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Post by larryflint4prez on Jun 4, 2006 23:16:03 GMT -5
A1. An omnipotent entity (e.g. God) can manifest a perfect creation A2. An omnibenevolent entity is not cruel A3. An imperfect creation is unnecessarily cruel.
C1. An imperfect creation cannot be the product of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent entity.
So, is your god both cruel and omnipotent or is he both omnibenevolent and semi-potent?
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 5, 2006 6:19:30 GMT -5
semi-potent? haha.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 5, 2006 15:01:37 GMT -5
In the beginning God's creation was perfect, in every way. Your logic is useless.
It is mans fault that creation is the way it is today. Death came through sin, and sin came when adam and eve ate the fruit from the tree. They disobeyed, and now your a sinner. How can I say that you ask? Because all have sinned. Have you lied? Have you stolen? Have you lusted after a member of the opposite sex? If you answered yes to any of these than the last of your worries should be creating faulty logic to TRY and disprove God. You need to repent and trust Jesus.
Oh and you quote the satanic bible as your littles phrase under your avatar. Tell me my friend, how can you belive in satan without believing in God? That is rediculous.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 5, 2006 15:19:25 GMT -5
...if man's logic is useless, then its obvious that the men who wrote the bible were not divinely inspired. also, ask jesse...he says he is perfect.
evan, 'satanists' do not believe in satan.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 5, 2006 15:57:46 GMT -5
Then when deeming themselves satanists, they therefore become liars. But yes, they do. A quote from an agent, or recruiter, for the church of satan says of becoming a satanist, "it is a conscious asct of kind of thrwoing your lot in with the devil".
I am perfect as well.....In Christ. Jesus Christ makes me perfect. Something you would know nothing about until you confess and forsake your sin and trust in Jesus.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 5, 2006 16:38:11 GMT -5
EVIL IS GOOD? 1.) God is good all of the time. 2.) Everything that God creates is good. Amen? 3.) God created evil according to Isaiah 45:7. (look it up) 4.) Evil is good. - Reginald V. Finley, Sr.
Or here:
o)God is neither omni-potent or good Then why call him god? o)God is not omni-potent, but all good More likely, because evil exists o)God is omni-potent but not all good More likely, because evil exists. o)God is omni-potent and all good. Then where does evil come from?
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 5, 2006 16:39:09 GMT -5
yea, you perfectly execute the actions required to condemn us to hell!
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Post by larryflint4prez on Jun 6, 2006 0:02:45 GMT -5
On topic, God's creation was not perfect, or else Eve would not have given in to temptation ... nor would the serpent have even existed. The existence of the serpent represents unnecessary cruelty. Imperfection. So, do you worship an omnibenevolent but semi-potent god who couldn't even manifest a satisfying creation? Or do you worship an omnipotent but cruel god who created an imperfect world as a part of some morbid morality play?
Off topic, I am a modern satanist, Evanschaible, but the message under my avatar is not from _the Satanic Bible_ originally. It's from Aleister Crowley's _Liber al Legis_, otherwise known as the book of the law. I paraphrased because I don't like Crowley's phoney Elizabethan English. HSTN2983 is right, modern satanists do not believe Satan actually exists, it's just sort of a metaphor to tick off people like you. Nothing personal. Modern satanism is just secular humanism without the feel good altruistic B.S. Also, Blanche Barton's Church of Satan does not "recruit" members ... though it is sort of a no-pressure, come-as-you-are 'cult of personality'-based pyramid scheme. I am not a member. Very silly. Evan, you believe satanists become liars ... how, apropos. If I didn't know better, I'd think you knew me from somewhere else.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 6, 2006 10:44:27 GMT -5
God is good; man is not.
WITH God, man can be and is righteous, through the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
WITHOUT God, man's righteousness is as a filthy rag.
God created man perfect; man took that perfect creation and defiled it.
Hence, Jesus came and restored what man defiled.
Restoration, however, is personally attined through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 6, 2006 11:57:42 GMT -5
Biblethumper, how do you know that's true?
and going off of larry's post, why did god suddenly get the desire to create a universe? A perfect being can have no impulses.
Remember, when god created this universe, he sparked a war between good and evil. That's right, HE STARTED THE WAR BY CREATING. And, by knowing everything, he knew he would start a war, so therefore, he is not perfect. Perfect beings do not like to start wars >.>.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 6, 2006 13:34:10 GMT -5
It's true because Scripture says so.
