Lord will go to Heaven. Now, there may be born-again Christian that is under a certain banner, but the banner of a denomination doesn't save you.
I honestly don't know how anyone who actually believes the doctrinal statements of the Catholic Church could have the Spirit of Truth in them. If someone is a Catholic and has the Spirit of Truth in them, I seriously doubt they agree with all the doctrinal statements of the Catholic Church. Besides, as I pointed out above many Catholics will be abhorred at the thought of being a "Christian."
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Post by josh on Feb 15, 2006 14:35:12 GMT -5
Why would a Catholic be any less a Christian than a Lutheran, Baptist, or Pentecostal? Because the church of Rome teaches a works based salvation, and anyone trying to earn their way into heaven is not saved. Now its not a denomination that saves, but it is God who saves. The other movements you listed are all classed as protestant denominations, that teach Faith Alone. So we have biblically doctrine verses man made doctrine. Which is correct? Well we don't need a magisterum to decide that one, the answer is the bible wins hands down. Romanist don't teach the bible they pervert it.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 15, 2006 17:34:05 GMT -5
Actually, if I were go to a Catholic Mass I would here more scripture than the Protestant church I go to on Sunday. When one attends a Catholic Mass they will hear, a reading from a prophet, a psalm, an epistle and a gospel reading. When I go to my Wesleyan church on Sunday I do not hear that much scripture. Now the sermons obviously have more substance and I am obviously in agreement with the Pastor and not the local Priest, but the original premise that I wrote upon is that a Catholic is no less a Christian than any person attending church at a protestant denomination. I also would also argue against your "faith alone" doctrine. Using the scriptures of course and not some man made court as the Catholic might. I think we need to watch how we pass judgment on whole churches. If one reads the book of Revelation that person would find that 5 out of the 7 churches had something to repent of. Send me a list of doctrinal beliefs for any protestant denomination and I can find something unbiblical about at least one of their beliefs. How many doctrines will Christ tolerate that are not correct? I think that Christ will not tolerate any incorrect teaching whether it is one or 100. All I am saying is that the church with no incorrect teaching can be the one to cast stones upon the Church of Rome. If you also look at the Church of Sardis they had some people who needed to repent and others who had kept there robes white. Revelation 3 the Letter to Sardis 1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: "The One who has the seven spirits of God (A) and the seven stars says: I know your works; you have a reputation for being alive, but you are dead. 2Be alert and strengthen what remains, which is about to die, for I have not found your works complete before My God. 3Remember therefore what you have received and heard; keep it, and repent. But if you are not alert, I will come [c] like a thief, and you have no idea at what hour I will come against you. [d] 4But you have a few people [e] in Sardis who have not defiled [f] their clothes, and they will walk with Me in white, because they are worthy. 5In the same way, the victor will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life, (B) but will acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels. 6"Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.
For all of the short comings of the Church of Rome they have kept part of the Faith. They do not allow women to be priest; there are a lot of protestant denominations that can not claim this. In fact a lot of denominations do not forbid homosexuality, but rather embrace it. There is at least an authority structure in the Catholic Church; every man is not off doing his own thing. I guess the point is that we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water. When I go out preaching I find it a lot easier to talk with a Catholic than a Protestant. This has happened multiple times. There are a lot of people in the Catholic Church that seem very tender to the things of God. Yes, I agree the have some horrible teachings. They have obviously not followed the example of Levi by turning people away from iniquity, then again neither has the modern Protestant Church. Was Jeremiah, any prophet or even Jesus himself unrighteous because the people around them were unrighteous, of course not! I think we can look at it the same way today. The Catholic Church has many things they need to repent of, and if a person does come to know the Lord while being a Catholic I believe that it would be a matter of conscience as to whether they stay in the Church. The Churches need godly people in them to stand up for the truth. There also may be time for the righteous Catholic to leave the ungodly Church of Rome. There is a time and place for everything under heaven.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 15, 2006 17:53:09 GMT -5
I don't know of any demonination that has this much error. How much of the below do you agree with?? ___________
DECLARATIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
FOURTH SESSION: DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES: "If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts [the 66 books of the Bible plus 12 apocryphal books, being two of Paralipomenon, two of Esdras, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Sophonias, two of Macabees], as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA."
