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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 19:17:22 GMT -5
There are three vital points we must remember when reading the scriptures; context, context, context.
Kerrigan, the scripture right before the one you quoted says: I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Then it says in 5:17: For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want.
Paul was giving the solution to this problem - walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. But if you walk according to the flesh, you will not be holy. Paul was not saying here that he himself was walking according to the flesh, rather he was say that those who do walk according to the flesh will fulfull the lust of the flesh.
It goes on to say:
5:18 - 21 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance--as I told you before--that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "
So Paul was clearly saying that those who walk according to the flesh will not go to Heaven.
I also think that we must clarify that there are different types of perfection.
There is absolute perfect, which belongs to God alone. God alone has never sinned ever. No one can claim absolute perfection.
But there is a Christian perfection. The bible says we can be perfect in Christ. That His blood actually cleanses us from all (not some) sin. When one is born again the old things past, behold all (not some) things become new.
Jesus faced temptations. Paul faced temptations. We will face temptations. We will never be above temptation, but praise be to God that we can live free from sin.
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On a side note. I was thinking and realized that it is much better to be wrong in believing in complete repentance then to be wrong by believing in partial repentance.
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Post by Jules on Mar 28, 2006 19:22:15 GMT -5
as posted on the other thread, you view this issue as "partial" repentance, but I do not, and I would venture to say that neither does anyone else on here who doesn't hold the same views as you do on sinless perfection. When you call it that you should be aware of how it comes across....it implies we are willfully and knowingly sinning and could care less. That is hardly the case. But you appear to be rendering judgment where you do not have cause to, nor justification to. If I am wrong in my perception (this is going to be my token phrase on this board - I can tell) please correct me. I can only tell you how it comes across.
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Post by Jules on Mar 28, 2006 19:24:13 GMT -5
by the way, by your line of reasoning with regard to "partial repentance", I agree. I reason the same way with regard to salvation: if I err on my view that it is God who chooses me, saves me, and santifies me, I'd rather err on the side to bring HIM glory rather than myself by believing it was my effort, faithfulness and ability to repent that saved me.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 20:11:24 GMT -5
Jules,
I am not offended, but by the same token your posts as well as others constantly infer that we are proud of our efforts to become holy and it is in our own strength.
As far as what to believe let's believe the Bible.
What do you folks do with these?
And every man that has this hope in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF EVEN AS HE IS PURE. 1 John 3:3 Is that our responsiblity or not?
Having therefore these promises dearly beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL (ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL) FILTHINESS OF THE FLESH AND SPIRIT PERFECTING HOLINESS IN THE FEAR OF GOD. 2 Corinthians 7:1
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 31, 2006 11:41:16 GMT -5
Interesting stuff, Manna. I haven't gone to verify what you've stated but if true, it sure proves much of my understanding of our fallen nature and "original sin". Thanks for your post. Grant.. what are your thoughts now, on this..I am Curious. ;D Be Blessed..
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 31, 2006 11:43:36 GMT -5
Amen! In fact, I'm not even going to read Manna's post until he/she logs in as a member. ;D But Miles, you do know me... what some water , or a Coca-Cola? God Bless..
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 2, 2006 14:33:44 GMT -5
Interesting stuff, Manna. I haven't gone to verify what you've stated but if true, it sure proves much of my understanding of our fallen nature and "original sin". Thanks for your post. Grant, here are two more verses to back up the calim on Romans 7:9, lesss look at prophecy.. ****Deuteronomy 1:39**** And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, ***your children who do not yet know good from bad*** --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. ***Isaiah 7:14-16**** Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to***** reject the wrong and choose the right.*** But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. Was not the Apostle Paul , talking about this in Romans 7:9..Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. The age of accountablity, unto God.. Just some thoughts , and talking to myself again ... God Bless...
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Post by tomah on Apr 3, 2006 13:03:31 GMT -5
Forgive me if i have missed it, but I have yet to read (to my knowledge) from someone who believes in sinlessness, how they interpret Romans 7:25b where even AFTER Paul's cry of victory in Christ he says that his "flesh" serves the law of sin.
