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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 25, 2008 14:54:44 GMT -5
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Post by HDmatt on Jun 30, 2008 18:53:45 GMT -5
what is up with faith? How does that filter into a free will individual? Did abraham need it? Is it faith that chooses right? Did we choose or did the Holy Spirit give it too us to choose right? Hope I asked that correctly.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 30, 2008 18:59:46 GMT -5
Faith is the heart’s embrace and obedience to revealed truth (Lk. 24:25; Acts 8:37; 15:9; 26:18; Rom. 6:17; 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:22).
Unbelief is the hearts rejection of light (Jn. 3:19; Rom 1:18).
So faith is when a sinner, by free will and under the influence of the Holy Spirit, embraces the truth of God with his heart.
Belief or unbelief is a choice. That is why Jesus commanded sinners to "repent and believe". That is why Jesus marveled at their unbelief. And that is why God punishes their unbelief. Because belief and unbelief is a choice of the heart.
"And saying, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark. 1:15
"And he marveled because of their unbelief." Mark 6:6
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Post by pete777 on Jul 1, 2008 19:37:38 GMT -5
WHAT IS BIBLICAL FAITH?
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. KJV
Note: We see here that faith gives us understanding! The understanding is in relation to the creative power of God, (“…worlds =framed=word of God” = creative power…)! So in essence faith gives us a knowledge of God’s will (understanding) which leads to receiving His creative power to be obedient to the known requirements of His will! Therefore, faith accesses God’s power, and God only gives His power if we are willing to fulfill a known requirement (understanding). Please note, in Psalms 111:10 understanding is linked to commandment keeping!
Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. KJV
God’s will for man is obedience to MORAL LAW, as expressed in the Ten Commandments! If we learn a new requirement for our sanctification, then we need God’s power to “COME UP” to that new standard we have just been enlightened to (walking in the light). When we ask for His power to obey, and then are able to keep the requirement with His gift of power (grace) we are DOING BIBLICAL WORKS (James 2:20-24)! This is how we are saved! By faith receiving God’s grace (power) to be obedient to MORAL LAW! This is Biblical works, without which you are deceived!
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. KJV
NOTE: Please read carefully the following segment! “ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE…” All we need to do is ask what does the Bible define grace as? What is it? And how do we get it?
GRACE: 1) Acts 4:33 = grace is power 2) Eph 3:7 = grace is power 3) 2 Cor 12:9 grace is power
SO WHAT IS GRACE? The Bible makes clear it is power! When we believe, we are having faith, for in the Greek believe and faith are the same word! So look at this sequence of faith (belief) and power in one of the most important texts in the Bible!
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: KJV
NOTE: So we see that “BELIEVE ON HIS NAME (character)” = to receive what? “TO THEM GAVE HE POWER…” Now what does this power do? It helps them BECOME sons of God! So this gospel out there that says just believe, is an ABOMINATION to the Word of God! We must believe and receive POWER and with that power become sons of God! So where does the power of grace come from?
Galatians 4:5-6 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. KJV
NOTE: This is a very critical point!! Please pay attention! To redeem is to remove a person from “UNDER THE LAW…” Being under the law means to be condemned, to be guilty (Rom 3:19), it means to be breaking the principles of the law, and thereby found guilty as a transgressor! To be under something is to be crushed by it! If you are crushed by the guilt of your sin, you are not redeemed from the law! It is when your conscience is clear that you are no longer “under the law.” Thank you Jesus!
Anyway, look at what Gal 4:5 then says! Redemption from law breaking leads to the ADOPTION of sons! The “adoption of sons,” is then defined as the reception of the Holy Spirit! We have now seen that the Holy Spirit gives the POWER to become sons of God in John 1:12, and in a comparison and contrast with Galatians 4:5-6 we see that the power in John 1:12 is replaced by the Holy Spirit! Therefore, we conclude that the power is imparted by the Holy Spirit’s presence in the life, to the demand of faith, which is BIBLICAL belief!
Pete
P.S. This is the GOSPEL! It is the truth, that we need God’s redeeming grace (power to overcome sin in our life!
