hereby we do know

[jhopper]

In society today the fundamental historical facts of Christianity are widely accepted. History readily acknowledges the early Christian movement started by a man named Jesus. Society will not argue the existence of Jesus Christ; yet, though society may think they know who he was and Christians who he is…still he is the most misunderstood individual in history.

Christ’s Identity

A PBS special identified the Lord as being the leader of a splinter movement derived from the Jewish religion, a man who upset the Jewish hierarchy, who opposed the status quo, and was crucified by the same. Society from the outside looking in at Christianity understands Christ to have been a confrontational, non-conformist against the grain individual. This understanding of his character holds validity, as the Gospels are nearly exclusively dialogue, dialogue full of confrontation and opposition. In our Era, the world can acknowledge he came into it and opposed it but, still they know him not.

For the most part the world has never questioned Christ’s existence, his identity, his life, ministry and the movement that was produced by him; these facts are unarguable. For those professing Christianity these same facts are readily acknowledged as well, for most Christians the addition of one-fact separates they’re belief from the world, the resurrection. However, the way Christians identify Christ’s character differs from non-professing society. Within most Christendom he has been shaped into a non-confrontational, non-judgmental, longhaired lamb eyed social mainstream loving character. Professing Christians can acknowledge that he came into the world, died and rose again, but still they know him not.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Belief is what should set a Christian apart from the world. If a Christian were prompted to identify himself as such, it would be the “ belief in” Christ’s death resurrection and return that would separate him from non-professing Christianity. This may set a man apart from non-believing society, however the devils also believe there is one god and Tremble. Truly, belief must mean more than acknowledging historical facts. If we simply acknowledge these facts we are doing no more than identifying a person… simply we are doing no more than acknowledging that Christ’s flesh died and was reconstituted. Christ descend into the deep we are told, surely the devils must have seen him come and go, surely the devils must have seen his spirit leave the deep along with the saints that had fallen asleep and were resurrected after his death. Surely if we believe he is Lord because of these facts our belief varies no different from the devils.

Believing in Christ’s name or identity does not constitute belief in Christ; Christ said himself “many will say Lord Lord”, many will identify him as Lord, many (meaning most) who profess this will be turned away. We are told that only those ho do the will of the father will enter into the Kingdom of God.

Belief in Christ

In Greek we find the word belief to be translated:

πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

It comes from the root word of:

πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

And this has root in the word:

πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

If we were to paste these words into what john 3.16 states we would find the meaning of belief to be much binding than what it has become to mean.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth: to have faith in, upon, by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ), believe , commit (to trust), put in trust with persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity, agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield….in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Each of these word encompass believeth: trust, commit, reliance, constancy in such profession; a profession of religious gospel truth, fidelity, trusting, yielding, obeying.

And hereby we do know that we know him.

For most professing Christians belief has become no more than believe. Believe is believeth without the th. Without th believe becomes singular, believeth is different from believe, believeth signifies constancy, it is the continuation of believe. If I only believe once I have experienced, If I believeth I am acting. We do not receive everlasting life because we believed or have trusted, committed relied, professed yielded or obeyed at one time. Judas had an experience with the Lord, he even believed enough to follow him… he still betrayed him. Again… Believeth

What separates those like Judas and the many calling Jesus Lord Lord from those who will enter the kingdom of God is not they’re tongue, it will be in action. One might argue that this suggests works:

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Why does James refer to those professing such as being vain? It is because vanity is empty, vanity is defined as nothing and likewise belief can be vain. Those who will be accepted into the kingdom of God are those that will do the will of the Father and those that believeth. Again to beliveth means to trust, commit, reliance, constancy in such profession; a profession of religious gospel truth, fidelity, trusting, yielding, obeying.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Knowing and believing is obeying, if we do not obey and believe him we don not know him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John lived as the Lord lived, he was boiled in a pot of hot liquid and banned to the isle of Patmos, Paul was beheaded, Peter hung on a cross upside-down and was beheaded as well, James was thrown from a porch on the Temple then stoned to death. These men suffered these things because they lived as the Lord lived, they didn’t live as hippies traveling around the world telling the world Jesus loved it, they would have never died for this type of message… Christ died because he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Likewise, the Apostles died for the same, they died for the Word, they didn’t simply die because they professed to be Christians they died because of the message they preached. They Preached the Word, and Christ is the Word.

