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Post by joem on Feb 25, 2008 11:29:38 GMT -5
This is a popular one among atheist and agnostics. According to most people's theology, He can do both, which (like most people's theology) is self-contradicting and philosophically impossible. What is your response?
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 11:42:41 GMT -5
This is a popular one among atheist and agnostics. According to most people's theology, He can do both, which (like most people's theology) is self-contradicting and philosophically impossible. What is your response? Grace and Peace, Joe My answer is no, becuase there is nothing bigger than He is!
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Post by joem on Feb 25, 2008 12:59:53 GMT -5
The routine goes something like this;
No? You mean that God is not capable of creating such a rock? Obviously God is not all powerful then. So He can't do anything He wants and His creativity has its limits. I thought God could do anything He set His mind to?
or
Yes? You mean that God can't handle something He created Himself? He is not all powerful then. So He can't do anything He wants and His power has its limits. I thought God could do anything He set His mind to?
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 13:16:17 GMT -5
The routine goes something like this; No? You mean that God is not capable of creating such a rock? Obviously God is not all powerful then. So He can't do anything He wants and His creativity has its limits. I thought God could do anything He set His mind to? or Yes? You mean that God can't handle something He created Himself? He is not all powerful then. So He can't do anything He wants and His power has its limits. I thought God could do anything He set His mind to? It's just a trap. They have a conscience, don't let them fool you. God cannot create something bigger than himself because He is bigger than anything. He can't lift anything bigger than himself because He is bigger than anything. He cannot think higher than himself because their is nothing higher. He cannot create anything better because their is nothing better than what He has created and so on.......
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Post by joem on Feb 25, 2008 13:21:01 GMT -5
Chew on it awhile. There are ways to answer the question that use it as a spring board to offer evidence for both the existence and supremacy of God. I will give my answer after others have had an opportunity to respond.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 25, 2008 14:09:06 GMT -5
I would start by saying that their definition of omnipotents is disfigured because it doesn't include doing things that are impossible nor does it include the possibility of failure..
In Christ Matt
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Post by tbxi on Feb 25, 2008 16:51:43 GMT -5
The question itself attempts to impose a contradiction on God. It is an absurd and unfair question, and the person who insists on it being resolved so that he can believe in God is an evil and stupid one. It is like asking God to make 1+1=3 or to create a square circle, or to be A and not A at the same time in the same sense. Omnipotence doesn't include the ability to perform logical contradictions - God is able to, and does control whatever He creates, and He does not create square circles, mathematical contradictions, or paradoxical rocks, because they cannot exist in concept or in reality. I'd like to see what your answer is, joem.
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 25, 2008 19:07:08 GMT -5
The law of non-contridiction would say that this is impossible. This is a paradoxical question within the limits of naturalistic or empirical senses. But, God is super-natural and operates outside of our natural order controlling the same.
I would say that for God it is not a can't issue in either case, it is a won't issue.
God is not a pony show for puny humans, His hand goes across the universe. He is all powerful and would be able to make a huge rock say the size of the universe, He would then be able to pick up that rock and crush you with the same.
Jesus is the rock and either you will be broken by Him or crushed by Him.
Lastly, I would attempt to turn the table on him by asking if he believes in logic? A: yes Where does logic come from? A: myself How can you believe in something you don't see? A: everyone has it. How do you know that? The worldview colors thier glasses and they will not believe God because they don't want to believe God.
Great question to get us thinking about the primary reason Christians exist; to share their faith!
BTW, great ribs thanks so much. ;D
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Post by joem on Feb 25, 2008 20:54:54 GMT -5
This is an argument usually posed by hecklers and I respond something like this;
Being that God created everything out of nothing, He could not create something beyond what He is capable dealing with. If God created everything out of nothing, nothing can be added to His creation that did not originate with Him. Information can be lost, distorted, and otherwise affected by other parts of His creation, but all these things would still be subservient to God. In other words, the sum of all created things are still incapable of being beyond the Creators ability to deal with them. Just as there could never be a rock so big that God couldn't pick it up, there is not a person that is beyond being judged by God. Do you think that you are beyond being judged by God?
