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Post by SlowBro on Mar 21, 2006 17:27:59 GMT -5
I pray that God would convict them. I beleive that God has to 'move upon them' to be saved. But I believe that the person must yeild or be humble to be born again. I think it is possible to resist the Holy Ghost.. or grieve Him away. I know I did for many years. OK that makes sense. I don't agree, but at least you've cleared up a mystery for me :-) I would pray that God would convict them, too. I think that's perfectly Biblical. I just think that God at times allows Himself to be resisted and can demonstrate that with scripture. Anyway, Arminian or Calvinist, it's good to have an evangelist like you at my side.
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Post by Juli on Mar 21, 2006 20:43:21 GMT -5
I think the biggest difference for me when it comes to evangelism, now that I understand the sovereignty of God (as much as my finite mind can anyway - perhaps I should say I ACCEPT it and not understand it) is that now I am at peace when they reject the gospel and don't worry about how I "presented it", it isn't my responsibility to convince them to repent (which is what I thought before), I am at peace when I go, I know the hand of God went before me, breaking up the fallow ground. I know He WILL, as he did in the Old Testament, give to them a heart of flesh and not of stone, if He chooses. And I know that it is His will that none perish. But I don't know the condition of the soil, I just sow seeds and watch for God to give the increase. Then He gets all the glory, and not an ounce goes to me, or even the person who repsonded.
consider these passages from Romans 9:
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.
Notice some things: Our effort means nothing - why? then we can't take credit of course (even partial!) Only a remnant will be saved, not everyone. God has mercy on whom He chooses We have no right to question God's choosing or not choosing people - this is a very blatant statement at to His sovereignty (defined as HE IS RULING NOW apart from our beliefs, acceptance, understanding, etc. not His "right to rule" as some suggest)
People belittle (or try to) GOd's sovereignty all the time. They paint him as this passive, meek God who is watching over but really can't do anything to save man if man doesn't want to be saved. Who wants to be saved, really? Sin is pleasurable, no one seeks God, HE MUST intervene, and He has. Praise God! The former paints a picture of a rather weak and powerless God, doesn't it? The man who does not accept the sovereignty of God in ALL things is puffing up himself in pride and self - we are the clay. We have absolutely no right to ever use the words "It isn't fair" when it comes to anything the Almighty God says or does.
This is the fear of the Lord - understanding His sovereignty. Apart from it, there is no fear because God is so small in their minds.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 22, 2006 7:14:28 GMT -5
I think the biggest difference for me when it comes to evangelism, now that I understand the sovereignty of God (as much as my finite mind can anyway - perhaps I should say I ACCEPT it and not understand it) is that now I am at peace when they reject the gospel and don't worry about how I "presented it", it isn't my responsibility to convince them to repent (which is what I thought before), I am at peace when I go, I know the hand of God went before me, breaking up the fallow ground. I know He WILL, as he did in the Old Testament, give to them a heart of flesh and not of stone, if He chooses. And I know that it is His will that none perish. But I don't know the condition of the soil, I just sow seeds and watch for God to give the increase. Then He gets all the glory, and not an ounce goes to me, or even the person who repsonded. Well-said! Amen! consider these passages from Romans 9: (snipped) We have no right to question God's choosing or not choosing people - this is a very blatant statement at to His sovereignty (defined as HE IS RULING NOW apart from our beliefs, acceptance, understanding, etc. not His "right to rule" as some suggest) To be fair to the Arminian, they have their own spin on Romans 9, though it's interesting to note that when they go through the book of Romans, at least one pastor has been known to spend several weeks on chapters preceeding and after (postceeding??) chapter 9, but only spend 45 minutes on 9 ;-) I think Romans 9 is clear. It's a self-standing explosive atomic bomb. And it's preceeded by 8:28-30, "those whom God called... ... He justified." I don't see how the stuff between those words (the ...) cancells out the connection, so I think 8:28-30 carries the doctrine of /personal/ election. This is in contrast to the classic Arminian "national" election or the new Arminian election based upon our forseen choice. The national election is specifically denied in chapter 8 and letting scripture interpret