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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 13:26:12 GMT -5
John,
I don't think I do. I'm trying to get to the core of the issue. Thats why I keep asking that same question. Are pre-accountable children sinful in such a way that it guarantees their "choice" once they do become accountable?
And then I would also like to know how the blood of Jesus relates to these unaccountable sinful innocents. Did they need His blood to be shed? But these are questions that I would like to hear your view on after I hear your answers to the first one.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 13:37:00 GMT -5
Sin, or sinfulness, has to do with deliberate violations of God's law.
A person without knowledge is not held accountable because they have no guilt, they have no sin. A child is not held accountable for their actions because they don't know better. And since they don't know better, they have no moral character, they have no sin. If there is no sin and no guilt, there is nothing for them to be accountable to. You are only accountable to your knowledge. This is what the Bible says:
“Your children, which . . . had no knowledge between good and evil” (Deut. 1:39);
“For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good” (Isa. 7:16);
“Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth” (Jn. 9:41);
“If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin” (Jn. 15:22);
“Where no law is, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15);
“Sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Rom. 5:13);
“To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (Jas. 4:17);
Pre-accountable children are not sinful at all. But all men, by their own free will, have chosen to be sinners at the age of accountability. That is simply reality. Look around. Everyone has chosen to be a sinner.
Children have three strikes against them. They have the world, the flesh, and the devil. Adam and Eve had better odds then the children born today.
Again they are not sinful. They are innocent and ignorant, and therefore they are unaccountable. If they were sinful, they would deserve hell forever.
Innocent babies do not deserve hell, therefore they do not need an atonement. Infant children have never sinned, therefore they need no forgiveness. Jesus said that only the sick need a doctor - only sinners need a Savior. Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. But infant babies are not sinners. Infant babies are innocent.
They do not have any sin that they would deserve hell for. But neither do infants deserve heaven. So when God let's children into Heaven, it is by His grace since they don't deserve it.
Do you believe that infant children deserve hell forever?
Do you believe infant children go to Heaven or hell if they die?
Do infants need to repent and believe to go to Heaven, or are they saved without repentance and faith?
Do you believe in infant baptism?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 13:41:28 GMT -5
Also Adiel,
Before we move on, do children speak languages as soon as they are born?
Is Ps. 58:3 literal or figurative? Is it poetic or realistic?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 13:52:24 GMT -5
Jesse that first question you answered was asked to John. It was directly tied to his previous example of the murderous child who was not tried as an adult.
For you, I am mainly interested in knowing whether you agree with this statement:
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 13:54:02 GMT -5
Also Adiel, Before we move on, do children speak languages as soon as they are born? Is Ps. 58:3 literal or figurative? Is it poetic or realistic? People don't necessarily have to use words to speak lies. And I will answer your questions once you answer the one I have been asking all along! Fair enough?
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 13:54:11 GMT -5
God has never removed the freedom of choice from any human heart that is not reprobate.
As Jesse has already explained quite a few times from many scriptures that they choose to sin after they have attained a knowledge to what is morally right and wrong, that is sin.
To know what is right and do wrong anyway. That is rebellion to God's authority in the present. This leads to condemnation in the present, lest one turns in repentence.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 13:58:16 GMT -5
Adiel, in a discussion each party has the right to ask questions and expect to receive responses from the other party. That is natural communication and debating processes.
Your expectation that we should answer all your questions without you having a responsibility to answer ours is not ideal for good dialogue.
Really can you give me other instances? Maybe you could do this in your heart and God would know it. But is it sin before it is committed or just temptations? Are you refuting Ps 58:3 as poetic language?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:03:25 GMT -5
God has never removed the freedom of choice from any human heart that is not reprobate. As Jesse has already explained quite a few times from many scriptures that they choose to sin after they have attained a knowledge to what is morally right and wrong, that is sin. To know what is right and do wrong anyway. That is rebellion to God's authority in the present. This leads to condemnation in the present, lest one turns in repentence. Listen John. I am a simple guy. Please give me a simple answer. Does a child's innocent sinless self-indulgence and gratification of the flesh guarantee his choice once he becomes accountable? Yes? No? If no then how is it that every single human being (outside of the Lord of course) who has ever lived, all 10 billion + of us, one hundred percent of the time, immediately, instantly, simultaneous with becoming accountable choose to sin?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 14:15:06 GMT -5
Nothing forces the child to sin. Individuals freely sin. Even the devils sin freely. Nobody ever has to sin.
