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Post by originalsin on Oct 9, 2007 20:06:43 GMT -5
Often we appeal to logic as the court of final appeal. Open Theism relies on logic to understand God. Yet one cannot prove logic without begging the question, can you prove logic witout appealing to logic? No, When Jesus said "all things are possbile with God" He meant all. Things that are outside the domain of human knowledge and grasp of reason.
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Post by joem on Oct 9, 2007 20:44:09 GMT -5
Often we appeal to logic as the court of final appeal. Open Theism relies on logic to understand God. Yet one cannot prove logic without begging the question, can you prove logic witout appealing to logic? No, When Jesus said "all things are possbile with God" He meant all. In a closed system, only that which was foreknown is possible. If all things are possible, the future has to be partially open. Classic theism claims to understand the nature of God, which according to your post, is beyond our grasp. On one hand, the Classical Theist says "We know for certain that God has exhaustive foreknowledge", but when faced with scripture that shows a partially open future, they say "It's beyond our ability to understand". Both the open view and the closed view claim to understand how God exist in relationship to His creation, only the closed view says that God cannot have original thoughts, actions or decisions, and therefor denies the present linear existence of God. The open view takes a position that is consistent with allowing all the scriptures to be taken at face value, while the closed view does not. If we are going to say that "these things are just beyond our grasp, and we should just accept them by faith", who gets to say which position we should accept. We can accept the traditional understanding passed along by word of mouth, or we can consult the Word of God. If we are to be faithful to the scriptures, we must determine which position the Bible supports. If we come to a position based upon the entirety of scripture, should we reject it because we found a logical explanation? I don't think so. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 9, 2007 20:46:16 GMT -5
Well put Joe.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 9, 2007 21:35:54 GMT -5
Does not an Open Theist, from necessity, believe that once we are in Heaven there can be, in the Future, a Second Fall, since God doesn;t know one way or the other according to Open Theism?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 9, 2007 21:47:21 GMT -5
Something to consider:
In Classical Theism, if God foreknows a fall, that fall is unavoidable - inevitable - and certain. What God accurately foreknows must certainly come to pass. God could do nothing to avoid what He foreknows will certainly occur.
In a closed system, God cannot influence or change or determine the future. It is eternally and exhaustively settled already.
In Open Theism, God foreknows all future possibilities and all future probabilities. If God foresees a possible fall, He can do a great deal to avoid it and prevent it. What God foreknows as a possibility is still avoidable and changeable.
In an open system, God is able to steer, control, influence, change, and determine the future.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 9, 2007 22:44:35 GMT -5
Can you directly answer witha yes or no?
"Does not an Open Theist, from necessity, believe that once we are in Heaven there can be, in the Future, a Second Fall, since God doesn't know one way or the other according to Open Theism?"
Is the above scenario possible in Open Theism?
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Post by evanandliz on Oct 9, 2007 23:03:59 GMT -5
"Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God of God the Father..."
The foreknowledge of God is a necessary requisite for God to be God. The very fact that scripture uses terminology such as, foreknowledge, predestined, before the foundation of the world, etc., gather a well rounded case for classical theism. Prophetic scripture such as Daniel 9, the entire Revelation, and such the like, these are utterly impossible in the open theist viewpoint and should actually be rejected as "straw" to use the phraseology of Luther. the absolute foreknowledge of God must be presupposed in order to even understand large portions of scripture like Romans 8-11 concerning the apostasy and final reconciliation and restoration of Israel.
The five fold ministry would be quite useless if the God of the fivefold ministry did not hold any prescience as the chiefest of those are apostle and prophet, which both operate in a foreknowledge of sorts by the revelation of God as it coincides with the prophetic scriptures.
How exactly does God the Father know that the anti-Christ will be killed with a fatal blow? How does He know that there will be a final battle and that satan will be bound and cast into the lake of fire? How does He know who is elect? How are all His works known unto Him from the foundation of the world, as well as all of the works that will work together with His? How does He know that all of Israel that survives Jacob's trouble will be saved at last? How does He know that the Jews who are alive as He returns will weep and mourn as the look upon Him whom they have pierced? How does He know that ALL will stand at the judgment seat, perhaps some will run away? I could go on for hours brothers.