Christ’s Word are who he is and was, it is only by us abiding in his words that we have hope of salvation. Christs wordss were commands,

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Teaching whatsoever he commanded…

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[biblethumper]

Jhopper, you expressed the Faith perfectly in this one statement: Knowing and believing is obeying, if we do not obey and believe him we do not know him.

Praise the Lord! May God continue, by His Grace alone, to cause all of us who know Him to walk in purity and holiness of heart until the Day of the Lord.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

[jhopper]

This article is very condensed, so for sake of clarity I need to boil down the concepts being communicated.

The core of this article is about Christs identity; how do we know we know him.

Christs identity has never been in question, history affirms this. Society readily accepts the historical facts surrounding the Christian movement and Christs identity.

The staement of most professing Christians faith revoloves around these facts, the only added tennat is the ressurection. Although belief in Christs ressurection may seperate us from the world, it doesent seperatre us from the profession of the devils as they saw him ressurect/escape from the deep.

It is not hte profeesion of historical facts that validates our faith, the world believes Christ was a living man, the devils believe he escaped the deep. Does this constitute belief?....

If you profess to know christ and these facts are the core of your belief you are no different from a fallen angel... belief must mean more

The bible way of knowing Christ is by obeying we are told in 1 John.
The bible way of abiding in him is to walk as he walked. The apostels did so... they were killed. If we say we know him we ought to hated for theWord.

The word is Chrsits identity, this is a complex concept, Christ is not simply a figure, he wasnt simply a man, he was the word. That is his identity, he is literaly the word of God.

If we try to identify ourselves as christians we must understand that he is more than a historical figure, he is the word of God. We only know him by obeying him as the Word and not the man. If we know him simply as christ the man his identity is no more than that of a man. Only by knowing him as the word do we know him. And if we say that we know him and dont obey him.... we lie...

[biblethumper]

Praise the Lord again!

Obedience to the essentials of the Faith in both Doctrine and Holiness are the means whereby we know Him.

If one obeys not the Gospel of our Lord mark that man and have nothing to do with him.

Praise the Lord that True Sheep will always follow the True Shepherd.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

[newsong]

Amen!

[darcfollowingjesus]

biblethumper said:

Praise the Lord that True Sheep will always follow the True Shepherd.

I agree with the post and it's bringing clarity to who Jesus is, however, we as believers know it is impossible to know everything about Jesus outside of what Holy Writ says. Amen?

Also, to say the True Sheep will always follow the True Shepard makes the assertion that you CAN'T not follow Him if you're a "True Sheep." This is correct, however this does not negate the truth that you and I still have the sin nature in us and we can still, after being born again, follow the sin nature. If that weren't true then the Lord would have no reason to give us warnings regarding that truth. Such as Rom. 8:12-13 and Galatians 5:16-21, etc.. No one can deny that their sin nature still exists within them and it is a continual fight against sin (Heb 12:4) and fighting a fight of faith to remain in Him. Yes I agree we are empowered By the Holy Spirit but again that does not negate the truth that we have the responsibility of crucifying the flesh daily. God won't do that for us. We have responsibility that's my point and if we fail we can fall away.

"Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:24-27 (KJV)

"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:24-27 (NIV)

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:16-21 (KJV)


"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:16-21 (NIV)

I don't want to rain on anyone's thread, however let's speak all the truth as was mentioned in the first post by jhopper when giving the defination of believes: "abstractly constancy in such profession"

[biblethumper]

Praise the Lord we've been redeemed by the Jesus the Redeemer from the Sin nature! Glory to God! Praise the Lord I've received thsi truth from holy Scripture recently and am no longer a slave to the idea that we'll always have a nature in us which compells us to evil! Praise the Lord! All temptation for the Child of God is OUTWARD and not INWARD! Praise the Lord we're given a NEW nature and that old things HAVE passed away and ALL things ARE become new! Glory to God!We've been delievered from the body of Death and have been made partakers of the DIVINE nature! AMEN!

[biblethumper]

Darc... are you a male or female???