It is baffling to think that nobody ever had to sin, yet everyone has chosen to sin. Everyone could have lived a completely obedient life, yet all men have chosen to go astray, all men have chosen to sin. That is simply reality. Everyone who is born could choose to obey God perfectly, yet nobody has ever done it accept Jesus Christ. Adam didn't. Eve didn't. And we didn't.
Adiel, to answer your questions, as to WHY free will beings sin, ask yourself. Why did you choose to break God's law, once you knew right from wrong? Why did you do it?
Why did Adam freely break God's law?
Why did Eve freely break God's law?
Why did Satan freely break God's law?
Why did 1/3 of the angels freely break God's law?
Your answer for these questions will answer the question, "Why have all men freely chosen to break God's law?"
----------------------------------------------------
Yes I would agree with that. I don't see any problems with it, unless I am missing something.
At the age of accountability, moral agents freely choose to sin (when they don't have to) as they continue their habit pattern of self-centered self-indulgence. Once individuals know right from wrong, they immediately and instantly do what they know is wrong.
Do you think that something forces us to sin? That something makes us sin? If so, how could we be responsible or accountable? If sin is not our fault, but is necessary and unavoidable, how could we be punished for sinning anymore than we could be punished for being born? You can't punish a man for being born black, or white, or punish a man if he was born a sinner or couldn't help but to be a sinner.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 14:16:34 GMT -5
No. Because the carnal mind is at enmity with God...... The sin loving sinner, loves the darkness. John 3:18-20 I am sure you know this: You must be born again of the Holy Spirit! John 3:3 Now will you saddle up? Do babies go to Hell? Simple question for a simple guy.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:16:36 GMT -5
Adiel, in a discussion each party has the right to ask questions and expect to receive responses from the other party. That is natural communication and debating processes. Your expectation that we should answer all your questions without you having a responsibility to answer ours is not ideal for good dialogue. Really can you give me other instances? Maybe you could do this in your heart and God would know it. But is it sin before it is committed or just temptations? Are you refuting Ps 58:3 as poetic language? I guess I'm just more interested in hearing your views than sharing mine (as I'm still learning). But yeah, I will attempt to answer some of your questions. Even though, I still don't feel satisfied with anyone's answers to the one question I keep asking. Not that I don't like your answer but that I don't feel it sufficiently answers my question. Almost like it misses the essence of the question or something. An example of an instance where someone can speak a lie without words would be a deceitful nod of the head, or a false cry or laugh or smile to get your way. Also I think we have to be careful with hyper-literalness (made up word?). For example when Jesus said that He is the Door that whoever enters through Him will be saved. In a way He was being literal. He really is the Door to heaven. You literally have to go through Him. But in another way He is not being literal. He is not saying that He is an actual wooden door with hinges and a doorknob . That would be understanding the passage in a hyper-literal fashion. This is what I think you are doing if you restrict "speaking lies" to actually mouthing deceitful understandable formal language and words. Instead I think it means that even babies are deceitful.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:18:58 GMT -5
Adiel, to answer your questions, as to WHY free will beings sin, ask yourself. Why did you choose to break God's law, once you knew right from wrong? Why did you do it? Because it pleased me. At the time it brought satisfaction to my heart.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 14:22:38 GMT -5
Men must take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for being sinners. It is their own fault because it is their own choice:
“And God looked upon the earth and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” Gen. 6:12
“…they have corrupted themselves” Exo. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Hos. 9:9
“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no not one.” Ps. 14:2-3
(Notice you are not born filthy, you become filthy)
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way…”Isa. 53:6
“God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions.” Ecc. 7:29
================================================
"If a man were created evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.” Justin Martyr (First Apology Chap. 43)
“Those who do not do it [good] will receive the just judgment of God, because they had not work good when they had it in their power to do so. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for they were created that way. Nor would the former be reprehensible, for that is how they were made. However, all men are of the same nature. They are all able to hold fast and to go what is good. On the other hand, they have the power to cast good from them and not to do it.” Irenaeus (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
“And lest, on the other hand, it should be thought to be nature's fault that some have been unrighteous, I shall use the evidence of the scripture, which everywhere lay upon sinners the heavy weight of the charge of having used their own will and do not excuse them for having acted only under constraint of nature.” Pelagius (The Letters of Pelagius and his Followers by B. R. Rees, p. 43, published by The Boydell Press).