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).
SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).
SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).
SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that children, because they have not the act of believing, are not after having received baptism to be numbered among the faithful, and that for this reason are to be rebaptized when they have reached the years of discretion; or that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith of the Church alone, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 13).
SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON CONFIRMATON: "If anyone says that the confirmation of those baptized is an empty ceremony and not a true and proper sacrament; or that of old it was nothing more than a sort of instruction, whereby those approaching adolescence gave an account of their faith to the Church, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Confirmation, Canon 1).
THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 1).
THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST: "If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally and really, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, Canon 8).
FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that in the Catholic Church penance is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ the Lord for reconciling the faithful of God as often as they fall into sin after baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 1).
FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation; or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human contrivance, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 7).
FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that the confession of all sins as it is observed in the Church is impossible and is a human tradition to be abolished by pious people; or that each and all of the faithful of Christ or either sex are not bound thereto once a year in accordance with the constitution of the great Lateran Council, and that for this reason the faithful of Christ are to be persuaded not to confess during Lent, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 8).
FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE: "If anyone says that God always pardons the whole penalty together with the guilt and that the satisfaction of penitents is nothing else than the faith by which they perceive that Christ has satisfied for them, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance, Canon 8).
TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that in the mass a true and real sacrifice is not offered to God; or that to be offered is nothing else than that Christ is given to us to eat, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 1).
TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that by those words, Do this for a commemoration of me, Christ did not institute the Apostles priests; or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer His own body and blood, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 2).
TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one; or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 3).
TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS: "If anyone says that it is a deception to celebrate masses in honor of the saints and in order to obtain their intercession with God, as the Church intends, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 5).
TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER: "If anyone says that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood, or that there is no power of consecrating and offering the true body and blood of the Lord and of forgiving and retaining sins, but only the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel; or that those who do not preach are not priests at all, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 1).
TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER: "If anyone says that the bishops who are chosen by the authority of the Roman pontiff are not true and legitimate bishops, but merely human deception, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Canon 8).
TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."
TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS OF SAINTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES: "The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching and have charge of the cura animarum, that in accordance with the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and with the unanimous teaching of the holy Fathers and the decrees of sacred councils, they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, that it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our redeemer and savior; and that they think impiously who deny that the saints who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven are to be invoked, or who assert that they do not pray for men, or that our invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry, or that it is opposed to the word of God and inconsistent with the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to pray vocally or mentally to those who reign in heaven."
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 15, 2006 17:56:23 GMT -5
ANATHEMA- One that is cursed or damned.
So they say Let the one who disagrees with this doctrine be damned.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 15, 2006 18:19:50 GMT -5
You missed my point.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 15, 2006 18:25:40 GMT -5
The point is not the amount of error. Jesus doesn't want us to be partly holy and partly unholy, no matter the amount. That is my point. Having less bad doctrine does not make you holy as a church. The only churches that were in a right relationship with God in the Book of REV were the churches that had nothing to repent of. The protestant church has plenty to repent of. First remove the speck from your own eye and then you can help remove the plank out of your brother's eye. I believe those words of Jesus fit this situation perfectly. I am not disputing that the Catholic Church has a plank in it's eye. I am simply taking the stance Jesus took, which was make sure you are right with God first and then help your brother out. If the blind lead the blind they both fall into a ditch.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 16, 2006 13:32:56 GMT -5
Let's be realistic, suppose I started my own Church and taught people that salvation was found only in my Church. And my followers also believed that I was infallible when talking about scriptures and the things of God, and that if I said something that contradicted the bible, I was still right in what I said.
Would the church that I started be a true Christian church or a cult?