[darcfollowingjesus]

I'm male, thanks for asking.

Dan you said:"Praise the Lord we've been redeemed by the Jesus the Redeemer from the Sin nature!"

please give scripture and verse showing this from Holy Writ, because the truth of Galatians 5:16-18 tells us of the battle we as Christians go through with regard to our sin nature.

[newsong]

Dying and Rising with Christ Romans 6

A few years ago the Lord gave me revelation of this chapter especially "sin NO longer has dominion over me" (meaning supreme authority and absolute ownership) We are DEAD to self the old nature and alive in Christ. The old has GONE and the NEW IS here.

6 What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13No longer present your members to sin as instrumentsa of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves of Righteousness
15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations.c For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification.
20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21So what advantage did you then get from the things of which you now are ashamed? The end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5. True Christians HAVE crucified the flesh and live and walk in the Spirit.

15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Romans 7 - 8

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God himself plants us and feeds us. He finishes the work he began in us. He plants us in Christ and feeds us on the living sap; we grow from Glory to Glory until Christ is formed in us fully for Gods Glory. We are in His rest. The victory belongs to God. The battle belongs to the Lord and is already won.

I pray this prayer for all of us and myself. Ephesians 3

14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.


All for the Glory of God! He has written His law in our hearts. If his law is written in our heart our will is yeilded to His will and we will obey Him. We will want to obey him because we love Him. It will be our desire to please him alone and not ourselves. Because we have His law in our heart our very being is that which we preach and teach. We are to be living epistles of the word. Living and walking in the Spirit. We cannot preach life apart from being in this place. The words will be from our intellect rather than what we are. Not I but Christ living in me. We are the living stones. Gods true church in which He dwells.

When we realise it is all about Jesus nothing to do with us it brings humility and there is a great awe of God. We can do nothing apart from Him and he has done all things well and good! We cannot add onto what the Lord has done. We always want to put ourselves in the equation somehow. The battle belongs to the Lord and it is won. "I" does not exist anymore its dead. No longer I but Christ. Its all about Jesus to the Glory of God the Father.

Gods Law written in our Hearts:- www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2506.ht

Read Hosea The Heart and Holiness of God By Campbell Morgan and also The New Covenant Unveiled by David Wilkerson. I cant put some things into words because they are so wonderful given by revelation to our hearts.

Amen, Amen, Amen! I am Free. I am Free. I am Free! because of what the LORD has done for me! There IS PERFECT Liberty. Sin no longer has dominion over me.

[biblethumper]

Ok, Newsong and darc, not to be a nit-picker, but since it was told to ME I thought i may pass it along....

When we post 3 pages worth of whatever it is we're trying to get across, most won;t take the time to read through ANY of it due to it's length.

Some yes, most no.

I was posting the same long-length posts and was asked to cut them short due to readability.

So, not to rain on anyone here, but I had to agree, and I haven;t actually taken the time to read many long long posts; I simply skip them.

As for your Q, darc, my conclusion on the sin nature was recently taken from Scripture, so, the issue is not whether i can show YOU, but can you show ME where the CHRISTIAN has a sin nature.

Wait a sec!

I'm actually not interested in debating the issue; it's an issue which I am convinced on, so no amount of debate is going to suffice fo rme, darc, on this issue or any other with you.

I would encourage you, not to debate a preconceived notion, but to search the Scriptures for yourself, and if one is "wrong" then I would ask that you would pray for such an individual rather than seeking to immediately debate.

God bless.

[newsong]

Short and sweet sounds good! Just got carried away there with the word ya know how it is sometimes...!!! True I havent read all the long ones either! God Bless you too!

[darcfollowingjesus]

Newsong,
I enjoyed your post because it is the Word, however, one question...first one statement.

When we look at Scripture and look at it as to find what supports a "learned understanding" (something that comes from someone or something outside Scripture) rather than an understanding given by revelation through the word, by the Holy Spirit, we are essentially telling God what we want to believe and asking Him to "back us up."