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. KJV
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Post by HDmatt on Jul 4, 2008 12:54:34 GMT -5
That is definitely good news pete, I could read about grace every day and never get tired of it! Its cool how w/o God I can do nothing, and He has given me everything that pertains to life and godliness, He is a good God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 4, 2008 17:11:57 GMT -5
I like what Pelagius said. We can live holy because of the grace of creation (free will) and also the grace of revelation (conscience, Scripture, Holy Spirit, etc). God has given us all the necessary grace to obey Him. Therefore, nobody ever has an excuse for disobedience.
Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God is a teacher. And the Bible elsewhere says that the Holy Spirit enlightens us, leads us, convicts us, etc. So Holy Spirit teaches us how to properly use the gift or grace of free will.
Again, God has given us all the necessary grace to obey Him. Therefore, nobody ever has an excuse for disobedience. Disobedience to God's moral law is always optional and avoidable. Obedience is possible for all men. Otherwise, disobedience is not their fault and they would have an excuse.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 4, 2008 21:50:58 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit gives us the power of supernatural gifts.
The ability to obey is not a supernatural ability. It is a natural ability.
Only Christians have supernatural ability.
But all men have natural ability. All men have a free will and are capable of obedience or disobedience. That is why God judged Cain. And that is why God sent the flood, and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Surely God would not have destroyed them unless they had a fee will. And the fact that Nineveh repented showed that they had a free will.
But it is through the moral influence of the Holy Spirit that mean become willing to obey. If God didn't intervene, but simply left us alone, we would never use our natural ability rightly. We need divine influence, we need divine enlightenment. Without the help of the Holy Spirit, we would never obey God.
God made us capable of obedience. The Holy Spirit makes us willing to obey.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 12, 2008 1:33:41 GMT -5
Right, election and predestination are biblical words.
Predestination = God predetermined to offer salvation to the Jews and the Gentiles. Election = God chooses to save those who repent and believe.
I am surprised that these words have caused so many problems, and people have even gotten into the errors of Calvinism over these words.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 13, 2008 19:18:22 GMT -5
The Bible teaches that God predetermined people groups (Jews and Gentiles) in Romans 9-11. God has predetermined to offer salvation to these people, and He chooses to save those who repent and believe. But even the "chosen people" were cut off (Rom 11) because they failed to meet the conditions. Theirs was obviously a conditional election.
The Holy Spirit influences us, not forces us. By presenting the truth to our minds, the Holy Spirit influences our will. Therefore we know the truth, and the truth shall set us free.
Regeneration is through revelation, when the Spirit changes a man’s moral character through the spiritual influence of conviction and instruction. Regeneration is when free will is effectively influenced by the truth; it is the will’s embracing of the truth, or the will’s yielding and obeying the truth (Jn. 6:45, 63; 8:32; 15:3; 17:17; Rom. 2:8; 6:17; 12:2 Acts 9:4-6; 1 Cor. 4:15; Tit. 2:11-12; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 1:22-23; 4:17; 2 Pet. 1:2-3; 2:20; Jas. 1:18, 21-22).
Also considering the following:
Christ died for all men (Isa. 45:22; 53:6; 55:1; Eze. 18:30-32; Matt. 23:37; Mk. 16:15-16; Lk. 2:10-11; Jn. 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 2:11; 5:15; Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:11; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22; Rev. 3:20), and He died for all specifically because all men have chosen to become sinners of their own free will (Isa. 52:3; 53:6). There is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11; 2 Pet. 1:17). God wants everyone to repent and be saved (Ps. 145:9; Eze. 18:32; 33:1; Acts 17:30-31; 2 Pet. 3:9). The atonement makes salvation possible and available, it is a gift that God offers to all to accept and receive (Jn. 1:11-12; Lk. 14:16-24; Rom 5:18) through a decision (2 Cor. 5:20) to repent and believe, though many reject God’s gracious offer (Isa. 65:2; Lk. 7:30; 14:16-24; Jn. 1:10-11; Rom. 10:21; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17) and resist His grace (Gen. 6:3; Matt. 23:37; Lk. 7:30, 13:34; Acts 7:51). God is trying to save all men (Jn. 3:16, 6:44-45, 12:32; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31, 2 Pet. 3:9). God gives light to all men (Jn. 1:9). God is convicting all men (Jn. 16:8). God is drawing all men (Jn. 6:44-45, 12:32). God is calling all men (Matt. 11:28, 22:9; Lk. 5:32; Acts 17:30; Rev. 22:17). God’s grace has appeared to all men (Rom. 5:15; Tit. 2:11-12). But many are unwilling and refuse (Isa. 30:9; 30:15-16; Jer. 8:5; Eze. 20:7-8; Matt. 11:20-21; 23:37, Mk. 6:6; 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Lk. 14:16-24 ;Jn. 5:40; Acts 7:51; 17:27; Rev. 2:21).
