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Post by evanschaible on Apr 19, 2006 15:35:23 GMT -5
The classic debate....
Let me set the stage as this is bound to be a good one.
There are two possible pre-suppositions for where the universe came from.
1) God 2) The big bang
First let me address what someone will acuse me of, circular reasoning. And I say that if you accuse me of circular reasoning -proving the bible using the bible- then you must prove you view using nothing secular, no secular literature, nothing that can be deemed secular. I wont use the bible and you cant use secular literature. If you are not up to this challenge than dont accuse me of curular reasoning, if you do accuse me of this then you are a hypocrite.
Now lets begin...
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 19, 2006 15:45:28 GMT -5
Let me first refute the bang theory by on esimple question, where did the matter to make the bang come from?
If you answer that one, next answer this one, where did the space for the bang to happen in come from?
The only logical conlcusion is God. "In the beginning God..." (Gen 1:1)
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Post by Morluna on Apr 19, 2006 17:44:00 GMT -5
There are two possible pre-suppositions for where the universe came from. 1) God 2) The big bang .... First let me address what someone will acuse me of, circular reasoning. And I say that if you accuse me of circular reasoning -proving the bible using the bible- then you must prove you view using nothing secular, no secular literature, nothing that can be deemed secular. I wont use the bible and you cant use secular literature. If you are not up to this challenge than dont accuse me of curular reasoning, if you do accuse me of this then you are a hypocrite. I propose a third option. Why couldn't the Big Bang have been caused by a Divine Creator? It always strikes me as odd how people assume that science and religious faith have to be mutually exclusive. To quote further on the verse you mentioned... "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. And all was void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And God said, 'Let there be Light. And there was Light.'" I would imagine that speaking the universe into creation would be quite a loud and explosive affair... one might even call it a... big... bang. Oh. Gee what a coincidence. Big Bang. On a related note, I'm pretty sure that most scientists no longer even accept the Big Bang theory so this whole discussion could be a moot point... I think some recent discoveries have shown it is unlikely... am I right in saying that? I haven't been keeping up with scientific discoveries of the deep universe lately... not like I used to... Concerning what you said about using secular sources to argue one's point... personally I think that's next to impossible. How can you ask anyone to make an argument and only use your holy book, which they may not accept as fact or even have a working knowledge of, to back up their own statements? Look, you can quote scripture to make your points if you want, great. I have, because I know it is relevant to the Christians on this board. I happen to have a good working knowledge of the Bible, but others may not, so why should they have to know your scriptures to make their own points? So go ahead and use the Bible to back up your arguments if you want. That's fine. Just don't let it be the ONLY thing you use. I think we should use a variety of methods to make our points. Use any source that you think is relevant. If the Bible is relevant, okay. But you should use other sources as well, like scientific studies for example. Variety is key. Just don't rely on one source to make your points. I.E: Don't do like some people on this board and go, "BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE!!!" when you can't think of anything more intelligent to say. I think this could be a really great discussion. I'm excited to see what some people have to say about this. ^_^
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 19:51:32 GMT -5
Isn't that what she said, Morluna dear?
I agree Evan, as I posted in Mor's beliefs thread =)
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Post by Morluna on Apr 19, 2006 20:56:35 GMT -5
Isn't that what she said, Morluna dear? I agree Evan, as I posted in Mor's beliefs thread =) What? No... he said you have to choose one or the other... at least that's how I read it... was I mistaken? [EDIT] Oh. I guess he did kind of say that in his second post... but the first post seems to say that you have to pick between God or the Big Bang and you can't choose both. I'm confused... The beliefs thread is Valentine's, btw. ^_-
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 21:25:20 GMT -5
*gasp* I suck! I'm sorry Valentine! ;_; My bad!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 20, 2006 13:00:41 GMT -5
So, we are at agreement that a divine being exsits, now I will pose the question, which religion is right? If there is a divine being than one must hold the monopoly? The Bible says there is one God, and the Bible is what you have used, as well as me, to prove this(creation). So I assume we are at agreement that the Bible is true. Now, the BIble is a relaible source of truth. It is like a map, if you follow it then it will lead you right to the true God. The God that created the universe as well as the God that can save you from your sin. Jesus is the lamb f God that was slain, He died that you may go free. All you have to do is repent, trust in his sacrifice live in holiness. You will never kno the truth of you dont try evey avenue.