"If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice." Ignatius (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume One, p. 61)
“The Scriptures…emphasize the freedom of the will. They condemn those who sin, and approve those who do right… We are responsible for being bad and worthy of being cast outside. For it is not the nature in us that is the cause of the evil; rather, it is the voluntary choice that works evil.” Origen (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 289, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 14:29:36 GMT -5
First point well reasoned, thank you. But your second hyper-literal reasoning only proves the point that poetic language is used in the Bible for example:
Ps 51:5-6 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
Often Calvinists will use this passage to 'prove' we are all born in sin. Couldn't David's mother have conceived him in adultery? Isn't that possible? Later in the passage God will 'make' him to know wisdom.
Look farther down in vs 7-8
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
Did God really 'break' his bones?
So your 2nd point proves what we have been trying to get Christians to examine. Can I take and isolate a verse, connect the dots with other verses and come up with a doctrine that contradicts other verses? Absolutely not!
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:30:27 GMT -5
I truly do not understand your answer. For further clarification I will post my question and your answer side by side. If that is what you are saying? If so, I am honestly confused and will need to ask you some questions for further clarification. If not, I am obviously still confused. I'll answer your question but please lets not take the conversation in that direction until I understand your previous answers. Lets not move to another point before I understand the point at hand! Do babies go to hell? I don't believe so.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 14:34:14 GMT -5
Adiel, for this kind of post I have termed the coin: THEOLOGICAL TSUNAMI!!!!! I am from Hawaii and that is where the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center is located. I think they detected a major theo quake somewhere on the mid Atlantic ridge.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 14:37:33 GMT -5
Do babies deserve hell?
Are babies born under God's wrath?
Before they make any conscious moral choices, are they under condemnation, deserving to burn in hell forever and ever?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:40:45 GMT -5
Men must take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for being sinners. It is their own fault because it is their own choice: “And God looked upon the earth and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” Gen. 6:12 “…they have corrupted themselves” Exo. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Hos. 9:9 “The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no not one.” Ps. 14:2-3 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way…”Isa. 53:6 “God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions.” Ecc. 7:29 Amen! But why is it that men corrupt themselves by practicing sin? Because sin pleases them. It satisfies their hearts. Right? ================================================ Whats with all the extra biblical sources? Lets just stick to the Word of the living God please.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 14:44:59 GMT -5
Ask away.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 14:51:58 GMT -5
I would say that they choose sin because they are seeking some type of gratification. I wouldn't necessarily say of "their hearts" because their hearts cannot be satisfied with sin, in the sense of our conscience - the law written on our hearts. When a sinner chooses to sin, his own heart convicts and condemns him. So it is not really his heart (or the law written upon his heart - conscience) that he is trying to gratify, it is the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life that he is trying to gratify.
"And when the women saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:6
Sin is when a free moral being seeks to gratify a natural God given desire in a forbidden or selfish way.
It wasn't their names that I thought might persuade you, it was their reasoning. They argued that if you were created evil and could not help but to be evil, then you could not be responsible and accountable for it. It would be like punishing a black man because he was born black.
Suppose a country said, "It is illegal to be black". But then they find a black man. He says, "But I couldn't help it. I was born this way." And the court said, "It doesn't matter. That is no excuse. You broke the law. Now you have to face justice" as they cast him into prison. This would not be true justice!
Now image God said, "It is illegal to be a sinner." But then God looks upon the world and sees a bunch of sinners. They give their excuse, "But I couldn't help it. I was born this way." But God says, "It doesn't matter. You broke the law. Now you have to face justice" as He casts them into hell forever. This would be cruel, unjust, and monstrous! God forms us in the womb. Does God punish us for being what He formed us to be?
God punishes sinners because their sin is their own free choice. It is their own fault that they are sinners because it is their own choice that they are sinners. And so God rightly holds them responsible and accountable, since it is their own doing.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 14:55:10 GMT -5
OK. Thank you. Quote: Are you identifying the self-indulging innocent flesh-gratifying unaccountable child as "carnally minded" and at "enmity with God"? Are you labeling him a "sin loving sinner" who "loves the darkness" and "must be born again of the Holy Spirit" though he is sinlessly innocent, unaccountable, and not guaranteed to choose to sin once he becomes accountable?