I say that to ask this. All the truths of God's Word that you and any OSAS proponent brings forward but in turn seem to ignore all of the warning Scriptures and absolute commands to obey, which have what happens to those Christians who don't and all of the conditional words, such as if which straight forward tell Christians there are things after salvation we must do to inherit the kingdom of God is that right in God's eyes? I mean after all God gave us all the Word for purpose not for fluff. So what do you do with Scriptures like 1 Timothy 3:6 which squarely fly in the face of the OSAS doctrine?

"He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." (NIV)

"not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;" (Young's Literal Translation)

"Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." (KJV)

OK, thanks Dan....oh, no I was just kidding

[darcfollowingjesus]

This passage is very clear. (the one below) Paul is speaking to Christians and not sinners so in order for the Sin nature (flesh) to be "contrary the one to the other" they have to be in relationship with each other. Again Paul is talking to Christians who have two natures, one of the sinful nature and the other the Holy Spirit fed "new man." A sinner only has one. So it is not possible for this to happen "and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would," if one were dead as you are asserting.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:16-21 (KJV)

also...if the Holy Spirit speaks to the Christians at the Colossian church, through Paul, these words:

"When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming." Col. 3:4-6
then wouldn't it stand to reason that the sin nature is still within a Spirit filled Christian? Because to assert what you're saying would mean the sin nature (flesh) is made dead at conversion, but if that is so why is Paul commanding Christians to "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature" and giving all of the other NT warnings and commands if we don't have to contend against the flesh?

[newsong]

Go to this link:- decapolis.com/faith_/pages/CalvinismCanyouloseyoursal.shtml

and read" Hosea and The Holiness of God" by Campbell Morgan and also "The New Covenant Unveiled" by David Wilkerson. and "The Power of the Blood" Andrew Murray this is downloadable for free from:-
www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0572/5f00.0572.c.htm

When I was saved I believe OSAO even this year I was looking into this myself also my brother but I am convinced of it totally! Even though one of my favourite preachers is Armenian. I cant understand how he is but it doenst put me off His teachings. I am fully convinced. Read these books you will see why.

[darcfollowingjesus]

newsong said:

Go to this link:- decapolis.com/faith_/pages/CalvinismCanyouloseyoursal.shtml

and read" Hosea and The Holiness of God" by Campbell Morgan and also "The New Covenant Unveiled" by David Wilkerson. and "The Power of the Blood" Andrew Murray this is downloadable for free from:-
www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0572/5f00.0572.c.htm

When I was saved I believe OSAO even this year I was looking into this myself also my brother but I am convinced of it totally! Even though one of my favourite preachers is Armenian. I cant understand how he is but it doenst put me off His teachings. I am fully convinced. Read these books you will see why.

newsong,
I respect your opinion and your point of view, but I will not read a book from a known OSAS/Eternal Security teacher such as Wilkerson or any other. I will check the links out though, but the fact of the matter is I try very very hard to NOT read someone's work that I know is in the opposing camp, (that ignores truth from God's Word). It's not that I don't read other opinions or points of view either, because my background is one where I came out of this teaching of OSAS and I no longer desire nor have a need for that type of reading or teaching. I do study them (the OSAS teachers) to know how to respond to people who quote them though to be able to refute the false teachings they put out there. They are a part of MANY teachers that teach this and they are all in agreement with this teaching across the nation and even further out in the world, but does that mean they are right? If that is a standard that we use to establish whose right and whose wrong then the 400 "prophets" that convinced the King of Israel should have been right....but they weren't....and he lost, just as the minority (Micaiah) said. This is an example given to us by God to show us that many will try and only a few will find it. It is not a majority rules thing with God and I for one do not understand how sincere christians can be so willing to accept those teachers that so clearly deny truth. I guard my soul with all precautions given to us in the Word about many false teachers, prophets and christs. MANY. To be a Christian is to be in the minority and this wide spread easy believism gospel of OSAS is not scripture based. No where does Jesus say you will never fall away but He gives clear examples of those who do and who have, i.e., Prodigal Son, Judas and His teaching of the Vine in John 15.

I take the time to study what you have posted through prayer and Word study so I would appreciate the same if you please. I gave two responses using the Word in my past two posts and in one I asked you a question. Please answer. Thank you.