I like to use reasoning that brings the argument full circle and ultimately uses the contention against the one who posed the question. I am sure there are better answers, but this works for me.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 26, 2008 9:01:13 GMT -5
Great response Joe, I will try to commit that to my mind as we run into that alot.
Here is another response from the unbelievers:
Joe, that argument you just posed is circular reasoning therefore it is not valid.
A: All reasoning is circular, it starts with a point goes through a system of reasonings and then (posted later I had to go) returns to the same point of reason or premise as you rightly state later Joe. Excellent.
Brian what you say is true and Christians will believe that but most unbelievers will just scoff at what you and I say if all we state is because God.....
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Post by joem on Feb 26, 2008 9:30:44 GMT -5
Great response Joe, I will try to commit that to my mind as we run into that alot. Here is another response from the unbelievers: Joe, that argument you just posed is circular reasoning therefore it is not valid. Circular reasoning begins with a premise and ends with a premise after bypassing the question, it is a full 360, or circle around the contention. What I have done is provide an answer to your basic premise which has brought the contention 180 degrees, basically a U turn of your actual premise. In other words its YOUR turn to come up with a better contention if you expect me to take your points seriously. Grace and Peace, Joe edit; This is an answer that usually makes people think twice before they pose another silly question. The sarcasm is intentional in this case. Some times people are offended with the use of sarcasm, though in many cases a sarcastic answer is well received by both the audience and the heckler.
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Post by celebrity on Feb 26, 2008 15:51:45 GMT -5
Here is my answer in REAL TIME.
GOD CREATED THE EARTH. (A BIG ROCK) GOD CREATED IT IN A GRAVITYLESS ENVIRONMENT.
GOD is smart.... God can do anything...
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Post by celebrity on Feb 26, 2008 15:52:16 GMT -5
AMEN!!!
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Feb 26, 2008 18:56:56 GMT -5
I usually answer yes. Firguratively speaking, YOU are that rock. God is not going to push your or pull you or lift you into following Christ. YOU have got to make that decision. ;-)
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 26, 2008 19:10:32 GMT -5
I usually answer yes. Firguratively speaking, YOU are that rock. God is not going to push your or pull you or lift you into following Christ. YOU have got to make that decision. ;-) That's a great way of putting it brother!!! In Christ Matt
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Post by celebrity on Mar 3, 2008 17:26:54 GMT -5
This reminds me of the parable of not casting perils before swine.
This seems like one of those mystical answers or clever answers no one is likely to respect because it has nothing to with the answer to the question.
But then again, I am one of the addicts that loves my answer more. Unfortunately, I am one of the jerks you are likely to run into. Sorry,I am a dime a dozen.
But your answer avoids the opposite response that could God have created me to large a rock to handle. If no to this than you side stepped HUMAN PRIDE. God almost has to destroy a prideful man to get him to change.
i SHOULD KNOW.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Mar 21, 2008 19:51:21 GMT -5
Yay for George Carlin for making this question so popular. I was just listening to my iTunes and this came on.
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Post by johnlaun on Dec 1, 2008 11:14:52 GMT -5
that question is the same as asking the question can God make himself non existant? since their is "no other god beside HIM", THE QUESTION IS NOT A VALID QUESTION.
SINCE THE BIBLE IS OUR STARTING PRE SUP WE ANSWER FROM REVELATION!
JOHN LAUN
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Post by johnlaun on Dec 1, 2008 11:28:19 GMT -5
that question is the same as asking the question can God make himself non existant? since their is "no other god beside HIM", THE QUESTION IS NOT A VALID QUESTION.