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 15:04:11 GMT -5
Here is the 2RB show from 7/27. I did not intend to call this night either. I was researching the radiotalkblogspot and just 'happened' to get on there 15 minutes before the 2RB show came on. So then I logged in just to chat a bit after they mentioned our names again. Well, I actually got the compulsion to call with about 45 minutes left. Thanks guys for your patience. www.blogtalkradio.com/tworeformedbrothers/2008/07/28/Episode-32-Reformed-Think-Tank
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 15:09:45 GMT -5
I am NOT identifying the child with the sin loving sinner, I believe you have been. The demarcation line is that point in which God in His Soveriegnty will hold them accountable. This is the point in which the person has developed comprehension to understand moral good and evil.
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 15:31:42 GMT -5
So the child is not a carnally minded sin-loving sinner though he is mastered by the principle of self-indulgent flesh-gratification... yet... he always, one hundred percent of the time, without fail, instantly "chooses" to sin at the exact instant he becomes accountable?
OK John. I gotta get going. By God's grace I'll be "taking the Gospel where it belongs" soon and I have to get ready.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 16:07:29 GMT -5
It seems far easier to believe that all men, at the age of accountability, have chosen to become sinners and therefore God rightly and justly holds them accountable, then it is to believe that all men, before they were even conscious, sinned in Adam because they were his semen, and therefore all men are born under the wrath of God for an event that occurred without their knowledge and without their choice, then sinners proceed to commit actual sin because their sinful nature forces them to do so, and God punishes them for doing what they could not help but to do. I think that our position is far easier to believe than this other position.
If sin is unavoidable, sin cannot be rightly and justly punished. But if sin is avoidable, then God can rightly and justly punish all those who choose to sin. We are not sinners because we were in Adam's loins when he sinned (his semen), we are sinners because at the age of accountability, we have all chosen to violate God's good and reasonable law.
God gave us a free will; His law is not impossible; sin is avoidable; therefore we can be rightly and justly held accountable for our actions.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 2, 2008 16:31:35 GMT -5
Ez 18:19-32 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 18:59:40 GMT -5
John,
I wasn't able to go out unfortunately but I have still been considering why all men everywhere without exception always begin to sin as soon as they enter upon moral agency. OK this is what I am trying to figure out... if one hundred out of one hundred men die then to me that means that death is a sure thing. Or if every single time I throw a ball up into the air it falls back down, always, without exception, one hundred out of one hundred times then to me the fact that the ball will definitely fall back down (without fail) is a sure thing. It is a "guarantee". Anytime something always happens a certain way, one hundred percent of the time, I see the thing as a guarantee. Now, every single person without exception, once they reach the age of accountability, always, every single time, begins to sin. It always happens without fail. One hundred out of one hundred, ten billion plus out of ten billion plus, of us have sinned as soon as we reached moral agency and the same can surely be said for the billions unborn or who are living and have yet to reach the age of accountability. For now, according to Jesse they are sinless self-indulgent innocent flesh-gratifying unaccountable people. However, as soon as they reach the age of accountability it is guaranteed that they will immediately sin. Its not an if, or a maybe, or a could be, its a guarantee. Age of accountability = immediate instant "choice" to sin. Without exception. I just want to know what guarantees this. You seem to believe that their "free will" guarantees this. But since one hundred percent of the people are guaranteed to "choose" the same thing, it doesn't seem so "free" to me. It looks to me to be more of an "evil" will than a "free" will.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 2, 2008 19:14:07 GMT -5
Adiel,
I think we have answered your questions to the best of our ability. Nobody has to sin. Everyone has chosen to be a sinner. They didn't have to, but they did. That's just the way it is. Adam chose to be a sinner, he didn't have to. Eve choose to be a sinner, she didn't have to. Lucifer chose to be a sinner, he didn't have to. 1/3 of the angels choose to be sinners, they didn't have to. I choose to be a sinner, I didn't have to. You choose to be a sinner, you didn't have to. Etc.
Do you think you might be able to answer some of my questions?
1. Do infants deserve hell? If so, why?
2. Are children born under God's wrath? If so, why?
3. Are we accountable for things that occur without our knowledge and without our consent (Adam's sin)?
4. On Judgment Day, will you be accountable for what your grandfather did? According to some, you were in his "loins" (his semen) and therefore share in his actions. Do you agree with this?