All that God foreknows indeed must come to pass, else God would not have known foreknown them to come to pass. Things are to yet future come to pass are foreknown by God to yet future come to pass. If a thing is not to come to pass, God foreknows it so. It really is not a hard concept to grasp unless we have a theology that does not allow for the foreknowledge of God.
I would appreciate answers to all of this if possible.
-- Evan
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Post by evanandliz on Oct 9, 2007 23:12:16 GMT -5
Another point that must be made, and that presupposes this entire discussion is the fact that God exists outside of time, "the high and lofty one that inhabits eternity". Since we are dealing with God, who is trancendant of creation, which is a philosophical neccessity as the thing created cannot be part of the creator - the cause cannot be the same as the effect - we must interpret scripture with this mindset in view. So please commence this discussion with right presuppositions. Locke said, "the madman rightly reasons from wrong presuppositions".
-- Evan
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Post by Brother Adiel on Oct 9, 2007 23:32:38 GMT -5
The god of open theism does not know for certain who will be saved. He does not know who the next President will be. He also does not know who will win the World Series this year. Neither does he know which teams will make it there! He does not even know what I will say in my next post! He truly is the god who does not know.
For those who missed it, here is a good article written by John Piper that talks about:
The Enormous Ignorance of God When God Doesn't Know the Future Choices of Man By John Piper December 2, 1997
In what follows, when I refer to God's knowing I mean his certain knowing, not his extraordinary ability to deduce probabilities from known facts. In the view that I am concerned to understand, namely, the view of Greg Boyd and others concerning the foreknowledge of God, what is denied is certainty in God concerning future volitions of human beings, and what is affirmed is the human capacity to contradict God's best prognoses, because of the God-given capacity of creative free choice. For God not to know future volitions of humans is not a small ignorance but a huge one, unimaginably huge. It is, for example, not a periodic ignorance, but a continual one; not a narrow ignorance, but a universally human one; not an insignificant ignorance, but a tremendously significant one; not a confined ignorance, but a diverse one (relating to all things a person can choose).
1. Diverse Ignorance
It is a diverse ignorance. In all my waking moments (and perhaps in my dreams) my will is inclining one way or the other concerning this or that thought to think, this or that emotions or attitude to savor or resist, this or that word to speak, or this or that movement of the body to make. Of all these diverse acts of mind, emotion, and body, God is ignorant up to the actual point of volition that performs or shapes them. So God does not know for sure my thoughts, the full nature of my emotions or attitudes, my words or my bodily acts one second before they come to pass. His ignorance is as diverse as are the aspects of life affected by human volition.
This would also include not only the thoughts, emotions, attitudes, words, and deeds happening in me, but also all the effects that come from all those acts of my will. Thus the diversity of the ignorance expands to the physical effects on my body that actually result from my thoughts and emotions, and the effects of my emotions on all the other people and things in my life. (God can know what effects would come if I release and do not resist anger or joy or gratitude or lust, but he cannot know the actual effects on people or things.) God does not know if my unresisted anger will result in a harsh word or a sneer or a swing of the fist or the pull of a trigger. He does not know if my unresisted discouragement will result in my not going to work or my committing suicide or my walking away from my marriage. He does not know if my chosen word will be one that saves life (as when my wife hollered, "Johnny!" as I started to step into Cambridge traffic a few years ago) or destroys life (as when a gang leader says, "Shoot!"). He does not know if my chosen deeds will make an airplane crash or cause a law to pass.
It also is evident, therefore, that the immense diversity of God's ignorance unleashes an even more immense ignorance of the diversity of effects resulting from each of the unknown thoughts, emotions, words, and deeds. Every volition as it produces or shapes thought, emotion, word, and deeds is like a cue ball that hits a triangle of billiard balls. The path of every one is unknown ahead of time by God. This, I say, is an immense ignorance because most of the events in the emotional, intellectual, verbal, and material world are caused or shaped by acts of human volition directly or indirectly. Of all these countless things God is ignorant until they actually happen.