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Post by John McGlone on Sept 13, 2008 23:01:19 GMT -5
Having adopted seven children, I can tell you from first hand experience. The authority(judge) does not force the adoption on any child. Some may be so young they don't realize the process, maybe that is what you are referring to. But, overall the judge will question the child to ensure they desire to be adopted.
Likewise when the Holy Ghost drew me with conviction of my sin and deserved condemnation. I submitted to His authority in my life. I did not pick God, but by my freewill I submitted to Him because He is a King who is worthy of my heart, life, mind, and strength. God does not force people to be His, that would be spiritual rape. God expects a proper response because it is possible to do so for ALL men.
Question for you though: If God selects or elects individuals from eternity past to be a part of His Kingdom, does that mean He desires to destroy the rest of His creatures?
Is Israel God's chosen people? Are they all going to heaven? Is Jesus part of the elect?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 14, 2008 14:16:21 GMT -5
Your assumption that spiritual adoption is exactly like the American adoption process is absurd and unfounded. But following that logic anyways, you can be sent back to the adoption agency, i.e. you can lose your salvation. If we are really going to read into the word "adoption" and get its meaning from the modern adoption process, then you can lose your salvation. But Calvinism denies that.
But Biblically speaking, we do decide whether we are going to have the devil as our Father or whether we are going to have God as our father.
"But as many as receive him, to them gave he the right to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Jn. 1:12
The Greek word used for "receive" means to accept what is offered, to choose, to embrace, etc.
Therefore, as many as choose Christ, to them God gives the right to become the sons of God.
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edwardchow650
New Member
Exodus 15:2 "I am the LORD, your healer."
Posts: 28
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Post by edwardchow650 on Nov 12, 2008 15:40:34 GMT -5
Dunno Jsides, I get the feeling that you believe that God in his sovereignty decided: some people are going to hell, no matter what they do; some people are going to heaven, no matter what they do.
And in conclusion, you are going to heaven no matter what you do, because you have been chosen.
Please consider that God in his sovereignty may have allowed man to choose life or death. And quite often asks, "why will you die?"
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God loves you. God may have chosen and elected you. Don't forget that God loves other people too. Don't forget that God loves his enemies too. (those who are friends with the world and deliberately keep sinning) Or why would Jesus teach us to love our enemies if God did not love his enemies?
God calls people to obey righteousness. There are people who rather obey unrighteousness.
Those who continue to obey unrighteousness might be deluded by God, deceived by the devil, or self-deceived.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Terrible thought that people are deceiving themselves.
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edwardchow650
New Member
Exodus 15:2 "I am the LORD, your healer."
Posts: 28
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Post by edwardchow650 on Nov 12, 2008 15:53:16 GMT -5
Or maybe you believe this Jsides. All men are going to hell. Jesus chooses to "save" some people. Jesus chose to "save" you. And you cannot undo his "saving" power.
Does this sound right?
Not that I wish to undermine what you believe. But I want to clarify what you are trying to convey.
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edwardchow650
New Member
Exodus 15:2 "I am the LORD, your healer."
Posts: 28
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Post by edwardchow650 on Nov 12, 2008 19:04:06 GMT -5
Jesus, James, Peter, and John have reliable words to put your life on. -If you can read it objectively with an unbiased mindset.