[darcfollowingjesus]

To assert that we no longer have to deal with our sin nature as some are saying here would imply this...

a.) we all agree that as Christians, even after salvation we sin.

b.) so by saying, in my paraphrase, at the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior we no longer have a sin nature, that it's been made dead and gone by the regeneration work of the Holy Ghost at that moment of faith. That would mean you are then controlled by the Spirit and it's not you but Him.

c.) so, when you sin who is it that sinned? Because as you assert your sin nature no longer exists.

[biblethumper]

Glory to God my old nature is dead, dead dead! Praise the Lord!

Tempted? Yes.

The question is:

Where does the temptation to sin ORIGINATE?

Well...as with Christ, it originates from OUTWARD rather than INWARD.

Why?

We died and Christ now lives in us!

Glory to God!

I've been set free from the Doctrine of "Original Sin" (which, by the way, darc, is Calvinistic through and through...and also which gave MOST weight to the "sin nature" of Believers)

Amen!

Glory to God I'm FREE from that "sin nature" doctrine!

I'm FREE from debating the issue!

FREE!

He who the SON sets free...

IS FREE INDEED!

Amen!

[darcfollowingjesus]

biblethumper said:

Glory to God my old nature is dead, dead dead! Praise the Lord!

Tempted? Yes.

The question is:

Where does the temptation to sin ORIGINATE?

Well...as with Christ, it originates from OUTWARD rather than INWARD.

Why?

We died and Christ now lives in us!

Glory to God!

I've been set free from the Doctrine of "Original Sin" (which, by the way, darc, is Calvinistic through and through...and also which gave MOST weight to the "sin nature" of Believers)

Amen!

Glory to God I'm FREE from that "sin nature" doctrine!

I'm FREE from debating the issue!

FREE!

He who the SON sets free...

IS FREE INDEED!

Amen!

This is NOT an answer to this...

To assert that we no longer have to deal with our sin nature as some are saying here would imply this...

a.) we all agree that as Christians, even after salvation we sin.

b.) so by saying, in my paraphrase, at the moment we believe in Jesus as Savior we no longer have a sin nature, that it's been made dead and gone by the regeneration work of the Holy Ghost at that moment of faith. That would mean you are then controlled by the Spirit and it's not you but Him.

c.) so, when you sin who is it that sinned? Because as you assert your sin nature no longer exists.


Yes we are set free from the bondage to sin Dan! But that does not take away from the truth that after salvation and regeneration we still sin from time to time. Now back to the question. Please answer the question in "c.)" after the line of reasoning you have given in a. and b.

[biblethumper]

Christians CAN sin, but do not HAVE to sin.

WHEN Christians sin, the temptation did NOT come from an imaginary "sin nature" but from OUTWARD influence.

As Believers, we have a New Nature and old things are passed away.

Now, I believe that answer is sufficient; I will no longer state my case, as to state it further woul dbe to enter into debate rather than godly discussion....

Praise the Lord we're FREE INDEED!

[darcfollowingjesus]

biblethumper said:

Christians CAN sin, but do not HAVE to sin.

WHEN Christians sin, the temptation did NOT come from an imaginary "sin nature" but from OUTWARD influence.

As Believers, we have a New Nature and old things are passed away.

Now, I believe that answer is sufficient; I will no longer state my case, as to state it further woul dbe to enter into debate rather than godly discussion....

Praise the Lord we're FREE INDEED!

Christians CAN sin, but do not HAVE to sin.
No one is saying a Christian HAS to sin, it's WHEN you do.

WHEN Christians sin, the temptation did NOT come from an imaginary "sin nature" but from OUTWARD influence.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15
Now, I am not debating, just stating the facts from the Word so we don't err from the truth. According to the Word, God tells us (one of the ways we are tempted) we are tempted by our own lusts. If we are New as we know the Word says then where do our lusts come from?

As Believers, we have a New Nature and old things are passed away.
Again I agree, but how is it that you can sin, not that you have to?

Now, I believe that answer is sufficient; I will no longer state my case, as to state it further woul dbe to enter into debate rather than godly discussion....
You believe you have answered but you are deceived! How is it that you can sin, not that you have to? If your sin nature is no longer then "HOW," by what nature, the old sin nature or the NEW man? or are you saying it was the driver in the car in front of you, that cut you off, that you cussed at and flipped off is the one responsible for your sin?

