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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 5:22:49 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 22, 2006 5:22:49 GMT -5
when i see a preacher on his soapbox i see several things. i see a man raising himself above others. i see a man shouting to be heard because he thinks his words are meaningless at a normal voice level. i see condescension and insults driving their way through men's hearts, not guilt, shame or god. i see a man who has put himself on a pedastul, thus turning himself into an idol worthy enough to be listened to, or even worshipped. in fact, when i look staright through this man of god i do not see a man. i see an empty shell with no heart, mind or soul.
what do you see?
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 8:57:56 GMT -5
Post by Grant on Jun 22, 2006 8:57:56 GMT -5
I used to see just what you see.
But now I see a person making a fool of themselves for the sake of the King. The preacher puts himself in a place others can see him and hear his voice, making sure that the offensive message that is sure to make many enemies with him is heard loud and clear. Puting a natural spotlight on him as if to say "I don't care who hates me or laughs at me for what I do but I will do it anyway for the love of GOD!"
What do you think of politicians standing behind a podeum with amplification? What about band members on a stage with twice the amplification? What about Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, John Lennon, and anyone else you might have liked the message to?? They were simply put in a place to make themselves heard... perhaps some people are proud when doing it, yes. But don't let the soapbox dictate the individual's character. Listen to the message and look at the their heart and eyes for sincerity.
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 10:37:22 GMT -5
Post by robdog on Jun 22, 2006 10:37:22 GMT -5
when i see a preacher on his soapbox i see several things. i see a man raising himself above others. i see a man shouting to be heard because he thinks his words are meaningless at a normal voice level. i see condescension and insults driving their way through men's hearts, not guilt, shame or god. i see a man who has put himself on a pedastul, thus turning himself into an idol worthy enough to be listened to, or even worshipped. in fact, when i look staright through this man of god i do not see a man. i see an empty shell with no heart, mind or soul. what do you see? What do you think people saw when the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, in addition to others, traveled the ancient world proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ?
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 11:30:31 GMT -5
Post by cervyy on Jun 22, 2006 11:30:31 GMT -5
Oh, don't even compare yourselves to the apostles. That's pirdeful AND disgraceful. They were Christians, you are not.
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 11:42:32 GMT -5
Post by Jules on Jun 22, 2006 11:42:32 GMT -5
Grant, I agree completely with your post. The reason unbelievers see what they see is because their persepctive is dictated by the message. They hate the message to repent, as Jesus said they would. So they judge and ridicule the speaker, also as Jesus said they would.
HST: Offense is taken, not given. If you are offended by the gospel being preached, don't blame the messenger. The truth hurts, bud. Examine your heart and ask yourself WHY it hurts. Be brave enough to do that, and not prideful. You always say preachers are the prideful ones, but it is the pride of sinners that keeps them from repenting, always. They don't want to bow to the King, agree with Him about their sin, or surrender their will to His will. They are selfish and want what they want. Hence, pride.
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 11:44:18 GMT -5
Post by robdog on Jun 22, 2006 11:44:18 GMT -5
Oh, don't even compare yourselves to the apostles. That's pirdeful AND disgraceful. They were Christians, you are not. I'm sorry, why would you say I'm not a Christian?
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 14:37:40 GMT -5
Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 22, 2006 14:37:40 GMT -5
A 2 year old could predict that >.>
Hmm, they hate our dogma/message/hypocracy....
I PROPHESIZE THEY WILL HATE THE MESSAGE TO REPENT!!!!!!!!
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 16:25:19 GMT -5
Post by Grant on Jun 22, 2006 16:25:19 GMT -5
PROPHESIZE?
(I know what you meant, just thought I'd do the expected and point it out, LOL)
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 16:48:45 GMT -5
Post by cervyy on Jun 22, 2006 16:48:45 GMT -5
People hightened by soapboxes, or ledges or anything they need to get a boost, are just trying to overcompensate for lacking something else .... *sigh*, how sad.
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 16:55:10 GMT -5
Post by Grant on Jun 22, 2006 16:55:10 GMT -5
so I suppose you ridicule Gandhi, King, Leonnon and the rest at the same time since they've all gotten up on stages to speak to crowds about personal beliefs and correcting a certain class of people 'out of the goodness of their own heart'?
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 17:29:43 GMT -5
Post by cervyy on Jun 22, 2006 17:29:43 GMT -5
oh, but you're not doing it out of the goodness of your heart, you're doing because a book told you to.
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 17:34:32 GMT -5
Post by robdog on Jun 22, 2006 17:34:32 GMT -5
oh, but you're not doing it out of the goodness of your heart, you're doing because a book told you to. If God wrote it, I'll quote it... Are you going to answer my question DJ?
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soapbox
Jun 22, 2006 22:53:35 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 22, 2006 22:53:35 GMT -5
grant, nice try, but hardly comparable. also, what is it with turning complaints into compliments. a fool is bad, not good. so, please, for the sake of all that is english...
oi.
i do admit they make fools of themselves, and they are not hated for the message. they are hated for disturbing the peace, invading private proprty, and refusing to obey the laws of courtesy and decency.