As for Paul and other scripture, 2 Peter 3:16 There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
If people are twisting SCRIPTURE from the BIBLE to their own destruction, how much more destructive can 20th Century writings be?
But Peter states how we may prevent ourselves from being destroyed:
2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
Let's clarify, who are the lawless people?
1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
See the error of lawless people, twisting scripture to their own destruction. Make sure you are not one of these people.
How do you make sure? Ask yourself if the teaching accords with godliness, (1 Tim 6:3) instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16) and if it will make you perfect and prepared for every good work. (2 Tim 3:17)
Does this sound like what you believe in? Are you going to trust John Piper with your eternal soul?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 13, 2008 10:10:47 GMT -5
Pink = Calvinist
Spurgeon = Calvinist Edwards = Calvinist
Piper = Calvinist
Ravenhill = Holiness Arminian
How can your theological views be represented by both Calvinist and Arminians?
Ravenhill said, "if you sin every day in word, thought, and deed, you'll go to hell."
Piper said, "we all sin every single day."
One of these is wrong, and it is not Ravenhill.
Ravenhill also taught the Arminian governmental atonement view.
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Post by possess on Nov 13, 2008 12:04:01 GMT -5
jsides, there really is some awesome logic at work in these arguments, I think that you will find as I have that at this site that these are people that will reason from the scriptures. I don't know much about "Arminian" circles, but I run in some pretty strong Calvinist circles, and by that I mean the five points, as nearly everybody who uses the term refers to to them. The other things (paedobaptism, exclusive psalmody) are referring to "Reformed", and some would say, well he's not "Reformed". Calvinism refers to the five points, of which, any Calvinist worth his salt will tell you, perseverance of the saints is the least defensible. At any rate, these guys are not merely prooftexting, so be prepared to give a coherent answer. I agree there are some scriptural issue not fully answered, maybe glossed over, but we'll see as these conversations continue. But, jsides, what is your purpose in arguing? If it is just a theological exercise, then you lose even if you are right. What's going on here is people genuinely concerned about there brothers, not just holding to a false teaching, but the results of how they view this teaching. Listen to the radio shows, and even watch some of the videos, and you can see how out of line people get just over things like "you should not be sinning at all" and "yes it is possible not to sin" (that's posse non pecare, for you reformed folks!).....
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 13, 2008 23:18:19 GMT -5
jsides, first of all, my name is Kerrigan Skelly. Skelly is my last name. Secondly, where did you hear that Mark Spence asked me to drop his endorsement from my website? Thirdly, even if he did, who gave you permission to make that public. Finally, what does that have to do with whether Calvinism is Biblical or not? By the way, would you mind introducing yourself? I mean, since you know so much about me, it would be nice to know who I am talking to...
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Post by John McGlone on Nov 14, 2008 7:41:27 GMT -5
Is Israel Gods Chosen people? To answer you must go to scripture the bible tells us all of Isreal will be saved not might be saved but will be saved. The bible also tells us not all of Israel is of Israel can u be an ethnic jew be born in Isreal and not saved sure if you have not believed on the Messiah. The question is yes Israel is Gods chosen people the remaining question who is Israel all those who have repented of there sin and believed on the Messiah. Is Jesus part of the elect? This question is like asking if Jesus is a CHRISTIAN. Christ is the one who does the electing. The word Israel means, 'governed by God.' So most of us you will find here that we love and submit to God's governance. We want to obey our Savior. So I don't disagree with your assessment that ethnic or national Israel is not governed by the Messiah. The point of me asking if Jesus is the elect because the Bible calls Him that. The Bible also calls the saints and angels elect also. Why is that important? Because we need to understand how the term applies to a group of people vs. an individual God arbitrarily picked from the foundation of the world.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 19, 2008 13:20:35 GMT -5
God learns the outcome of contingencies once they occur. Because of man's free will, his moral decisions are contingencies. A contingency is when there are two alternative options which are not necessitated or certain. Because of free will, we live in an open system of possibilities. God knows all of the possibilities of man's decisions, but the outcome of a contingency is known to God when the outcome is determined by man. That is why God said to Abraham "now I know" (Gen. 22:12). Abraham sacrificing Isaac was a contingency. It was not determined until Abraham determined to actually do it. So God learned the outcome of this contingency once Abraham's free will determined this course of the future. The future is unfolding and is continually being determined. God has eternally known the possibilities, but God is learning the actualities as they unfold.