[biblethumper]

Praise the Lord! I honestly have absolutely no desire to respond with an answer to this issue..so, I'll rather take this monent to thank the Lord for His Abundant Mercy and Grace in allowing me to die to this type of debate and deception! GLORY TO GOD I AM FREE!

The answer is ALWAYS Jesus!

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

[darcfollowingjesus]

biblethumper said:

Praise the Lord! I honestly have absolutely no desire to respond with an answer to this issue..so, I'll rather take this monent to thank the Lord for His Abundant Mercy and Grace in allowing me to die to this type of debate and deception! GLORY TO GOD I AM FREE!

The answer is ALWAYS Jesus!

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge the Truth Dan? It's not me that you are kicking against it is the Holy Ghost and the Eternal Word. Let them bring change and stop resisting, that just lends to a hardening of the heart. I'm not speaking in riddles here, just straight forward Truth of the Word. I have no agenda other than being enlightened by new revelations of God and His Word and passing on those revelations as they come to me.

[biblethumper]

Darc: I have no agenda other than being enlightened by new revelations of God and His Word and passing on those revelations as they come to me.

My response would be to exhort you to reject all "new" revelations of God and His Word.

Stick to the old paths, darc.

Also, let's join together in simpy praising the Lord

Glory to God!

Jesus Christ is Lord, God, and Redeemer!

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

[darcfollowingjesus]

biblethumper said:

Darc: I have no agenda other than being enlightened by new revelations of God and His Word and passing on those revelations as they come to me.

My response would be to exhort you to reject all "new" revelations of God and His Word.

Stick to the old paths, darc.

Also, let's join together in simpy praising the Lord

Glory to God!

Jesus Christ is Lord, God, and Redeemer!

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Dan Quote: My response would be to exhort you to reject all "new" revelations of God and His Word.

Stick to the old paths, darc.

Dan,
My friend this is called Christian growth, receiving new revelation of truth from God. This is God's way of opening up new understanding to new converts and to Christians at all levels of growth. You've even misunderstood this. The Lord Jesus said " Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. " If this doesn't happen you are dead spiritually! You should never stop. To stop would be to say you've arrived and there is no need for anything more. Do you know all that you need to know about the Christian life and living Dan?

"Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"
Eph 1:15-19

[biblethumper]

Glory to God! His Grace, Mercy and Calling are so so so so amazing!

This is why they call it "Amazing Grace"!

Praise the Lord!

[darcfollowingjesus]

Dan,
In the name of Jesus, stop this diversion. You remind me of a kid on the playground running around with fingers in your ears saying "la la la la la la, I can't hear you."

I would hate to be someone who came to your office (if you have one) with a serious issue to get understanding on, because, with my experience with you I would either be shamed and ridiculed out of your office being called a heretic, false convert, liar, blasphemer or believe that my wife, who's sleeping around on me is still saved and is just going to be chastised by God for being a bad daughter! But there again I would probably go away feeling like I should just go out and have sex with the next woman that walked down the street, because hey I wouldn't lose my salvation, after all David did it and never lost his salvation! Which would leave me very confused and not knowing which direction to turn next, because of the fact that you, when pressed for an answer, never will answer when it gets down to where the rubber meets the road! Not good qualities of someone who is supposed to be an associate pastor. I might even get to the point where I just give up, decide to go home and end it all by blowing my head off, because I'll still go to heaven...once a son always a son!

And don't tell me you didn't start this because if you don't want to debate then don't make comments to what's being said, OK.
I am upset with you right now, due to the fact that this is typical for you everytime you are check-mated or just don't know!

[biblethumper]

Darc, the Lord's Grace will not allow me to engage with you in this type of discussion any further, as I have stated and as you se eI have and am obeying... you may call it what you will, yet the Voice of the Shepherd compels me to continue in my withdrawl from debate

Glory to God! Praise the Lord!

1 Cross + 3 Nails = 4Given

[darcfollowingjesus]

I stand by my last statement.

In Christ Jesus,
darc

[biblethumper]

Praise the Lord Glory to God! We have Jesus and because we have Jesus we have eternal life! Amen!