God bless.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 20, 2006 19:00:48 GMT -5
Sorry, but you're incorrect in your assumptions and the path you've followed in your argument.
No one, not even you, used the Bible to justify it.
I use simple observation and what I consider common sense. I never said that God still played an active role in existence.
You pointed out that the Bible is right on one point. Simply because the Bible got one thing right (in respect to what we believe) doesn't justify the truthfulness of the rest of the book. If that's the case, though, I think I'll go write a book with a similar beginning, then make up anything I want and call it true. Not saying the Bible does that, but making my point - you've made an argument that doesn't hold water.
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Post by changetion on Apr 21, 2006 22:51:36 GMT -5
First let me address what someone will acuse me of, circular reasoning. And I say that if you accuse me of circular reasoning -proving the bible using the bible- then you must prove you view using nothing secular, no secular literature, nothing that can be deemed secular. I wont use the bible and you cant use secular literature. If you are not up to this challenge than dont accuse me of curular reasoning, if you do accuse me of this then you are a hypocrite. No one can argue under these terms. This means using no scientific sources, or authorities, or evidence. Without these things, no one can build an argument. You can't prove the Big Bang with purely a priori reasoning. How is anyone supposed to answer you?
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Post by elwing96 on Apr 21, 2006 22:59:38 GMT -5
good point
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Post by josh on Apr 21, 2006 23:03:37 GMT -5
Big bang - In the beginning there was nothing, and then nothing exploded (Just think about that for a bit). That is what we are taught in school, you came from nothing, that expoloded.
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Post by elwing96 on Apr 21, 2006 23:05:00 GMT -5
i'm curious as to the opinions on the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 22, 2006 12:35:02 GMT -5
Rather maddening isnt it. That is what you do to us. We are telling you what the Bible says and that it is true, and you say we are using circular reasoning and cant do that. But yet you tell us, out of your literature that we dont belive, why your viewpoint is true. I thought I would level the playing field. You see the fallacy in your circular reasoning judgement. In cant be done.
Like Josh said, what exploded? Even better, where did the explosion take place? If there was nothing to explode and nowhere for it to explode, I ask this question, did it really happen?
Lets jump foraward a couple million speculative years to the first living thing, which no one can prove where it came from. For what reason did a gill breathing animal crawl up onto land? Necessity did not call for it, for the animal breathes under water. Why did it suddenly feel the urge to crawl out?
If you dont believe in what I am refuting, but you say God started the evolutionary process, was adam and ape? Did apes evolve into the first man? You cant belive the Bible and evolution, and you certainly cannot harmonize the two either.
Heres another one, where did plants come from? Did they evolve from that one living creature too? Under that hypothesis pine trees and humans are directly related with no structural similarities.
The only logical and provable outcome is that God created all that we see, each animal after it own kind, and humans in His image. If that be true, then you are in serious trouble if you dint repent and trust in Christ. I dont care if you believe the whole Bible or not, you belief or non-belief doe snot negate reality. Truth is truth whether you believe it is or not, if it wasnt than it wouldnt be truth. You are a sinner, and you need Jesus, you jneed to repent or you will perish, so please, repent and trust Jesus to save your soul from sin and hell.
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 22, 2006 20:12:20 GMT -5
--if you don't want to read more about circular reasoning skip down to number 2. thanks.
1. i am assuming you were directing that outcry towards me, but i agree with a few of the others who said it impossible to even make a sound theory without using logic and/or the scientific method--which is in and of itself, secular. however, that is not what i was implying. let me put circular reasoning in laymen's terms since i obviously did a poor job of it last time:
"god is real because you cannot prove otherwise." "god is not real because you cannot prove his existence."
both these arguments are empty. one is christian, and the other is secular. both can be wrong! we all know that people from both sides of the aisles make silly conjectures and that is the point i was getting at.