Of course it would be a cult.
Well that is the Catholic Church. They believe that salvation is found ONLY in the Church. (of course we know salvation is found ONLY in Christ). And they believe that the Pope is infallible when talking about the things of God, even if He contradicts the bible.
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Post by Robert Matheny on Feb 16, 2006 14:17:04 GMT -5
Heres my 2 cents...
I went to Catholic school for five years, and not once was I told how to get saved. I remeber singing "They'll know we are Christians by our love" at mass. I don't recall ever going through scripture, we had religon class that was sure to squeeze in all the sacraments, but rarely did we search God's word...I wonder why?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 16, 2006 14:34:12 GMT -5
I was a Catholic for 15 years and was never told that I needed to be born again.
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Post by tomah on Feb 16, 2006 18:18:27 GMT -5
Quotations from Rev 17 - Just a snip of what the scriptures say about Rome
"the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" v2 "...full of names of blasphemy" v3 "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" v5 "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" v6
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 18, 2006 22:10:35 GMT -5
Let's be realistic, suppose I started my own Church and taught people that salvation was found only in my Church. And my followers also believed that I was infallible when talking about scriptures and the things of God, and that if I said something that contradicted the bible, I was still right in what I said. Would the church that I started be a true Christian church or a cult? Of course it would be a cult.Well that is the Catholic Church. They believe that salvation is found ONLY in the Church. (of course we know salvation is found ONLY in Christ). And they believe that the Pope is infallible when talking about the things of God, even if He contradicts the bible. And how is this any different from starting your own church, claiming you believe the bible and then twisting the words to your own destruction?
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 18, 2006 22:19:30 GMT -5
Heres my 2 cents.I went to Catholic school for five years, and not once was I told how to get saved. I remeber singing "They'll know we are Christians by our love" at mass. I don't recall ever going through scripture, we had religon class that was sure to squeeze in all the sacraments, but rarely did we search God's word...I wonder why? You didn't do those things because the Catholic Church is dead. They need to repent. Again I don't think you guys are understanding what I am trying to portray. The things that people on this board are saying about the Catholic are about 99% right. We should expose hypocrites and false teachings. My only question is, how can the Catholic Church be a cult because of false teachings and any Protestant false teaching not make that particular sect a cult. Also if I recall there are people on this board that have been involved in groups that promote probably the worst heresy of our day, "Once Saved Always Saved." Why are these eternal security teachers and churches not exposed for what they are? OSAS is also happens to be a Protestant teaching. All I am asking for from the board is a little consistency.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 18, 2006 22:21:19 GMT -5
The Catholic Church is not the Wh*re in Revelation.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 19, 2006 0:01:37 GMT -5
What it comes down to is this: there are a set of teachings that are considered foundational in order for a group to be called Christian and one of them is Faith in Jesus Christ (not Jesus and Mary and not works and Faith) alone saves a person from Eternal d**nation. ANother foundational truth is that the Bible is the Word of God. These are VERY BASIC truths of the CHristian Faith. THe Catholic Church doesn't believe these two (among many others) and that is why they are a cult, just like the Mormons, the JW's, etc. The only instance that I can see that someone WITHIN the Catholic Church would be a Christian is if they were sticking around to try to bring it to Repentance. To agree to their Doctrines is to be deceived. If someone agrees to just the three errors that I listed above, then they are NOT a CHRISTIAN...simple as that. If they are, we might as well call Mormons and JW's Christians. Someone can believe in OSAS and still be a Christian...I should know, I am one of them ;D . BUt that has already been discussed on this forum and I don't think that anyone "won" it. You can read all 7-8 pages of it here: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1136930173
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 19, 2006 18:29:27 GMT -5
I reject your foundational teaching theory. The only things that are "foundational" are someone's conscience and their recognition of the Creator. Read the book of Romans for information. I am not preaching some universalism doctrine here. However, everything you just mentioned had to do with someone’s mental assent of one thing or another. Being in a right relationship with God is not about rejecting this doctrine or that doctrine, it is about walking in a pure conscience and doing what you know is right. And obviously their is an element of faith involved for if any man wishes to come to Him(God) must first believe that He exists. I encourage you to read the book of Revelation. The people in the church of Sardis were not right because they were trying to make the other people right. Granted that may play a role but that is not what the passage said. They were right because they had kept their garments white.
