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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 18:04:54 GMT -5
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 15, 2006 12:04:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the post. I got it from TruthInHeart.com on a cd called "Charles G. Finney Memorial Library" and the cd also includes: The works of Asa Mahan, Flethcher, Wesley, Bunyan, Edwards, Murray, and others.
Many have accused Finney wrongly of being a wolf in sheeps clothing. This is sad. Others have misrepresented his views even on OSAS because he writes of perseverence of the saints. However, a read of this doctrine in his theology, along with his sermons (all of which are on the cd I have) clearly show he wrote that some who started saved, didn't end up saved because the backslide and perished.
Evan found a hard copy of Finney's Theology recently and I showed him this same point from his book.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 18, 2006 16:02:34 GMT -5
My joy and excitement reading through Finneys Systematic Theology has been like that of a child in a candy store. It's really exciting stuff.
I printed it off the computer and had it nicely bound at Kinkos. The binding at Kinkos is very cheap, but also very high quality.
I did the math and discovered that to read all 823 pages in 2 months, I simply need to read about 14 pages a day. Not bad.
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Post by sjn on Dec 18, 2006 16:06:42 GMT -5
I purchased a copy of Finney's Systematic Theology about 3 years ago. It's not an old one though (what's the difference?). I've read through different parts frequently but I've never read through it from cover to cover. At this point I'm not quite sure I agree with much of his theology though I highly esteem him as a minister and man of God.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 18, 2006 16:10:51 GMT -5
Bethany House Publishing have reprinted his systematic theology. And others have printed it as well.
But it is highly edited, and arbitrarily so. Some have taken out theology entirely that they didn't agree with. The editing was not merely of the english language, but was a theological editing.
For example, Finney believed in a type of "Once Saved, Always Saved" along the lines of Peseverence of the Saints, that is not in modern reprints, but can be found in the 1851 Edition.
Though the 1851 Edition is also edited, it was edited by Finney himself.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 18, 2006 21:43:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the post. I got it from TruthInHeart.com on a cd called "Charles G. Finney Memorial Library" and the cd also includes: The works of Asa Mahan, Flethcher, Wesley, Bunyan, Edwards, Murray, and others. I also have this CD. I got it a long time ago and will be looking at it more now...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 27, 2006 14:47:10 GMT -5
This is a cover I made if anyone wants to print the PDF file off as a book:
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2006 12:18:33 GMT -5
Jesse:
As I told you yesterday, praise God! When I read through Finney a year ago, I felt the same way. I had felt like a fish out of water, wondering why I had so many questions with what I had been taught, until I read Charles Finney and found someone who thought the Bible meant what I thought it did.
Praise God, my spirit leaps for joy with yours, but since I am 6' 2" maybe a little higher!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 29, 2006 14:15:00 GMT -5
I know what you mean!
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Post by aaron on Dec 30, 2006 1:29:25 GMT -5
Hey all. Jesse, if you enjoy reading Finneys systematic theology, you may also enjoy reading a few (12) of his unpulished lectures that precede his theology. I love reading Finney too. I have read most of his systematic theology and love re-reading it. Great stuff. There is so much. Here is a site that hosts all of Finney's original sermons and books unabriged (including his systematic theology). The main site: www.gospeltruth.net/The 12 unpublished lectures that preceed his theology: www.gospeltruth.net/1860unpublished_theology/unpub_contents.htmHave a good one. -Aaron
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Post by josh on Jan 1, 2007 0:59:24 GMT -5
A quick question for those who are fans of Finney how do you respond to things like: www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htmAlso has anyone read B.B Warfield: Perfectionism, in which he dismantles Finney's theology.
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Post by aaron on Jan 1, 2007 1:25:18 GMT -5
Hey all. If you like Finney here is a site that has most of his sermons in an audio format. Ideal for a CD or IPod. It has his entire systematic theology in MP3 format. Gold. www.finneyworks.com/CF04.htmlEnjoy. -Aaron
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Post by John McGlone on Jan 1, 2007 19:20:13 GMT -5
Hey guys, I hear that Finney did not believe in the doctrine of original sin. If that is true, what are your positions?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 2, 2007 11:33:47 GMT -5
Many of them agree with him on OS.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 2, 2007 16:48:59 GMT -5
I agree with him that the bible says we are born with physical depravity. Thus, we inherit death from Adam as a child may inherit aids from his parents. And this physical depravity may incline is, though not force us, to sin.
But moral depravity is our own doing, a voluntary choice to be selfish and choose sin.
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Post by aaron on Jan 4, 2007 8:01:37 GMT -5
I pretty much believe everything that Jesse just said. The doctrine of original sin that makes sin an inevitable occurance I disagree with. If the will is not free there can be no moral action and thus no sin. (which we know is incorrect).