"god is real because he speaks to me." "god is evil because of death."
see. these are all silly, circular conjectures that cannot be proven or validated. these are statements, and not so much circular arguments (i want to make that clear to people who have already realized that) but its the statements and patterns of discussion that follow that cause circular reasoning.
blah. anyway, i cannot think of a relevant example from this board because no one has really used circular reasoning since ive been here. i posted it because i wanted people to talk about it.
i guess i should get on topic:
2. first of all, are presuppositions theories?
here is what christians 'forget.' the big bang theory is not scientific law, and neither is evolution (i have to throw that into the mix). they are theories. nothing more, nothing less. in fact, if you are listening to the 'scientific air-waves' these days you will pick up an interesting signal. less and less scientists are committing themselves to the big bang theories and evolution theories of old. new theories are making their way into the field through scientific progress. everytime something is proven/disproven by use of the scientific method it acts as a checks and balances against older theories. common sense.
however, christians are still stuck with ideologies that pre-suppose that all secular people are out to get them and steal their children's minds and souls away with evil evolution/big bang filled textbooks.
secondly, we cannot presuppose a creator thus trying to presuppose how [it] created the world and for what purpose. presuppositions...is a relatively new phenomenon. honestly, i have not seen it work much until president bush presupposed that saddam had weapons of mass destruction...and you've seen where that has got us. nowhere.
this is a great topic, but presuppossitions will only hurt your case for/against whatever you are trying to argue. there is no 'if' in life. right?
third, there is more than two theories. i am not even going to attempt to name them all, much less even one more. i just want you to know that there are hundreds of other theories which are all equally as valid as the last.
finally, my thoughts: i too believe the world was created, but i do not know by whom or what or for what purpose. however, i do not hold it against people who see the christian or atheist view, or etc. i just dont want to hear about it! ...and that is why i am not going to express what i really think happened, because my ideas may change in twenty years. plus, if i dont want people forcing their ideas on me, and i tell you all my crazy ideas then i would be a hypocrite. tsk, tsk.
i simply commented on this post to let the author know that there is so much more involved.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 0:51:44 GMT -5
Big bang - In the beginning there was nothing, and then nothing exploded (Just think about that for a bit). That is what we are taught in school, you came from nothing, that expoloded. Is that somehow better than dirt? ;D Edit* You are bearing false witness on the big bang theory which doesn't say that there was orginally nothing. It says that the universe was previously in a very hot dense state kindof like a super black hole. If you can at least acknowledge gravity then you can follow this logical progression: Everything attracts everything else(gravity)>then everything is accleorationg towards the universe's center of mass(what gravity does)> eventually everything ends up in the middle of the universe>this amount of mass in one place allows gravity to overcome nuclear repulsatory forces and all that matter collapses into...get this...a very hot dense state. Now if I can't use the secular idea of gravity then just disregard this entire post... and reality.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 1:03:00 GMT -5
Rather maddening isnt it. That is what you do to us. We are telling you what the Bible says and that it is true, and you say we are using circular reasoning and cant do that. But yet you tell us, out of your literature that we dont belive, why your viewpoint is true. I thought I would level the playing field. You see the fallacy in your circular reasoning judgement. In cant be done. By that standard I could write a book...or pamphlet that says, "evolution is true as is everything in this pamphlet," and that would be good enough, but I doubt you would accept that. Do you have something better. As to not using secular sources...is a telescope secular, a spectrascope? That's all you need to witness that everything in the universe is moving away from the Earth thus indicating that we're in the middle of an explosion. To get food: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0412_060412_catfish.html
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 1:05:26 GMT -5
So, we are at agreement that a divine being exsits, now I will pose the question, which religion is right? If there is a divine being than one must hold the monopoly? The Bible says there is one God, God bless. It also says not to worship <i>other</i> gods...kinda supports the idea of other gods.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 1:55:56 GMT -5
So, we are at agreement that a divine being exsits, now I will pose the question, which religion is right? If there is a divine being than one must hold the monopoly? The Bible says there is one God, and the Bible is what you have used, as well as me, to prove this(creation). So I assume we are at agreement that the Bible is true. Now, the BIble is a relaible source of truth. Like pi=3 or unicors(at least in the popular KJV) I can't believe you said that! ;D How many avanues have you tried? Bhuddaism, Hinduism, Islam, Athieism?