5. Is there anything that forces us to sin? If so, what?
6. If sin is unavoidable, how can we be accountable for it?
7. Can a person be justly imprisoned for being born black? Why or why not?
8. Can a person be justly sent to hell for being born a sinner? Why or why not?
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Post by Brother Adiel on Aug 2, 2008 19:54:26 GMT -5
But it is guaranteed that everyone will. Without exception or hesitation. One hundred percent of the time. Immediately once they reach the age of accountability. Right? I just want to know what guarantees this. Do you believe that "free will" guarantees that people will begin to sin instantly as soon as they reach the age of accountability? I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. But please consider that any answer I give is tentative as I am still studying this topic. 1. Do infants deserve hell? If so, why?There is a certain sense in which they do deserve hell being that we are all born in sin. All infants are born with a sinful heart that as soon as it reaches the moment of accountability will definitely willfully sin against God. But until that point, when they willfully rebel against God knowingly, I believe that Jesus' atoning sacrifice cover their sinfulness. In other words, I believe that the Lamb's blood covers their sinfulness up until the point they knowingly and defiantly personally willfully sin. 2. Are children born under God's wrath? If so, why?Answered above. I will add that apart from the blood of Jesus Christ there would be no hope for any human whether they be unaccountable or accountable. 3. Are we accountable for things that occur without our knowledge and without our consent (Adam's sin)?Not in general but when it comes to our representative Adam, yes. For example everyone dies a physical death even babies. Or as it is written, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation". 4. On Judgment Day, will you be accountable for what your grandfather did? According to some, you were in his "loins" (his semen) and therefore share in his actions. Do you agree with this?Well that depends on whether God has decided that my grandfather should be my representative. I don't think He has. But I do believe that God has decreed that our father Adam should be our representative. And more importantly, God has decreed that Jesus Christ the Lord should be the representative of His sheep (those whom the Father has given Him). 5. Is there anything that forces us to sin? If so, what?I don't think anyone is forced to sin. I think we all willfully and wickedly choose to sin. Its what gratifies the unredeemed's wicked heart. So its not like there is something that is "forcing" us to sin but there definitely is something in unregenerate man that desires sin above God. Unregenerate man does what he wants: sin. I don't think unregenerate man is neutral. I think he definitely desires sin above holiness. I know I did before God graciously saved me. 6. If sin is unavoidable, how can we be accountable for it?Because we know it is wrong and do it anyway. 7. Can a person be justly imprisoned for being born black? Why or why not?No. Because being black is not sinful. 8. Can a person be justly sent to hell for being born a sinner? Why or why not?I don't think God sends people to hell for "being born a sinner". I think God sends people to hell because they love and practice a lie.
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Post by logic on Aug 2, 2008 23:49:52 GMT -5
I have still been considering why all men everywhere without exception always begin to sin as soon as they enter upon moral agency. An infant is born sinless(with no law, therefore, no sin), innocent, with no conscience(a conscience is learned). It only makes sence If a "newly accountable child" does not love Christ before he/she becomes accountable, he/she will continue to live according to the flesh. Sin must be a choice, we all agree to this. Choice implies an option. Since there is an option, then there can not be a garantee. Think of it as not loving Christ at the point of accountability is the guarantee for sinning. If one does not love Christ, I can garauntee that they will sin, BECAUSE they are of the mindset of the fleash. Those of the mindset of the fleash will sin inevitably. However, a child born brought up knowing Christ, which is eternal life, and becomes accountable for its own actions will be able to follow the righteous requirements of the Law because of his love for God, because he will be walking after the spirit that so that he does not fullfill the lust of the flesh. Options are not gauranteeable. Can you guarantee that a infant will not be brought up loving Christ? Can you guarantee that a infant will not have faith in order to walk after the spirit so that he will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh? I will mind you that I know of a child that is full of the Holy Spirit, he is under the age of accountability. this child will not sin for he fullfills the righteousness of the law by walking after the spirit. This is the same as John the Baptizer, for he was filled with the SPIRIT in the womb. All infants are born with a sinful heartWas John the baptizer? If so, how was he filled with the SPIRIT in the womb? The president of the United States is our representative. If he murders a man, would we all by acountable for that murder? Physical death is not the wage of sin, spiritual death is. Why would God make Adam our representative to the extent that his personal sin is charged to us? (See the question about the president) Then you agree that which is unavoidable is condemnable? Could there be a law against breathing? would that be a just law? why not? It couldn't be sin. There could not be a justifieable law against it. Just as making a law that is unavoidable is unjust, if sin is unavoidable, then we must be innocent.
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