2. Universally Human Ignorance
Now multiply the immense diversity of God's ignorance of my thoughts, emotions, words, and deeds times all the humans in the world. Not only is there a huge divine ignorance of my diverse life of thought, emotion, attitude, word, and deed, but he is also ignorant of all of that in all people everywhere who have wills. Race or age or intellect or sex or education or tribe does not limit his ignorance. As far as diversity in human nature and culture extend, so far does God's ignorance extend of what thoughts, emotions, attitudes, words, and deeds every person will choose or shape by his or her volition. Everywhere at all times God is ignorant of all volitions and their effects up to the instant that they are performed by our creative wills.
3. Continual Ignorance
I said above that God is ignorant at all times of what volitions are yet future. Let the magnitude of this ignorance sink in. His ignorance of my thoughts, emotions, attitudes, words, and deeds up to the instant they happen is followed by a continual ignorance that very next instant of what thoughts, emotions, attitudes, words, and deeds may be brought to pass or shaped immediately on the heels of the acts just performed. Thus the instant God gains knowledge of my thoughts, emotions, words, and deeds, the extent and durability of what he now knows is unknown since it may be affected this way or that by the next instance's volition. Thus God is not accumulating useful knowledge with each instance's actualized volition, but is rather besieged by a relentless, never-ending, second-by-second onslaught of immense ignorance that actually causes the knowledge he just gained to be of no certain use since its possible effects in the world of ceaseless new volitions are also unknowable to him.
For example, God discovers that a man chooses to swerve his car into the oncoming traffic the instant the choice is made and the car swerves; but this knowledge is of little use because it is possible in the very next fraction of a second the man's free will may prompt him to swerve back so that if God should miraculously push an oncoming car off into the shoulder with a puff of wind, the man may in that very instant will to swerve to the shoulder. And so the second-by-second free acting of the driver's will runs ahead of God's knowledge and keeps him continually off balance and ignorant until the crash happens or doesn't happen. This continual uninterrupted ignorance of God is therefore immense.
4. Tremendously Significant Ignorance
The ignorance of future human volitions is not insignificant ignorance. Aside from purely natural events like wind, rain, lightening, heat of summer, cold of winter, aging, gravity, subatomic motion of electrons, animal behavior, etc., virtually all the significant reality in life and family and society and nations is the fruit of human volition. All technology, family dynamics, church life, legislation, military affairs, telecommunications, media, literature, drama, theater, architecture, transportation, food production, utilities, etc., etc., are created, shaped, sustained, and guided through moment-by-moment human volition. All of which God is ignorant until it comes to pass. Thus the entire fabric of culture in all its immense significance is being woven without God's knowledge of how each moment, hour, day, month, year, and decade will take shape.
5. Closing Question
Is this the God of the Bible? They would say probably that God can indeed plan and govern, because humans also plan and govern even though they are ignorant like this. Only God understands all relevant influences and so is much more knowing of probabilities than man is and so can plan much better than man can. In other words, God has the same kind of knowledge man does only he's better at it. He can make more probable prognoses concerning what man is about to do. But he is likely to be surprised a million times over. That is, the degree to which men really are free and creative and not governed by circumstance or genetics God shares in the immense ignorance spoken of above.
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Post by evanandliz on Oct 9, 2007 23:42:18 GMT -5
Please dont lose sight of my previous post.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 9, 2007 23:46:12 GMT -5
Can you directly answer with a yes or no?
"Does not an Open Theist, from necessity, believe that once we are in Heaven there can be, in the Future, a Second Fall, since God doesn't know one way or the other according to Open Theism?"
Is the above scenario possible in Open Theism?