God always knows what there is to know. But the outcome of a contingency cannot be known until it is determined. And so God knows all of the possibilities, but which of these possibilities are actually going to occur is known to God when they are chosen by free will.
God Tests People To See What Their Response Will Be:
It should be understood that when God says "whether...or not" He clearly implies contingent choices or open possibilities.
"And he said, lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son..." Gen 22:12
"Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not." Ex 16:4
"And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments or not." Deut 8:2
"Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." Deut 13:3
"that through them I may prove Israel whether they will keep the way of the Lord to walk therein, as their fathers did keep, or not." Judges 2:20-22, Ex 33:2, Ex 34:24
"And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the Lord." Judges 3:4
"And when the Lord saw that they humbled themselves." 2Chron 12:6-7 (That are many other scriptures that say "when the Lord saw.." as well)
"God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart." 2Ch 32:31
Because God has granted man free will, we live in an open system with moral possibilities and alternative courses which we ourselves decide and determine, which we ourselves have the ability to choose between..
See also the following about the contingency of moral character: Gen 4:6-7, Deut 8:2, Judges 2:20-22, Exodus 33:2, Exodus 34:24, Eze 3:19, Eze 12:13, Eze 33:19, Jer 18:8-10, Psalms 81:13, Job 11:14, Matt 23:26, Romans 6:12, 1Corinthians 10:13
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Post by joeldad on Nov 19, 2008 13:41:08 GMT -5
If we were to say that "God can learn something", the accusation that usually follows is this: "Then you are saying that if God's knowledge can increase, then you could trace back His knowledge to a point where He knew much less, or nothing at all." Jesse explained it pretty well though, by pointing out that God realizes (knows) the outcomes of contingencies when they actually occur. Until a thing becomes a certainty, it is merely a possibility and not an object of knowledge. God knows all that can be known and has ALWAYS know all that can be known. As He created moral beings with free wills of their own, an innumerable series of contingent possibilities became potential objects of knowledge that God could "know" once they occured. This however, is not the same type of knowledge as "learning" something new. As though God could be taught a better way to arrange molecules or build a better tiger! You can't teach God something new, but He does test His creation to see how it will respond using the moral capacities He has endowed it with.
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 19, 2008 14:14:52 GMT -5
Kerrigan although I do not have my own web site up and you are interested in finding more about me you can check my info on facebook Jason Sides or soon to be on Ambassadors Alliance. Several post have been made but know one yet has even attempted to answer my question Can God learn anything? Yeah, well, I have no idea who you are and you still didn't answer any of my questions. Here they are again: 1) Where did you hear that Mark Spence asked me to drop his endorsement from my website? 2) Who gave you permission to make that public? 3) What does that have to do with whether Calvinism is Biblical or not?
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Post by njenkins on Dec 7, 2009 17:58:59 GMT -5
Interesting comments brother Jesse. However I think Paul is clear in Romans 6 we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God. This is the Calvinist view of the human will. By default from birth we voluntarily agree with sin.. It's not until the saving work of God by the Gospel and Him drawing us that we are converted and sanctified.. Not understanding about our nature takes away God's Sovereignty in salvation. And that undermines the character of God in general by questioning His sovereignty in all things.
God Bless, Nick
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 7, 2009 21:27:29 GMT -5
Paul says in Romans 6 that we yield ourselves servants of sin or servants of righteousness. It is by free will choice that we are either sinners or saints. By nature we are free to choose between obedience and disobedience. All men have chosen to be sinners which is why we need God's gracious influence to be converted.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 7, 2009 21:39:18 GMT -5
If our will was not free, sinners would never repent and saints would never sin. The fact that sinners do sometimes repent, and that saints sometimes do sin, is proof that our will is free to choose between obedience and disobedience.
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