Study Bibliology for all it's worth (history; inspiration; etc etc) and you'll note the truthfulness of the statement also.
This is why I believe what I believe...because the Scripture has been proven truthful time and time again.
Hence, i trust that book more than my own life.
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Post by larryflint4prez on Jun 6, 2006 15:06:20 GMT -5
God is good; man is not. WITH God, man can be and is righteous, through the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. WITHOUT God, man's righteousness is as a filthy rag. God created man perfect; man took that perfect creation and defiled it. Hence, Jesus came and restored what man defiled. Restoration, however, is personally attined through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. Wow, that's not an answer ... that is a nonsequitur. A red herring. Again, explain the apparent incongruity of a supposedly omnipotent and omnibenevolent god, who created an imperfect world and punishes its inhabitants for his failings as their creator. Why create imperfect humans then punish them for the imperfections that you wrought? Why restore perfection only to a select few when the very imperfection which prevents righteousness is God's fault and God's fault alone? Either you worship a semi-potent god or a cruel god, which do you think it is? Or would you rather stick your fingers in your ears and whistle 'Dixie'?
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 6, 2006 15:27:41 GMT -5
...any man who claims perfection is a loon.
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Post by newsong on Jun 6, 2006 15:36:11 GMT -5
For all here who want to know if God is real read this book its written for those who ask all the old questions as here. It is a 17th Century Classic and quite a big book in length. It will take you some time to read it and chew on it. I am sure when you read it you will have a different opinion as to wether God exists or not and who he truly is. All the whys etc etc will I am sure be answered as it was written for those who question wether God exists or not. I would say all the questions you can ever ask will be answered perfectly or most of them. Enough to leave you no doubt about who God is and the fact he exists. Why there is evil etc etc. and the fact that this does not make him any less God and any less Holy and any less a God of Love.
Stephen Charnock - The Existence and Attributes of God.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 6, 2006 15:39:41 GMT -5
i dont believe in books.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 6, 2006 19:32:15 GMT -5
How do know that it isnt true?
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 7, 2006 14:56:54 GMT -5
Another Syllogism:
Major Premise: Your cannot get something from nothing. Minor Premise: Evolution claims something came from nothing. Conclusion: Evolution is false.
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Post by larryflint4prez on Jun 7, 2006 17:39:41 GMT -5
Another Syllogism: Major Premise: Your cannot get something from nothing. Minor Premise: Evolution claims something came from nothing. Conclusion: Evolution is false. Logic 101. You have constructed a logical arguement, but unfortunately it is also a false arguement because its minor premise is not true. Informally, you have created a straw man arguement, because you are attacking a position that no evolutionary biologist holds. Furthermore, you are using this false arguement to change the subject because you cannot refute my original arguement claiming god must be either cruel or semi-potent. Care to try again?
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 7, 2006 20:06:09 GMT -5
Pwnd ^^
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 8, 2006 7:11:48 GMT -5
yikes.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 8, 2006 15:56:20 GMT -5
The thing is, your "logical" argument was faulty, which gained the same vulgar comeback as every other statement made by a Christian on this board.
If no evolutionary biologist hold to a theory that claims something came from nothing, then what exactly do they hold to? Where did space, matter, the sun, the galaxies, etc., come from? They say the big bang, or something else...Where did that come from?
You claim to be informed when it comes to proper logic? Okay...
1) Gen. 1:31, "and God saw everything that He had made, and behold it was very good..." Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as b one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..."
Notice, by ONE MAN sin entered into the world. God created everything perfect, and since man was created perfect, in God's image, we to had free will. IT IS MANS FAULT that creation fell and is now imperfect. Hence, your logic is faulty.
2) If evolution claims that something came from something ... Then what is that something evolution claims it came from? Where did space come from? Where did matter come from? Please tell me, I look forward to the answer.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 8, 2006 16:56:54 GMT -5
Evolution is not an answer for creation and do not think that it is. It merely explains how humans got there. It does not explain how the world got there.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 8, 2006 18:16:26 GMT -5
It does not explain how humans got here. Show me one iota of fact that proves that man came from apes.