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Post by evanandliz on Oct 10, 2007 0:04:38 GMT -5
Can you directly answer with a yes or no? "Does not an Open Theist, from necessity, believe that once we are in Heaven there can be, in the Future, a Second Fall, since God doesn't know one way or the other according to Open Theism?" Is the above scenario possible in Open Theism? Dan, Are you addressing me?? i am not open theist but I will say it is possible in the ope theist perspective, I guess just about anything is. if I run really really fast, and then turn around and run really really fast the other way in the open theist stance God might not be able to see where I went or keep up with me. That is of course satirical. But please answer my previous post any who are open theists. -- Evan
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Post by joem on Oct 10, 2007 7:25:44 GMT -5
Can you directly answer with a yes or no? "Does not an Open Theist, from necessity, believe that once we are in Heaven there can be, in the Future, a Second Fall, since God doesn't know one way or the other according to Open Theism?" Is the above scenario possible in Open Theism? Dan, The link below gives several prominent Open Theist's answers to this question. Your question is really one that has to be addressed by anyone who believes in free will, regardless of whether or not they hold to an open view or closed view. I appreciate your question. Personally, I believe we will be not be tempted to sin, as we will be as Adam was, minus the serpent. I also believe we will know the consequence of sin by seeing its destruction first hand, therefor we will know what sin is, but we will not know it by experience after the day of judgment. The Bible leaves lots of room for speculation regarding what Heaven will be like. Redemption seems to imply that we will be redeemed to a former standing, which is why I believe we will be as Adam was before the fall. I honestly don't believe that Satan or Adam would have sinned, had they seen the conseuence of sin, witnessing the eternal flames of hell. But again, that is purely speculation. opentheism.info/pages/questions/phiq/freewill/freewill_01.phpThe other posts have completely misrepresented the open view (which seems to be a trend here lately). If you are actually seeking understanding of the open view, check out the site linked below regarding Open Theism. It addresses many of the questions posed here. If however, you simply want to take shots and continue to misrepresent the open view, fire away. opentheism.info/pages/questions/Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 10, 2007 8:39:22 GMT -5
I do not agree with Open Theism, but have yet to really study it. I don't like the attitudes of some of those who are against it on this thread. Some of the same questions seem to get asked over and over again, even after they have already been answered by those who hold to Open Theism. Anyway, Joem sent me a picture a while back and he didn't know how to post it on here. I figured I would do it for him. Here it is:
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Post by joem on Oct 10, 2007 9:14:34 GMT -5
I thank God for you Kerrigan, and appreciate you posting that for me. I have yet to become as computer literate as I need to be.
The illustration depicts the eternal now position as formulated by Plato and expanded upon by Augustine. God existing in a singular state of existence, with no past, no future, only a present state of being. The time-line depicts creation, from beginning to end, as God would see it, having exhaustive foreknowledge. If God exist in an eternal now/unchangeable/unprogressive state, and sees creation as such, there could never be a present action of God within creation. Any act of God within creation would had to have taken place in the singular moment of God's existence outside of time. One of the many problems this creates is in relation to the incarnation of Jesus.
Some say that when we die and step into eternity, we will also exist outside of time. If that is the case, we (like God) would never be able to experience anything beyond that singular moment, as experience requires reflection, which requires a past, present and future (time).
The illustration at the bottom shows God existing in a linear fashion. He can certainly cause future events to come to pass, yet He can also allow for contingencies. In the open view, God brought creation into existence, giving us a means of measuring time, not creating time (as if it were a material that could be created). Certainly God can determine to bring things to pass in the future, but He can also act presently, have original thoughts and make original decisions, therefor changing what can be known about the future, perpetually throughout all eternity. This is the only way I can grasp the infinite existence of God, as an eternal now concept would be an infinite state with God would being unable to act presently throughout all eternity.
Most people don't really hold to Classical Theism in practice, just in doctrine.
Anyway, I hope this helps explain my position.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 10:01:15 GMT -5
I was about to say the same thing.
The possibility of sinning in Heaven has to do with whether or not we have a freewill in Heaven. Since freewill means your choices are open and you can make different possible choices. (Open theism is simply the theology of freewill. But that's another issue)
I've said before that because we will have freewill in Heaven, sinning in Heaven is possible, but it is not probable.
That's because those who make it to Heaven are those who were converted in this life, choose to forsake and cease from all sin in this life, persevered to the end despite vicious attacks from the devil, after being surrendered my innumerable temptations, and then finally made it to the place they've been hoping for, to be with the one that they love.
So, after all that, why would any of the Saints in Heaven choose to be sinners?
And in Heaven, they won't have the temptation of the flesh, they will have glorified bodies. And they won't have the temptation of the devil, he will be in hell. And in heaven they won't have sinful influences because only saints will be in heaven.
Considering all of this, sinning in Heaven is "possible" but it is not "probable". It's possible because we will have a freewill. But it is not probably because of the reasons I listed. I don't believe any saint in Heaven would choose to sin.