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Tony Cruz
Full Member
Be on fire for God and people will come out to see you burn!
Posts: 107
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Post by Tony Cruz on Apr 23, 2006 6:14:20 GMT -5
In the beginning a Big God and then Bang He spoke the world into existance.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 14:55:24 GMT -5
In the beginning a Big God and then Bang He spoke the world into existance. Wow that's totally nonrelevant. Trying to get your post count up?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 14:59:12 GMT -5
It isnt our fault evolution is rediculous.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 17:37:29 GMT -5
It isnt our fault evolution is rediculous. And it's not my fault you can't adress any of the arguments I have made about your posts and that you try to distract the issue. Be a man and admit it if you're wrong or counter my point. Covering your ears and shouting "LA la la evolution is stupider than jupiter" is the response of a child. edit grahmer
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fattychunks
New Member
why did jesus go into the sky? cuz someone climbed Mt Olympus
Posts: 4
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Post by fattychunks on Apr 23, 2006 18:26:24 GMT -5
i disagree
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 24, 2006 19:26:10 GMT -5
In the beginning a Big God and then Bang He spoke the world into existance. Works for me. In the same sense, he made things in a 'day' before days even existed... Can't we say that God made things through evolution? I don't see why the thought of evolution is silly. There are even fossils that back it up...
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 25, 2006 0:32:06 GMT -5
In the beginning a Big God and then Bang He spoke the world into existance. Works for me. In the same sense, he made things in a 'day' before days even existed... Can't we say that God made things through evolution? I don't see why the thought of evolution is silly. There are even fossils that back it up... NO! IN the bible it says god's hand came out of a cloud and then he wiggled his fingers and magical sparkels came out and made everything perfectly perfect...except for the 99.99% of stuff he erased with the flood and had to redo. Anyways my point is Xians assume they know just how things happened even though A. They weren't there. and B. If the bible explained to our modern satisfaction it wouldn't have made any sense in it's time. I think there is a little too much presumtion and not enough humbleness in the Xian community.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 26, 2006 14:38:14 GMT -5
Your right it does say that, it also says that you worship "gods" that are not gods. They are idols that are deaf mute and dumb. They wont reprove your sin so you love them. I say with Elijah, where is your God? Is he on a journey? The God who answers by fire, he is the true God. One day God will answer your sin with hell fire, and I hope that you repent, if you dont repent and trust in Jesus then you will perish.
Well I was an atheist for some time, and since all those religions or non religions come from hell, I guess I have tried them all. But thank God that he answered my call and saved me. I am a testimony, like the blind man made whole, of the power of God's mighty hand.
Well I was under the impression tha the sun was in the middle of the galaxy, not the earth. Therefore everything would have to move away from the SUN.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 26, 2006 15:34:57 GMT -5
Well I was an atheist for some time, and since all those religions or non religions come from hell, I guess I have tried them all.
Uhhh, no, notsomuch. It means you've tried one religion and a nothing.
Well I was under the impression tha the sun was in the middle of the galaxy, not the earth. Therefore everything would have to move away from the SUN.
Wrong again on the second count. Things in our galaxy are moving towards the sun, ever so slowly. It's a gravity thing. What jobafunky was saying referred to the universe in its entirety. He kinda said that, too.... o.o'
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 23, 2006 6:31:32 GMT -5
...maybe the sun is hell.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 23, 2006 8:18:34 GMT -5
FSM explanation: "I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures." My explanation: First off, your premise is wrong, evan. You said: I don't agree. There could very well be a third option. And also, what about the thousands of other religion's creation stories? About the big bang: It is a very very very incomplete scientific theory that explains what the information we currently have about the universe. Also, I can clearly see that evan over there is trying to flop in evolution with the big bang. Well, evan, they are different theories, completely unrelated.
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Post by cervyy on Jun 26, 2006 0:02:02 GMT -5
I like that the idea that the universe formed from an old one being destroyed ... I kinda believe that. But that God orchestrated it. 7 days? PUH-lease. God is good enough that he can do better then just snapping his fingers and making it all appear. Where's the style? Where's the class? Where's the intrigue???
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