Any takers?
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 3, 2006 14:50:19 GMT -5
Forgive me if i have missed it, but I have yet to read (to my knowledge) from someone who believes in sinlessness, how they interpret Romans 7:25b where even AFTER Paul's cry of victory in Christ he says that his "flesh" serves the law of sin. Any takers? Greetings from Anytakers , Armen.. Armen , Please read on down to chapter 8, in verse 1, it reads you will see the verse in the sentence (therefore), and must ask yourself what is that word , therefore for.. Basically it means to backup.. So you ask about verse Romans 7:25, and continually on in the next chapter Romans 8 verse 2 to answer that question in verse 7:25, For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death... This is by the Holy Spirit, that will come into a sinner and frees him or her from the power of sin... The law of the spirit comes into full operation as believers commit themselves to OBEY the Holy Spirit.. Armen , this is a new power operating within, a power that allows them to overcome..This is something last night that i had written, that may give you an understanding also, This is somewhat long... John 1:29...29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Jesus is the Perfect Lamb provided by God to be sacrificed in place of (US) sinners, by HIS death, and Jesus made provision for the removal of the GUILT and POWER of SIN and opened up a way to God for all the world.. This is the other law of God...many times the Apostle Paul, talked about different Law's of God. James 1:25 it says: 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Now the law as in chapter James 2:12 says: 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. That Law is the Will of God internalized in our hearts by the (INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT).. In Ezek 11:29-30 God's Promise says:: 19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Now through Faith in Jesus Christ we receive not only mercy and forgiveness... But also POWER and FREEDOM to obey the law of God... Romans 3:31 says: 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. and Romans 8:4 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This is called "This is called God's LAW OF LIBERTY, (and HE has many)you may know this one,reap what you sow, and so forth... This Law of Liberty, because a Born-again Believer desires to do the will of God, in Psalms 119:25 25And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.... It must never be viewed that it is a freedom to violate the commandments of Christ Jesus, But rather as FREEDOM and POWER to Obey them in Christ JESUS, why.. because the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world... AMEN, and PRAISE GOD For His PERFECT Redemptive Will and Purpose, and PLAN in Christ Jesus, HIS GLORY STORY !!! Hope this has helped... Many Blessed Regards...
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 16, 2006 11:17:04 GMT -5
RevK, What translation do you read? I read the NIV (Never Improved Version), but the translation you read may have a great deal to do with you misunderstanding. If your view be true, then Paul was a hypocrite, that my freind is heresy.
Rev you have been to seminary right? They obviously taught hermanuetics, did they teach that 6, 7, 8 are really a string because the greek had no chapter divisions and verse numbers or punctuation. We need to remember that I think if we ever hope to properly interpret scripture. But that is just my two cents.
However I do heartily agree that Paul is talking about his per-conversion life for this reason in verses five and six, v. 5, "For when we were in the flesh..." v.6, "but now we are delivered..." wihch sets the literary tone.
Could Paul possible be using what he taught in Galatians here, "The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ..." Verse 9, "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." If he were dead in this context, "For he that is dead is freed from sin" (6:7), then you view absolutely fails, or he fell away and returned, which flops your theology on it head.
Just my two cents, any thoughts.