I agree someone could believe in OSAS and still be a Christian. Someone could also in anything and still be a Christian. Because it is not about believing this or that, it is about the heart. Where is your heart? That is the question. Not the form of baptism you adhere to or whatever the case may be. Granted eventually as the person seeks after God some beliefs will have to go. That goes for the Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran or Muslim. See I believe that any person can be seeking God and learning from him at any junction of their life. St. Paul says in Romans that every person has a conscience and knowledge of the Creator. If that happens to be all the person has knowledge of than that is all God is going to expect from them. For God to expect otherwise would be unfair and we know God is not unfair. If what St. Paul portrays in the book of Romans is true than a person could have never even heard of Jesus and be in a right relationship with God. This goes directly against your foundational teaching theory. We are not saved by some Law of doctrinal beliefs but by the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.
James in his epistle adds to what Paul is telling us in Romans. James says that, “if any man knows to do well and does not do it to him it is sin.” For something to be sin their must be knowledge of it as sin. A person cannot sin and not know that he/she has sinned. I think we can apply this teaching from James to the judgments we make on churches. If all of the above is true than a person could be in the Catholic Church and a Christian at the same time and they don’t even have to be telling people to repent.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 19, 2006 21:40:21 GMT -5
Wow, brother...there is SO much you said that is VERY MUCH wrong that I don't know where to start. First of all, James 4:17 isn't the only verse in the Bible that talks about what sin is. I would agree that knowing good and not doing it is sin. But I would also say what 1 John 3:4 says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This verse makes it very clear that sin is trangression of the Law. What is the Law? Well it is the Ten Commandments and who can say they haven't broken that. I have preached expositionally through the Book of Romans, so I can assure you that I know VERY MUCH about what Paul is saying in that book. People aren't going to get to Heaven if they haven't repented of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ, it is as simple as that. God sends people to Hell because they are rebellious sinners and deserve it. People don't get to go to Heaven simply because they haven't heard the Gospel or haven't heard of Jesus Christ. If that was possible then what did Jesus mean when he said, "I am the way, the truth and the life and NO MAN can come to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME"? There are foundational truths brother. If everything was relative as you seem to say it is, then how would we know anything? Everything would simply be opinion. There are things that are VERY ESSENTIAL to the Christian faith. Then there are things that are NON-ESSENTIAL, which are very debatable throughout Scripture. God probably left those things that way for a reason: so we wouldn't focus on them. If someone is trusting in their faith PLUS works then they are NOT SAVED PERIOD. That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If someone is trusting in Jesus AND MARY, then they are not saved. If someone is trusting in a GOd that they call ALLAH, then they are not saved. Their God isn't the real God, but an idol. And we know who all the fake Gods are: the Devil. As far as the conscience is concerned, the Bible speaks of certain people who have seared, defiled, and corrupted consciences. Certainly those consciences CANNOT be trusted. The conscience is always based on what that person believes. It may have started out pure, but as they go through their life, their conscience can change to a certain degree. What you seem to be proposing here can be called nothing other than universalism. Do you go to Robert Schuller's church? He was the pastor of the Crystal Cathedral and what you are talking about sounds exactly like what he believes and preaches: that if someone is a "good" person then they can get to Heaven whether they have Jesus or not. If that is true, then why did Jesus even bother dying on the cross? If my conscience tells me that it is ok to Murder or have Sex Outside of Marriage all I want, then am I a Christian and on my way to Heaven just because I haven't heard that those things are wrong? If that is what you believe, then explain 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8 and Galatians 5:19-21...