Even if you could, where did the very first life form come from? Where did your answer to that question come from? You paint yourself into a corner.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 8, 2006 19:39:42 GMT -5
95% of human DNA is similar to primate DNA.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 8, 2006 19:56:39 GMT -5
The bi-plane looks similar to the 747, that doesnt mean it evolved. It just means there was a common designer.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 8, 2006 20:03:30 GMT -5
Is a biplane made up of amino acids? Chains of DNA molecules containing nucleotides? That's right, I didn't think so.
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Post by larryflint4prez on Jun 8, 2006 23:34:05 GMT -5
The thing is, your "logical" argument was faulty, ... 1) Gen. 1:31, "and God saw everything that He had made, and behold it was very good..." Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as b one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..." Notice, by ONE MAN sin entered into the world. God created everything perfect, and since man was created perfect, in God's image, we to had free will. IT IS MANS FAULT that creation fell and is now imperfect. Hence, your logic is faulty. Well, first of all, you are incorrectly identifying your own arguement against me. By invoking this verse from Genesis, you are attacking the truth of my premises ... not the soundness of my arguement. Second, you have not actually demonstrated that my premises are false. Let me explain for the slow kids in class. The first two premises of my arguement are certainly true: By definition, if an entity cannot produce a perfect creation, then that entity is not omnipotent. Similarly, by definition, if an entity is cruel, then that entity is not omnibenevolent. Someone might question the semantics of my third premise (i.e. what exactly did I mean by an 'imperfect creation' or 'unnecessarily cruel'?), but I believe you have accepted the truth of my third premise in the context of the biblical creation myth. Notice you did appear to question my three explicitly stated premises. You also did not attack the soundness of my arguement. To refute the soundness of my arguement, you would have to demonstrate that I had "affirmed the consequent" or "denied the antecedent". You would have needed to demonstrate that I broke the rules of formal arguement structure or that I had reached some conclusion which did not follow from my premises. You did not do any of this. Instead, what you have done is question the truth of a fourth premise, which I had implied without explicitly stating ... namely that god's creation (i.e. the world we live in) is imperfect. Unfortunately, you are wrong ... this implied fourth premise is in fact true. According to Genesis, who created Adam and Eve? Who created the serpent that tempted them? God did. The very fact that the serpent would tempt Adam and Eve to evil ... the very fact that Adam and Eve could be tempted ... demonstrate that the biblical creation was imperfect. Sure, the bible blames Eve for the fall from grace, but the whole deal is really god's fault for creating human beings that could be tempted into sin. Thus, all my premises are true ... my arguement is sound ... my conclusions are true ... and therefore you worship a god who is either semi-potent or cruel.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 9, 2006 10:13:57 GMT -5
Damn, he's good. Both at writing and arguing.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 10, 2006 9:59:48 GMT -5
this is why i hate science. haha. i do not need religion or science to live a comfortable life.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 10, 2006 18:26:46 GMT -5
Exactly, I am not interested in speculation, but truth. You argument may be sound, but soundness does not in any way consitute truth.
God did indeed create everything perfect, but man disobeyed and caused creation to fall.
I felt no need to be futile with arguments that will only be thrown away by you as myth. But since you bring it up, and i assume you will be open to what I have to say, I will address, very quickly, why your logic is fualty when applied to the truth.
Lets quickly review what exactly you stated in your opening post:
Your first two premises are indeed true, as is your third. However, your qrgument loses all weight and becomes absurd because God did indeed create everything perfect. Again, man disobeyed and rebelled against God and consequently God punsihed man for the rebellion. It was mans fault, not God's.
Granted, your logic is sound if the truth is neglected. But the truth is, your argument is false as God's creation was perfect, man screwed it up.
So, your conclusion may be right in the context of your fictional world, but in the real world, where God created everything perfect, and man rebelled and broke His command, your conlusion has no bearing whatsoever in anything pertaning to the Bible or the one true God.
Well, again I repeat myself. Free will is one aspect of perfection. satan and all demons and angels have free will just as man does. satan rebelled and wanted "to exalt himself above God" so God cast Him from His presence. So consequently satan went and tempted man because misery loves company. Man has free will as well, so when adam and eve ate the fruit and broke God' only command at the time, they were simpy exercising their free will. God does not want robots to worship Him because they have to. He want you to choose to worship Him.
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