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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 8, 2009 9:43:18 GMT -5
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 8, 2009 18:54:20 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that Steve. I haven't listened to it yet but I was interested to here his view on it.
Even though his views on santification and open air preaching are about like the Assemblies of God I think he knows Hebrew subjects very well.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 8, 2009 22:47:07 GMT -5
I've only listened to some of it so far but I think it's pretty good. He challenges those who say we should be keeping all of the torah. Here's a some of his questions?:
What about the law that speaks of a man marrying the widowed wife of his brother and the first child carrying on that brother's name? Are you suppose to engage in polygamy here if you're married?
How many of you have stoned your rebellious children?
Do you make pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year?
If you find mildew in your house do you find a priest and offer up the right sacrifices for cleansing?
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Post by jackjackson on Jan 9, 2009 14:50:08 GMT -5
Steve:
We are also supposed to obey the laws of the lands we are in, aren't we? That is what Jesus taught. So as far as the first law for man marrying his brothers widow, in our Nation this is outlawed. But, will that happen again in Israel? I suppose if that it what Jesus' brings back, we aren't going to argue with Him, will we. We show our enmity at that law when we say such things, rather than ask by Torah why God asked this to be done. It had to do with inheritance and care for people. God wanted the land to stay in the possession of Israel, so providing an heir of the proper tribe helped to ensure the territories stayed as the lots we casts. This is also why the daughters of the one patriach were given a portion of land.
It is an ignorant question to ask if we are supposed to engage in polygamy! It could be seen as scoffing at God's laws, but I don't believe that is what you are doing; are you?
As for stoning children, many people with teenagers might like to see this come back. Again, we must understand this as whether it would be lawful for us to do where we live today. I believe in the USA, the last time I checked, we can barely avoid jail for spanking. But this was God's way to place eveil from among them. Consider for a second a possible reason for this law. If a child, likely below age of accountability in Israel, showed signs of never following God, maybe it was more loving to kill them then have them spend eternity in hell. This assumes that "children" will not be judged as adults in the "final judgement". It also brought the fear of God, just having the law. From what I am told in history, this was not carried out much in Israel, because it required 2 or 3 witnesses, and normally both parents seldom were left with this last resort. Again, we shouldn't just mock God and come to the conclusion that these laws He did give were stupid or antiquated. I feel this gain borders of scoffing at God and mocking Him; and He is not mocked!
The pilgrimages were to the Temple of God, not just to the City. Since the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and God's people dispersed, pilgrimages initailly stopped, but many are now coming back to these. The Bible tells us they will resume when the Lord comes back (Ezk 40-48), when the Temple is rebuilt, cleansed, and re-established. Again, to make fun of the pilgrimages and why God had them do them, and why He will again have us come is scoffing at God's ways, and His paths. He did say though that there would be scoffers in the last days. Is it a bad thing for all God's people to gather and have festivals together? No!
Lastly, suggesting mildew is the same thing as the thing translated "leprosy" also shows ignorance of the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:16-17). This leprosy was something only God could take away. It was not the leprosy we think of today, not simple mildew, it was from "lashan hara" or evil speak. This is what God have Moses' sister Mariam when she spoke evil of Moses. It is believed that those who talked against the leaders in their houses were cursed by God in that He could even bring this "leprosy" for a better word to a persons walls is their houses. The Levites were trained (in Scripture) what to look for, how to diagnose it, but not how to cure it. Once a person's disease appeared to pass away, the Priest had very specific processes for "ritual cleansing", once God had cured them. Note, they didn't cure this, only God could. In a house, this would be scraped off, or even whole stones would be replaced. These scraping and stones would be brought out and burned. In some cases,whole homes would be destroyed.
We see whole houses (families) destroyed today when familys mock the ways of God, and His ways. When they do it their way whole generations of families will end up buring as well. This is nothing to make fun of in our ignorance Brother!
When Jesus came on the scene, and began healing people with leprosy, please read how He always asks them to go first and show themselevs to the Priests. Why? This was a sign to Levites that He was God. They used Lev. 14 (where the ritual cleansing process, not healing process) is outlined. When suddenly lepers were coming in droves to go through "ritual cleansing" after being healed by God, they were blown away. This is also how Jesus answered John the Baptist, when John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was that One, or should they look for another. He quotes the passages in Scripture that include how He would cure the lepers, who rarely got healed. Their disease cause them to be cast out of the people, out of fellowship. To be healed by God (Jesus) didn't keep tem from having to go thru ritual cleansing process outlined in Torah in Lev. 14. Jesus' sending them to the Priests, was obedience to Torah. They were 100% free of leprosy when Jesus healed them, but He didn't say, "go home to your families" He instead said go and show yourselves to the Priests.
Brothers, please be very careful of teachers Michael Brown. They may tickle your ears, but they mock God and make fun of His laws which Paul Says are good and holy and just. Ezk. prophesied that these would come back, when He comes back (Ezk 40-48). I ould not want to one who made fun of His ways, even in ignorance.