Yes, I would have to agree there with a hearty AMEN.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 16, 2006 13:39:12 GMT -5
RevK, What translation do you read? I read the NIV (Never Improved Version), but the translation you read may have a great deal to do with you misunderstanding. If your view be true, then Paul was a hypocrite, that my freind is heresy. Rev you have been to seminary right? They obviously taught hermanuetics, did they teach that 6, 7, 8 are really a string because the greek had no chapter divisions and verse numbers or punctuation. We need to remember that I think if we ever hope to properly interpret scripture. But that is just my two cents. However I do heartily agree that Paul is talking about his per-conversion life for this reason in verses five and six, v. 5, "For when we were in the flesh..." v.6, "but now we are delivered..." wihch sets the literary tone. Could Paul possible be using what he taught in Galatians here, "The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ..." Verse 9, "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." If he were dead in this context, "For he that is dead is freed from sin" (6:7), then you view absolutely fails, or he fell away and returned, which flops your theology on it head. Just my two cents, any thoughts. Yes, I would have to agree there with a hearty AMEN. I read all the translations except for the KJV...it is kind of hard to understand ;D . I read the NIV for memorization, the NASB for reading (it's the most literal word for word from the Greek) and I like to look at the Greek for study. Nah, I didn't go to seminary...there really aren't many good ones out there these days. I learn more on my own then I do from teachers anyway. Plus, I have prayed about it quite often and don't feel led by the Lord to do so. I do have a Bachelor's Degree though. I think that I have made my views on this passage quite clear brother. I don't have time to repeat them either, nor do I have any desire to. I don't preach "incomplete repentance" and anyone who has heard me preach (whether inside or outside) will tell you that. I agree with what John MacArthur says regarding this Scripture...and not just because he is John MacArthur or because I agree with him on everything, but because we agree. Here is what his commentary says on this verse: www.pinpointevangelism.com/MacArthur-Romans7_14-8_4.pdf
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Post by josefurban on Apr 16, 2006 19:32:48 GMT -5
I feel it utterly impossible to hold back from saying that those who think that Romans 7 is the normal Christian experience are deceived and those who Romans 7 describes are sold into sin and therefore do not know the Gospel liberty that is in Christ. It is for freedom that Christ set us free...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom...if you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free...whoever the Son sets free is free indeed. What is this freedom? It is freedom from sin and freedom from the bondage of the devil!!! Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and sin is the work of the devil. If sin isn't destroyed in those who have been genuinely converted, then Christ failed his mission. God forbid! I am grieved that anyone would suppose you could walk in a Romans 7 experience and still be saved. If you are set free then you are not in bondage! Why do you not consult the Holy Spirit whom our beloved Lord Jesus sent to testify of the truth and lead us into all understanding? For He Himself will testify of the freedom that is in Christ Jesus and the transforming power of God's grace to set us free from sin and impart within us a pure heart that is undefiled with the stain of original sin by the love of Christ which surpasses all understanding. We die to self to be resurrected with Christ by the power of His Spirit to walk in the newness of life, quickened by the transforming power of His resurrection that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in our mortal flesh as long as we walk in the Spirit in obedience and submission to the will of God. When this is reality, we step into a close intimacy with God and even behold His image, being transformed into the same image from glory to glory! Hallelujah! This is the NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE. Which reminds me, please read this free book by Watchman Nee called the "Normal Christian Life": www.revivalarmy.com/normalChristianLife.htm. To explain Romans breifly: Romans 1-3 describe the universal guilt of mankind. Romans 4-5 describe the glorious truth of justification by faith. Romans 6 describes the relationship between sin and sanctification. Conclusion: those who are sanctified are freed from the power of sin, period. Romans 7 deals with those who would throw up some objections to Romans 6, as Paul addresses those who know the law, and in it Paul describes the relationship between the Law and Sanctification. Romans 8, the O so glorious and great Holy Spirit chapter of the Holy Writ, describes the wonderful correlation between Sanctication and the Holy Spirit. What is the conclusion of the whole matter? Those that are in Christ are dead to sin, freed from sin, have power over the dominion of sin, do not serve sin but serve righteousness & holiness, and walk as Jesus walked by the power of the same Spirit that quickened Him on this earth, because as He is, so are we in this world. Sanctification is essential to walking the normal Christian life, and cannot be obtained by following the Law as Romans 7 clearly demonstrates. Sanctification is by faith in Christ, for Jesus is our Sanctification, and is obtained by dying to self, being born again, and walking by the Spirit of the Living God!
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Post by Rodgers on Apr 16, 2006 20:07:46 GMT -5
Don't Romans 6 and 7 seem to contradict themselves if they are both about how we should be living as Christians?
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