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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 29, 2006 19:44:16 GMT -5
If my questions are retarded, be kind... Grant you're killing me here. ;D ;D ;D I don't know how many times I've finished a post and wondered if I was going to get slammed for being an idiot.
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Post by Jules on Mar 30, 2006 17:47:46 GMT -5
Steve, to answer your question about why I think the lost sheep are what you call "pre-converted elect"....
I say this mainly from just logical deduction. Sheep are not goats, even lost sheep are still sheep. The prodigal son was still a son, even though he was lost then found. Such parables indicate a condition of "being" apart from our own realization, situation, acceptance, or knowledge thereof. Our election is like this. We of course don't know we are chosen until after the fact. If we preached election, it would be foolishness. As many a Calvinist has said, election can be the spiritual death of any saint. And I agree. The teaching is such a mystery that it takes years for it to really take root in our hearts and lives, and therefore many go "hyper" and distort the teaching, taking man's responsiblity out completely.
It is a mystery I think because it is not something you realize or understand until after you have repented, trusted Christ, believed, etc. All along you think you are making all the choices on your own, but the reason you were able to was because you were called and enabled to in the first place. THe man with the shriveled hand stretched forth his hand because Jesus first told him to. He had faith as he acted. But he still had to stretch forth his hand. The man with the mat had to pick it up and walk. But our repsonse is after the initiation by God.
The doctrine of election is most beloved to the saint because of the 5th point in my own opinion, it is there we can truly rest in the fact that we will endure faihtfully to the end because God called us and began the good work. He doesn't continue the good work in those he didn't call. But we often leave that part of the promise out. The more "mature" will add the condition of us loving God, but when do you hear the conditional part about this promise being only for the called? Romans 8:28-
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (KJV)
just some food for thought.
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Post by Grant on Mar 30, 2006 19:58:18 GMT -5
I say this mainly from just logical deduction. Sheep are not goats, even lost sheep are still sheep. The prodigal son was still a son, even though he was lost then found. Such parables indicate a condition of "being" apart from our own realization, situation, acceptance, or knowledge thereof. Our election is like this. Jules, Aren't we all creations of GOD though? I am pretty sure I am... which would mean He has a special heart for me, not because He decided to but because I was created in His own image, as was every other person on earth. As a personal example, I don't decide which of my three sons to love and raise, but instead I give them every opportunity possible. They still have freedom of will to deny those opportunities, but they get my full attention because they are of my own blood. All creation is of GOD, man and woman is of GOD, regardless if we are the evil sinners worthy of eternal hell by our own works. We are still His creations and originally of His image, and He wishes none to perish but all to come to repentance. This is why the father was so happy/joyful when his son returned... but if it was by the father's own doing then why would he have been so happy and not just content since he did it all? But note it was the son coming back, the son repented, the son acknowledged his state and returned to home. This understanding (which may be flawed) is one of many reasons why I don't understand how someone with a Calvinist's view can truly appreciates GOD's anger and sadness as the world follows their evil ways because they would say it was His will, but He would not do something to anger Himself, goes against His own character and Word. but I'm hoping to better understand through our discussions...
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