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 19, 2006 23:21:52 GMT -5
Please see my comments in brackets and BOLD. Wow, brother...there is SO much you said that is VERY MUCH wrong that I don't know where to start. First of all, James 4:17 isn't the only verse in the Bible that talks about what sin is. I would agree that knowing good and not doing it is sin. But I would also say what 1 John 3:4 says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This verse makes it very clear that sin is trangression of the Law. What is the Law? Well it is the Ten Commandments and who can say they haven't broken that. I have preached expositionally through the Book of Romans, so I can assure you that I know VERY MUCH about what Paul is saying in that book. People aren't going to get to Heaven if they haven't repented of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ, it is as simple as that. God sends people to Hell because they are rebellious sinners and deserve it. (I NEVER SAID THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN) People don't get to go to Heaven simply because they haven't heard the Gospel or haven't heard of Jesus Christ. (I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD) If that was possible then what did Jesus mean when he said, "I am the way, the truth and the life and NO MAN can come to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME"? There are foundational truths brother. If everything was relative as you seem to say it is, (I DID NOT SAY IT WAS ALL RELATIVE) then how would we know anything? Everything would simply be opinion. (I AGREE SIN IS NOT OPINION) There are things that are VERY ESSENTIAL to the Christian faith. Then there are things that are NON-ESSENTIAL, (AGAIN I DISAGREE WITH THIS ESSENTAIL NON-ESSENTIAL IDEA YOU HAVE, and WE CAN EXAMINE THAT LATER) which are very debatable throughout Scripture. God probably left those things that way for a reason: so we wouldn't focus on them. If someone is trusting in their faith PLUS works then they are NOT SAVED PERIOD (WE CAN ALSO DEBATE THIS LATTER IF YOU WOULD LIKE BUT NOT NOW). That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If someone is trusting in Jesus AND MARY, then they are not saved (I AGREE JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY). If someone is trusting in a God that they call ALLAH, then they are not saved. Their God isn't the real God, but an idol. And we know who all the fake Gods are: the Devil. As far as the conscience is concerned, the Bible speaks of certain people who have seared, defiled, and corrupted consciences. ( YES, BUT THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY THE PEOPLE I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT HERE, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE A HARD HEART, BECAUSE I SAID THEY WERE RIGHT WITH GOD I.E. NOT SINNING) Certainly those consciences CANNOT be trusted. (AGREED) The conscience is always based on what that person believes. It may have started out pure, but as they go through their life, their conscience can change to a certain degree. (IT ALSO COULD NOT CHANGE AND THEY COULD LIVE BY WHAT THEY KNOW IS RIGHT THEIR WHOLE LIFE AND NEVER DEFILE THEIR CONSCIENCE.) What you seem to be proposing here can be called nothing other than universalism. Do you go to Robert Schuller's church? He was the pastor of the Crystal Cathedral and what you are talking about sounds exactly like what he believes and preaches: that if someone is a "good" person then they can get to Heaven whether they have Jesus or not. (NO, A PERSON MUST BE IN CHRIST) If that is true, then why did Jesus even bother dying on the cross? If my conscience tells me that it is ok to Murder or have Sex Outside of Marriage all I want, then am I a Christian and on my way to Heaven just because I haven't heard that those things are wrong? ( NO, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!) If that is what you believe, then explain 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8 and Galatians 5:19-21.. WE CERTAINLY CAN LOOK AT THOSE VERSES IN A MINUTE AFTER YOU EXPLAIN TO ME CORNELIOUS IN THE BOOK OF ACTS. BASICALLY EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID UP TO THIS POINT CAN BE EXPLAINED IN THE EXAMPLE OF CORNELEOUS. Let’s look at the passage. I will write my comments as the passage goes along similar to what I did to your comments. Acts 10 Cornelius Calls for Peter 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing ; ( It says here that he and all his family not only feared the Lord but were devout. The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; I think it is safe to say he was also a wise man.) He gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. (He gave to people in need and was a man of prayer. I think it is safe to say he had the beatitudes down to a tee. He was also a very prayerful man.) 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (Praise the Lord! God has accepted his fervent prayer and alms) 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea." 7When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa. (The Lord told him to do something and he obeyed) Peter's Vision 9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (Remember Christ’s sacrifice was for the whole world) 16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. 