But one thing is sure, if you don't stop sinning in this life there is no reason to believe you will stop sinning in the next life. The moral condition that we die in will be the moral condition that we wake up in. God will change our physical bodies in the next life, but we must allow God to change our moral condition in this life.
Revelation 22:11 - He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 10:46:43 GMT -5
Jesse Said: The possibility of sinning in Heaven has to do with whether or not we have a freewill in Heaven. Since freewill means your choices are open and you can make different possible choices. (Open theism is simply the theology of freewill. But that's another issue) I've said before that because we will have freewill in Heaven, sinning in Heaven is possible, but it is not probable. That's because those who make it to Heaven are those who were converted in this life, choose to forsake and cease from all sin in this life, persevered to the end despite vicious attacks from the devil, after being surrendered my innumerable temptations, and then finally made it to the place they've been hoping for, to be with the one that they love. So, after all that, why would any of the Saints in Heaven choose to be sinners?
Response: satan himself had no temptations, flesh etc etc.
So, based on that, would you say it is just as probable that a Saint in heaven could excersise his free will to rebel against God, thsu causing a Second Fall?
Also, if you believe it is possible to sin in Heaven, then what do you make of the following?
Revelation 21:3-5 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
If your teaching were correct, these promises from God could not stand as absolute... because if it is in fact possible to sin in Heaven, there would be pain, sorrow, tears etc etc.
So do you consider the above verses to be wishful thinking by God?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 10:55:10 GMT -5
Great question Dan.
My understanding is that Satan rebelled early on in creation. Which makes his circumstances very different then our own. He was still forming his moral character.
Saints in Heaven will be those who have gone through probation. Earth is a probation period when our hearts are tested, our moral characters are developed and tried.
So it is not as probably for a Saint to rebel as it was for the devil to rebel. Saints have already had their moral characters developed, tried, and proven.
Also consider all of the angels which did NOT rebel. If the majority of the angels did NOT rebel against God in the beginning of creation, how much more so will the Saints not rebel since they have had their moral characters developed and tried extensively while on earth.
God knows that Saints will not be sinning in Heaven, because He will only let into Heaven those who have stopped sinning while on Earth, those who have had their moral characters tried and proven. If God let sinners into Heaven, then of course there would be sin in Heaven. But because God will only let Saints into Heaven, there will not be sin in Heaven.
I'm curious Dan as to your answers to these questions. Do Saints in heaven have a freewill? And if so, could they choose to sin in Heaven? If not, why not?
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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 10, 2007 11:06:46 GMT -5
That's a good question. I'm not sure if we will have a free will in Heaven or not. The Bible says that in the twinkling of an eye, we will become like Him. I don't know what that means and what the implications of that are though. It seems to make sense that we will have free will, but that we will use it properly. I know that if I didn't have the corrupted flesh, the world and the devil that I wouldn't sin. I am not blaming my sin on those things, but I can't imagine ever sinning on my own accord like Satan did or even with one exterior tempter like Adam and Eve did...
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 11:07:12 GMT -5
Do Saints in heaven have a freewill? And if so, could they choose to sin in Heaven? If not, why not? I have no set conclusion on the free will aspect of Heaven as of yet... though I lean towards not seeing free Will in Heaven. The only understanding I can see is that if man retains free will in heaven then I see no alternative, unless yuo can show one with Scripture, than the following being wishful thinking on God's part (which I do not believe). Revelation 21:3-5 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. How can these verses be true if God doesn;t know if one will sin in Heaven or not? How can these verses be true if it is possible for man to sin in Heaven, with God not knowing if man will or not?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 11:13:43 GMT -5
Consider this:
If we don't have a freewill in Heaven, we won't be able to freely love God or freely worship God or have a genuine relationship with God.
And isn't that why God gave us a freewill to begin with? So that we could voluntarily love Him, voluntarily worship Him, and voluntarily have a relationship with Him? What would be the point of God giving it to us at all if he will only take it away from us?
Without freewill, for all of eternity Heaven would be void of all real love, all real worship, and all real relationship.