...if i want to convert to christianity i will go to church, or open a bible. we go to bars because we want to socialize and drink, and anything else is considered an annoyance...it isn't because you are a christian, and we're devils that hate to hear the word, "jesus."
you all have very odd perception of how the world works, and treats you. this is what i like to call a persecution complex. please refer to the older post with the same title.
nobody hates christians, except extremists on the opposite spectrum, like islamic fundamentalists for example. no 'sane' person wants wishes harm upon christians because of their beliefs, but yes, we do want you to go away when you won't leave us alone.
so, tell me, would you leave if i asked you to...or would you harrass me?
after all, it is against the law to harrass someone--and you do not even have to touch them.
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Jun 22, 2006 22:54:41 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 22, 2006 22:54:41 GMT -5
what ever happened to the meaning of, "no?"
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Jun 22, 2006 23:05:50 GMT -5
Post by cervyy on Jun 22, 2006 23:05:50 GMT -5
Sorry, mein Hund Freund. I didn't see your earlier post in which you asked me the question.
You willing side yourself with OA and, maybe OA preach yourself? Well, if if not the second one, any who believe the message OA preachers preach (which has as I have seen it, hate loosely disguised as love) cannot be a Christian.
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soapbox
Jun 23, 2006 5:46:39 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 23, 2006 5:46:39 GMT -5
i will second that.
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Jun 23, 2006 11:14:48 GMT -5
Post by robdog on Jun 23, 2006 11:14:48 GMT -5
Sorry, mein Hund Freund. I didn't see your earlier post in which you asked me the question. You willing side yourself with OA and, maybe OA preach yourself? Well, if if not the second one, any who believe the message OA preachers preach (which has as I have seen it, hate loosely disguised as love) cannot be a Christian. The bible says to Jesus commands his believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature...how would you reccomend Christians go about this???
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Jun 23, 2006 11:30:46 GMT -5
Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 23, 2006 11:30:46 GMT -5
I answer with:
Happy murders, Rob.
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Jun 23, 2006 11:56:08 GMT -5
Post by robdog on Jun 23, 2006 11:56:08 GMT -5
I answer with: Happy murders, Rob. Not sure I'm following...extrapolate please.
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soapbox
Jun 23, 2006 12:11:11 GMT -5
Post by Jules on Jun 23, 2006 12:11:11 GMT -5
to the unbelievers on here...no one is forcing you to remain on these boards, reading the words of scripture and the Name of Christ. No one is forcing it down your throats. yet you condemn us? No one forces anyone to go to church. No one forces you to read your Bible, stand and listen to an open air preacher, etc. If it offends you to the point of getting so mad, then just leave.
Why do you stay and feel compelled to argue your point? To defend your beliefs, even if it means getting frustrated? Probably for the same reason we do it. Because we feel SO strongly about our convictions that we would risk ridicule, frustration, persecution, etc. So maybe we aren't that different. The difference would be that the love of Christ (us for him, him for us, us for you, him for you) compels us to preach.
What compels you to stay and take it?
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soapbox
Jun 23, 2006 13:05:01 GMT -5
Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 23, 2006 13:05:01 GMT -5
No, you condemn us.
Im on the offensive, right now.
To make you think.
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soapbox
Jun 23, 2006 13:05:19 GMT -5
Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 23, 2006 13:05:19 GMT -5
I thought you understood the gospel?
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soapbox
Jun 23, 2006 13:38:53 GMT -5
Post by Grant on Jun 23, 2006 13:38:53 GMT -5
That's like my 6 yr old testing my knowledge and perspective on life. Yet there's little I can do for him to come to the realization that I've been his age and know his point of view all too well since I was in his same shoes once. All I can do is patiently explain and continue until he understands. Though the big difference is his attitude isn't out to ridicule or mock but a true desire to learn truth.
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Jun 23, 2006 14:40:05 GMT -5
Post by Jules on Jun 23, 2006 14:40:05 GMT -5
I agree Grant. We've all been where the unbelievers are...perhaps not specific circumstances, but we've been apart from God, in sin, etc. So we know from which we speak. But we also know what we have seen and heard, learned and believed, and canot help but speak of it, as Peter and John couldn't in Acts.
To make us doubt perhaps is the reason they stay. Why do they want us to stop believing? Why do they want to stop the feeling of being condemned? If we were of a mind to CONDEMN them, we wouldn't even BOTHER giving them the truth, thereby sealing their fate to hell in a sense. We don't want to see them condemend, which is why we speak. I wish they could understand that. It is so logical, and as you said. If we didn't care, we'd say nothing at all. And if they weren't somehow concerned, they wouldn't still be here.
Praise God for opening eyes and hearts.