17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there. 19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." 21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?" 22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, (it says here the Cornelius was a righteous and God-Fearing man, all this before he even had a clue about who Jesus was.) who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests. The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house; Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself." 27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?" 30Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' 33So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us." 34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism (Amen!) 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. (This is the key to everything I have tried to portray in these posts. If you fear God and do what is right you will be accepted by him, no matter what nation you are from God is also faithful to sent other brothers to help your grow in your knowledge of Him, conditionally of course. We must seek after God no matter how much knowledge we have or where we are from.) 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. 39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.( Can you believe that God accepted Cornelius before he had given him the Holy Ghost? This one should drive the Pentecostals nuts.) 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.( All those nice things Luke had to say about Cornelius even before he was given the Holy Spirit and baptized.) Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Do you understand now were I am coming from. I am not excusing the Catholic or the Muslim for their false religion, I am just pointing out that God has reserved his remnant and they are coming from all the corners of the earth.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 20, 2006 0:00:11 GMT -5
I can understand where you are coming from brother, but you weren't making any sense for a while there. Cornelius was a man after God's own heart who had never heard of Jesus. But, look what happened...God saw that, sent him one of the Apostles (one of the writers of Doctrine) to preach the Gospel to him. And while hearing the message, he believed and then was baptized. And that is what will happen to everyone who is like Cornelius, even today. God will send one of his messengers, be it a missionary or an Angel to preach the Gospel to him. But, Cornelius wasn't worshipping a false God. He was worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...the One True God. Catholics worship a False God. They even took the Second Commandment out of the Bible because they didn't want to be accused of Idolatry. Therefore, as has been said...those who are in agreement with Catholic Doctrine cannot be saved. If they are like Cornelius, they will get saved and come out of such a heretical set of doctrines because the Spirit of All Truth will lead them out of it. To stay in those heretical doctrines (unless they were trying to reform from within) is to be deceived about who God really is and how He works. The point is that Cornelius did get saved and when he did I am sure that he relinquished any practices that he should have. You have to keep in mind that this was a transitional time from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and those who were truly Children of God as Jew (or God-fearing Gentiles who were converted to Judaism) would have recognized Jesus as the Messiah and put their trust in Him.
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Post by Rodgers on Feb 20, 2006 0:26:12 GMT -5
Yes, generally speaking the Catholics are not worshiping the true God. Catholic doctrine is false. We both agree. Just as false as the things that were going on in the church of Sardis, in which there were a few people who kept their robes white. That is all I am trying to say is that God has a remnant and a few may be in the Catholic Church. Like ST. Paul said," at least they preach Jesus Christ crucified." They don't have much else going for them but at least they have that. I am glad we could clear these things up.
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Post by tomah on Feb 21, 2006 12:51:21 GMT -5
The Roman Catholic church does not preach Christ crucified, they preach him REcrucified. Mass is the REdying of the Saviour which is ANOTHER gospel. Paul says in Galatians 1, that if ANY man preach any other gospel, let him be accursed!
And Rome IS the great mother of harlots. Most reputable scholars believe it to be so, the reformers who came out of her believed it to be the case and I believe it.
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Post by josh on Feb 21, 2006 21:14:23 GMT -5
That is all I am trying to say is that God has a remnant and a few may be in the Catholic Church. If you are talking about the Roman Catholic Church, then it is impossible to be a true believer, and stay within Romanism. How can true believers adore (worship) Mary? How could true believers worship the wafer? How can true believers believe that a preist can forgive sins? How could a true believers believe that the pope is infalliable? You can't be a Christian, and stay within Rome. The RCC is a cult, and not a Christian church.
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