God knows that Saints will not be sinning in Heaven, because He will only let into Heaven those who have stopped sinning while on Earth, those who have had their moral characters tried and proven. If God let sinners into Heaven, then of course there would be sin in Heaven. But because God will only let Saints into Heaven, there will not be sin in Heaven. And God knows that He will only let Saints into Heaven, and so God knows that there won't be any sin in Heaven.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 10, 2007 11:16:20 GMT -5
Interesting..I've never heard that. How long does it take to form moral character?
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 11:21:58 GMT -5
God knows that Saints will not be sinning in Heaven, because He will only let into Heaven those who have stopped sinning while on Earth, those who have had their moral characters tried and proven. If God let sinners into Heaven, then of course there would be sin in Heaven. But because God will only let Saints into Heaven, there will not be sin in Heaven. And God knows that He will only let Saints into Heaven, and so God knows that there won't be any sin in Heaven. But can that Saint in heaven choose to later sin? According to your doctrine of free will, the answer would have to be in the affirmative. According to your Open Theism views, God doesn;t actually know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether a Saint in Heaven will sin once in Heaven for any amount of "time". Hence, once again, is God only being wishful when He says: Revelation 21:3-5 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God s hall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
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Post by joem on Oct 10, 2007 11:22:30 GMT -5
Some food for thought.
The angels in Heaven had free will, and we are told that we will be like the angels in Heaven. The Bible never says that the angels lost their free will after the initial rebellion in Heaven, so I assume they still possess it. The Bible also says nothing about any further falling away in Heaven after the initial rebellion, which leads me to speculate that because the angels who chose not to rebel witnessed the fate of those who did fall, they would never choose to rebel. I tend to think we will be like the angels, also being witnesses of these things, and through the proper exercising of our free will, will not fall away.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 11:22:58 GMT -5
Your first real choice, known and willful choices, form your moral character. But it is developed, strengthened, or weakened, by trials and tests. During those trials and tests, it could change completely.
I suppose it could be argued, that your actual moral character is what you are after those trials and tests.
Though the longer you persist in a certain way, through all the trials and tests, the less likely you are to ever change. Though it has happened. Many persist in sin for long time only to repent and live holy. Your moral character can always change because your will is always free. But it is less likely to change the more trials and tests you go through. It is less likely to change the longer time you persist in it.
These are just some thoughts.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 11:27:48 GMT -5
Jesse, possibly you miseed my post above lol (kidding) ... but please do answer
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 11:31:27 GMT -5
Dan,
Saints could sin in Heaven but Saints won't sin in Heaven, for reasons already listed.
If Saints could not sin, there would be no virtue in them for not sinning. If Saints could not rebel, there would be no virtue in obeying.
Saints will have a freewill in Heaven, which is why Saints will be able to freely love God, freely worship God, and have a genuine relationship with God.
Saints could sin, but Saints won't sin for reasons already listed.
I am sure that there are many other reasons why Saints wont sin in Heaven.
I could only give you a few reasons why Saints won't sin in Heaven.
I am sure that God can give you many reasons why Saints won't sin in Heaven. His understanding is infinite. He knows all the elements and veritable involved.
That is why God is sure that Saints won't sin in Heaven.
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 11:35:53 GMT -5
Dan, Saints could sin in Heaven but Saints won't sin in Heaven, for reasons already listed. 1- If Saints have a free will in Heaven and if Saints could sin in Heaven, where do you get your authority to say they won't sin in Heaven? 2- If God doesn't know whether Saints will sin in Heaven or not, then do you believe He wrote Revealation 21:3-5 based on "being confident" that they won't?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 10, 2007 11:41:01 GMT -5
1. I know that Saints won't sin in Heaven, though they will have a freewill, because God says that they won't sin in Heaven. Revelations 21:3-5.
2. God knows that Saints won't sin in Heaven, Revealation 21:3-5, for reasons which He hasn't shared with us. The bible doesn't tell us why they won't, but simply that they won't.
(Though obviously the "why" is because they love Jesus)
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Post by danlirette on Oct 10, 2007 11:42:24 GMT -5
God knows that Saints won't sin in Heaven, Revealation 21:3-5, for reasons which He hasn't shared with us. You've just stated God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future.
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