scripture one can find other texts which clarify the Romans 8 and 9 elections as both /unconditional/ and /personal/. People belittle (or try to) GOd's sovereignty all the time. They paint him as this passive, meek God who is watching over but really can't do anything to save man if man doesn't want to be saved. Who wants to be saved, really? Sin is pleasurable, no one seeks God, HE MUST intervene, and He has. Praise God! The former paints a picture of a rather weak and powerless God, doesn't it? I TOTALLY agree; we all LOVE sin! But to be fair to our Arminian brothers they say that God intentionally limits His power because upholding His character is more important. They feel that if God were to ultimately choose He would be unjust. I say salvation is unjust to God! It seems that NO ONE is outraged at the free forgiveness of criminals of our magnitude! EVERYONE thinks they DESERVE forgiveness! The classic (not hyper-) Calvinist understanding is that God does not /choose/ men to go to hell, all go by their own choice and God (unfairly to Him) chooses some for Himself. Double-predestination is not taught in the Bible. They say that to have responsibility, it is only natural to assume one has ability. This sounds plausible, but is it taught in the Bible? I have not found it! Actually, I have found two scriptures that say just the opposite! Write me Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv if you're curious; perhaps I'll post them to this thread later. Separate the two issues and see what the Bible says about each! Do not glue them together in a way that cannot be separated, treat each as a separate issue and research them both. Responsibility: There is a universal call of the gospel (Arminians: didja realize that classic Calvinists believed that?). Everyone is responsible to repent and believe, because God is due the service He deserves. Ability: No one is able. The Bible uses words like dead, slave to sin, helpless, unable, etc. They say that in order to have accountability you must be self-determining. I challenge them to find that philosphical presupposition in scripture! I would like to see it; I'm not being arrogant here. If scripture says it to be so, please bring it to my attention so I can meditate upon it. Juli, you're on the right track. This is the second post I've seen of yours that I just have to ::clap clap clap:: applaud. By the way, I dislike calling myself a Calvinist, even though I kinda did above. I would rather be called a Christian that agrees with Calvin's 5 points. My identity is in Christ alone. But because that label takes a long time to type ;-) I'm OK with the Calvinist label.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 22, 2006 7:15:25 GMT -5
Let me restate this: what a priviledge to have Arminian brothers and sisters out there sharing the good news. We agree on the most important points, and I am so glad for them.
Most of my family are Nazarene Christans. So was I, until I was four years old ;-) What godly men and women! I cannot in good conscience attack Arminians. I only critically examine their doctrines.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 22, 2006 7:42:03 GMT -5
I think Romans 9 is clear. It's a self-standing explosive atomic bomb. And it's preceeded by 8:28-30, "those whom God called... ... He justified." I don't see how the stuff between those words (the ...) cancells out the connection, so I think 8:28-30 carries the doctrine of /personal/ election. This is in contrast to the classic Arminian "national" election or the new Arminian election based upon our forseen choice. The national election is specifically denied in chapter 8 and letting scripture interpret scripture one can find other texts which clarify the Romans 8 and 9 elections as both /unconditional/ and /personal/. Oops! I forgot something very significant, the foreknowing. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (8:28-30 ESV) It seems to me that Paul is saying the only ones who are justified are those who are first foreknown and then predestined and then called! All are given a /general/ call to repent. But only those who are predestined are given a call that effects what it calls, such as "LAZARUS! Come out!" Lazarus was dead and could not come without the Savior first giving him an ability. Can an Arminian give me another spin on this? I'd love to meditate upon it to see if it's true. I promise not to attack it, "THAT'S NOT TRUE!" I just want to think about it and see if it holds water.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 22, 2006 12:03:28 GMT -5
All are given a /general/ call to repent. See Matthew 22:14. Yes, the classic Spurgeon-flavored Calvinist knows there is a general, external, uneffectual call (the universal call of the gospel) and then there is a specific, internal, effectual call. I have no argument in my mind when I tell anyone they should repent, because it's Biblical!
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