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 4, 2007 11:22:16 GMT -5
If according to this belief a person is not "born in sin" then it would be possible for someone to live quite a long time before sinning. Is that correct?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 4, 2007 11:31:36 GMT -5
I bet I can be easily refuted on this point, but I would like to see what happens. Where does the Bible say why Adam physically died? And does that answer bear any relevance to the rest of humans?
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 4, 2007 11:47:30 GMT -5
The Bible says that all died because all sinned
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Post by josh on Jan 4, 2007 11:51:35 GMT -5
I bet I can be easily refuted on this point, but I would like to see what happens. Where does the Bible say why Adam physically died? And does that answer bear any relevance to the rest of humans? Death is only a result of sin, no sin - no death. the soul who sins shall die. - Ezekiel 18:4 (ESV) The reason Adam died is because he sinned against God.
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Post by josh on Jan 4, 2007 11:52:54 GMT -5
Thus, we inherit death from Adam as a child may inherit aids from his parents. And this physical depravity may incline is, though not force us, to sin. So is it possible for someone to be born and go the rest of their life without sinning? If so then shouldn't that person not die? If we inherit the penatly of sin from Adam, why then aren't we born into sin?
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 4, 2007 12:00:11 GMT -5
I bet I can be easily refuted on this point, but I would like to see what happens. Where does the Bible say why Adam physically died? And does that answer bear any relevance to the rest of humans? Genesis 3:17-19 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 4, 2007 12:02:57 GMT -5
I pretty much believe everything that Jesse just said. The doctrine of original sin that makes sin an inevitable occurance I disagree with. If the will is not free there can be no moral action and thus no sin. (which we know is incorrect). Aaron are you saying that a person can live even 10 20 60 or 80 years without sinning even once?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 4, 2007 12:07:47 GMT -5
Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Was the verse that was on my mind.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 4, 2007 12:11:36 GMT -5
I tend to believe that the "death that passed upon all men" was the death that happened in the day that Adam ate. What death entered in when sin entered in? Physical or spiritual- or both?
Which one entered in by "one man" which one entered in because of what the Lord decided? The very moment sin entered death did also. If someone were to think that the sin mentioned was a spiritual thing, why wouldn't the death mentioned right after it be spiritual (Romans 5:12).
Babies die...
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 4, 2007 12:17:40 GMT -5
Because babies are born in sin
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Post by josh on Jan 4, 2007 21:58:44 GMT -5
That they do, it shows sin from birth.
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Post by aaron on Jan 5, 2007 8:56:54 GMT -5
Wow that was blown out of proportion. Ah... I believe it is possible to live without sin yes, but the bible does say all have sinned. Which all have at some point. I do believe we can live an indeffinate time without sin. Who's to say we must sin? The bible tells us not to. God hates sin. Must I sin once an hour....a day.....a month? If I do, how must I sin? Must I lie? steal? Give some specifics. I'm not saying I will live without sin, indeed I will try but I'm also not saying that I will sin either. It comes down to the specific time of temptation. God is more than capable of delivering us from all sin "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me".
In reply to Josh. You are saying that for one to die they must first sin. This can't be true. Babies die yet they have not sinned. They can't even tell their left hand from their right let alone posses enough inteligence to distinguish between what is right and wrong and then furthermore to go on to choose the wrong. Keep in mind that Christ died also. To say that we must sin to die is to imply that Christ sinned in some way. This we also know to be incorrect. Death could not hold Christ down. But He was still in the grave for 3 days before he rose again.
Sin brought death into the world in the case of Adam. From him we inherit the 'physically' depraved body (ie not moraly depraved as in the case of original sin). Our bodies are suceptable to disease, death, fatigue etc. Morally though, we still posses concience to know right from wrong and a free will to choose between the two. Of coarse as Christians we are aided by the Holy Spirit to choose the former.
Anyway, I don't think this is the proper place to discuss this. Maybe start another post if you with to continue this discussion. I don't want to argue though. If your mind is closed, any further discussion will be futile and will only be the cause of dissention. I don't want this. I respect your right to believe what you do, even if I do not agree. We all are brothers and sisters in Christ and at least agree on the fundementals of Christianity. That is what is important.
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Post by aaron on Jan 5, 2007 9:04:30 GMT -5
I tend to believe that the "death that passed upon all men" was the death that happened in the day that Adam ate. What death entered in when sin entered in? Physical or spiritual- or both? Which one entered in by "one man" which one entered in because of what the Lord decided? The very moment sin entered death did also. If someone were to think that the sin mentioned was a spiritual thing, why wouldn't the death mentioned right after it be spiritual (Romans 5:12). Babies die... I agree with Josh. Many verses people often take as meaning physical death when in fact they could be refering to spiritual death which makes a ton of more sense. Especially in the case of that verse in Romans.
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Post by josh on Jan 5, 2007 9:26:26 GMT -5
In reply to Josh. You are saying that for one to die they must first sin. This can't be true. Babies die yet they have not sinned. Thats not what I say, but rather wha the Bible says. It goes to show Original sin.
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