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Jun 23, 2006 18:50:08 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 23, 2006 18:50:08 GMT -5
grant, so we are six year olds now?
jules, i am concerned that my world, and life, in america is being destroyed by christians. i am not concerned about my soul, nor am i here because i have an interest in what you have to say. i am learning what you believe so that i can better defend myself against people like you, and warn people against you.
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Jun 24, 2006 11:27:11 GMT -5
Post by Jules on Jun 24, 2006 11:27:11 GMT -5
HSTN ( I don't know your first name, so my apologies) I agree that one of the reasons that America is and will be destroyed is a result of these "so called" Christians. I don't know if they are all truly believers, because Jesus made it so clear that if they were truly his disciples they would bear fruit. I hate hypocrisy as much as you do.
The Christians on this board are not your enemy, nor should you feel you have to defend yourself against us. But, you should question everything we say, and compare it to scripture. For the sake of finding truth though, not for the sake of debate and proving right/wrong. You have knowledge of scripture, and when you do use it, use it in the spirit of gaining truth and knowledge. None of us are perfect here, or scholars of the Bible. We are disciples of Christ, srtiving to live holy lives in an unholy world. We get frustrated with the socalled church in America - it is lukewarm, hypocritical, does not evangelize, condemns the world, offers no hope to the sinner, waters down the gospel in order to satisfy people, are lovers of money, etc. etc. You've seen this to be true. We abhor this as does the Lord.
I am concerned as well that God will bring judgment on America unless it repents. But ther eis the thing: repentance always starts individually. How can I rail against the world and it's sin unless I myself have a pure heart? If I am not clean and righteous before God, who am I to condemn or judge the world?
The BIble says that with what measure you judge others you yourself will be judge. Remove the plank from your own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else's eyes.
WHat do these verses mean? Not that all judgment is wrong, but that it must begin with personal sin. Personal repentance. Once I have personally repented of my own sin, then I am able to see clearly as to what the sin (if any) of others is.
Have you ever been so angry at someone that you can't think striaght? You are so emotional, etc that you make hasty decisions, etc. Crimes of passion begin this way, and there are so many instances in life that follow suit. We must be of sound mind before we see clearly.
We must have a pure heart, washed hands, before we can judge or determine sin in the world. That doesn't just apply to you, it applies to me, and everyone else.
I would suggest (humbly and with much love) that you set aside your anger, concerns, etc that are all wrapped up in others, what they do, how they act, etc and pull back and focus on yourself, and you before God. What do you see when that happens?
Because it really comes down to that. I can't stand before God one day and blame my sin and ignorance on others and what they said or did to me. I was taught in error for years growing up in church. Do you think I was angry? You better believe it. But God has a way of working all things out for the good of those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
Lay aside the anger, forget about us, the world, the hypocrisy, etc and just sit before the Lord and be real. Be honest. And seek him.
Because one day, you will be accountable for yourself. And you alone. It won't matter how screwed up you got during your childhood, etc. God will judge those who wronged you, misled you, etc. He judges each man. Vengeance is His he tells us. So just begin with personal sin, personal repentance. For your own sake, not for any other reason.
I'll be praying for you, friend.
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soapbox
Jun 24, 2006 20:24:28 GMT -5
Post by Grant on Jun 24, 2006 20:24:28 GMT -5
Jules, that was beautifully said and hit the nail on the button. I appreciate you and your insight in bringing this down to earth and to the individual level in such a clear manner. I thank GOD for you. GOD be glorified!
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soapbox
Jun 25, 2006 1:37:09 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 25, 2006 1:37:09 GMT -5
i disagree. christians need to be scrutinized carefully, and exposed when wrong. i cannot let people like you wander this earth bringing others down with you. i can only be accountable for myself if and only if i lived my life doing what i believe to be right. in other words, if i let the hypocrites and bastards of this world have their say/way, then i can faithfully say that i am damned.
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soapbox
Jun 25, 2006 13:27:51 GMT -5
Post by Jules on Jun 25, 2006 13:27:51 GMT -5
HSTN, you missed my point. While I agree that hypocrites, liars, etc should be called to account (that is, told they are in sin, etc. as the Old Testaments prophets did) WE MUST BE OURSELVES free from sin before we can do this. How can I point out sin in your life if tehre is unconfessed sin in my own? If I continue in sin how can I judge another?
So while the unbelievers rightfully complain that hypocritcal Christians should not judge them, they should however receive the truth from those who are not walking in sin. Those who are above reproach. They are few and far between but they do exist!
Instead of spending your time telling those who you think are in sin and the like their condition, why don't you give some thought to your own condition? Don't condemn yourself at the same time you are condemning them. For teh same applies to you as it does to us: with what measure you judge, you yourself will be judged.
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soapbox
Jun 25, 2006 19:55:00 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 25, 2006 19:55:00 GMT -5
they do not exist, and i have examined myself, jules. this is why i throw pebbles at street preachers. i do not sin according to my own values. this claim is no more ridiculous than christians claiming to be perfect.
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