SINCE THE BIBLE IS OUR STARTING PRE SUP WE ANSWER FROM REVELATION! THE QUESTION ALSO VIOLATES THE LAW OF NON CONTRADICTION . NAMELY, THEY WANT GOD TO BE AND NOT TO BE AT THE SAME TIME. GOD WILL NOT VIOLATE THE LAWS OF LOGIC THAT ARE HIS CREATION. JOHN LAUN
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Post by rescuedbymary06 on Dec 22, 2008 19:11:45 GMT -5
YOU are the rock that God has created that He cannot lift!
Unless you're WILLING to be lifted out of the pit of sin.
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Post by Brother. Ross on Dec 23, 2008 19:50:18 GMT -5
There are a lot of huge heavy rocks in the chest of sinners that he seemingly cant' lift, so it appears he can. P.S but the devil gets the credit for the concrete slab!
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Post by biblegeek on Dec 29, 2008 18:47:03 GMT -5
I like Bro. Jesse's response that I heard him say at a college campus.... "That's an intrinsic contradiction...." He left it like that and the sinner is left scratching his head. I love it...
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Post by Brother. Ross on Dec 30, 2008 23:44:57 GMT -5
YOU are the rock that God has created that He cannot lift! Unless you're WILLING to be lifted out of the pit of sin. True, but not by Mary!
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Post by epistemaniac on Jan 6, 2011 16:59:49 GMT -5
here is the best answer I have come across.... its from "A Christian Thinktank":
"About the question "Can God make a rock so big he cannot pick it up?" as a problem for a view of God as omnipotent...
Couple of points here...
First, Omnipotence has historically been understood as the ability to perform any task consistent with His character and essence. (At least that's the classical definition/understanding of it). This would exclude 'things' like...
Re his character:
It is impossible for God to lie (He actually is the one who told us this in the scriptures). It is impossible for God to break an promise. It is impossible for God to deny his existence and character (tantamount to lying, of course).
Re his essence:
It is impossible for him to split into two essences (a la cell division). It is impossible for him to will himself out of existence.
(These above statements are beyond the scope of this email.)
Secondly, there are some things that we can build pseudo-sentences about, that actually don't end up being 'tasks'...some can be quite comical...
"Can God make this question into a declarative sentence?" "Can God change the subject of this sentence to 'jello'?" "Can God make this sentence so long that he cannot read it?" "Can God make the slithy toves gyre and gimble in the wabe?" (for any fellow Alice-in-Wonderland-Enthusiasts out there!)
These 'sentences' seem odd to us, for they look like regular sentences, but they have what philosophers of language call 'ungrammaticality' (cf.Language and Reality--An Introduction to the Philosophy of Language, by Michael Devitt & Kim Sterelny, MIT Press, pps.89-92).
Then there is another class of sentences in which grammaticality is present, but there are improper referents and relations, similar to the linguists' favorite: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously". These sentences (and any questions based upon them like "Do colorless green ideas sleep furiously?") are said to have no truth value (neither true nor false)--they just don't have any meaning to BE true or false.
It is into this category that the following sentences/questions fit:
God can make a square circle. (and the Q-version of it: Can God make a square circle?) God can make colorless green ideas sleep furiously. God can make a rock so big it turns into a peach. God can make a rock so invisible that it casts a shadow 2 parsecs long!
It is in this category that the famous "God can make a rock so big he cannot lift it" fits. As a 'sentence' it actually has no meaning, and hence is neither true nor false."
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Post by veritas77 on Jan 27, 2011 12:21:38 GMT -5
Same concept as- God creating TIME.
Did God create Time/ aka the future... and not know ALL that is within (future/errrrr, TIME)??
God IS the I AM. Eternal.
He created- TIME, Therefore "our future" is fully known but God who created this dimension for humanity.
The bible talks about time no more, aka ETERNITY when the dispensations of scripture are finally fulfilled.
Gods creation/TIME/a mere facility for humanities existence, errrrr trial period call it, is not ABOVE- OUTSIDE- the comprehension of The Triune Deity, Godhead of scripture.
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