Maybe you would would laugh at God's Torah, and make fun of Torah, and even scoff at the thought of them coming back; should consider studying the Torah; asking God to first open your eyes that you might see wonderous things in His Torah (Psalm 119:18).
Steve, is it good so far because he agrees with you, or because he backs up his scoffing with clear Scripture? I will again suggest that after I read his page I find him a false teacher.
The idea of "must" Christians keep the Sabbath, is already a statement at enmity with God's hallowed day.
The question might be asked "Since God hallowed the Sabbath for His people to be set aside as His people from among all people, by it; should those who call themselves His people, observe the sabbath so they too can be set aside from the pagan world, by observing and honoring the day the Lord Himself set aside as Holy and hallowed it amoung other profane (orindary) days?
When I realized this was His Sabbath, as Lord of the Sabbath (not a day chosen by the Jews, but a day of God's choosing for His people); I was blown away (Lev. 23). These Scriptures clearly show them as His Sabbaths and His Festivals.
Must a Christian keep these?
Must a Christian stop coveteing; stop bearing false witness; stop commiting adultery; stop murdering people; and stop stealing? Must a Christian have no other God's; not make graven images; not use His name in vain; and honor their parents?
I guess you have still have free will and ignore all or any of those if you want. I don't recommend anyone ignore those 9, and I am sure none of you do either. So I guess 9/10 is fine with God. I guess He just threw in a another one just to have an even number, not really for us to consider obeying, but because He had room to fill up in the stones He was writing so stuck that command, the longest one in the middle to fill up space.
No, you can disobey as many of God's laws as your heart wants to, you have free will. That is not what Jesus did though, He loving kept all 10 and never broke any of the Torah laws.
Was Jesus just "under the law"?
Did He only keep them because He had too, or because they good and holy and just nd obeyed all His father asked out of love?
Do you have too? Not if you don't want to, but if you don't want to, you need a heart check up to see if you are carnal (Romans 8:6-9).
After the Galatians, former pagans, started turning back to their pagan "weak and beggarly elements" wanting again to go back to bonds of sin; their old pagan days observed in pagan days, pagan months (sun based), pagan times, and pagan years: Paul was afraid for them. He had taught them the Holy Days of God; which Paul followed as He followed Christ. Many we reportedly so confused by Judiazers they were turning back to pagan ways, seeing themselves right back in systems of men. Paul taught being freed from sin, they could obey from a changed heart (Romands 6:17). Some came in telling them they first had to obey, before God would accept them in. They taught sanctification as a means to be justified, which is works alone.
God didn't ask His people to obey first, He asked they trust Him first, then obey Him. Those who trusted Him, placed blood on the door posts. Those who trusted Him then followed Him into the desert. It was once in "freedom" from bondage (Egypt a typology for sin) that He introduced commands to sanctify His people He freed. He knew His true children of the good seed ould obey, without question. Delayed obedience is no obedience at all.
any who first were saved, by His grace to deliver them from bondage, fell in the wilderness because their hearts were not right, not because they didn't obey His commands. They didn't obey, because ther hearts were not right; not the other way around.
God saved them initially from Eygpt (bondage); but didn't make them follow Him. They needed to ask Him for a new heart (Deut 30:6) but they had hard hearts. God allowed many who escaped to die in the wilderness, before delivering those children of them with right hearts to enter the promised land. The Torah was never made to keep 100% to justify one's self, it was designed to define sin; in hopes God's people would ask for right hearts (escaping the bondage to sin), so they could now obey with a thankful and loving attitude towards their Creator, rather than feeling they "had too".
I feel sorry for those of you who don't thirst after righteousness? Who don't love God so much you can't wait to study and apply all His commands, being conformed to all His ways.
Once I understood these were His ways, not just Jewish ones, my heart melted towards them. I saw them as His ways, His paths; and couldn't wait to know them and walk in them. I quit listening to people and teachers making excuses and scoffing at His ways, laughing and asking ignorant questions, and sought those who were walking out Torah in love for God.
I suggest First Fruits of Zion (FFOZ.org) and Brad Scott of Wildbranch Ministry wildbranch.org
Many suggest Gal. 4 was coming against those turning to Sabbath and Feasts of God and His ways, but how could pagans, who never had kept God's ways, turn back to them?
We have indeed been lied to, and our anti-semitism and scoffing at God's laws should cause us some serious examining of who we are following: the Anomos (#459) one, anti-christ (2 Thes 2:8) who opposes God's Sabbaths, Feasts, and Torah; or Jesus Christ our Lord who followed all His father asked, kept Sabbaths and all Feasts and Torah and told us He didn't come to destroy any part of God's ways or paths.
The Anomos and the spirit of the Anomos, is anomia (#458) which is widespread in the church. I know, I had it once, and thank God I was set free by the truth. I pray you all would also be set free to worship the Lord, they way He showed demonstrated, as well as Paul did.
Are we greater than our Master? (Luke 6:40)
Please study God's word before offering ignorant questions. Doing so can cause many to stumble as they laugh and scoff with you at God's ways and paths!
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2009 0:46:45 GMT -5
Jack,
These questions from Dr. Brown and your answers show that those who are Torah-centered instead of Christ-centered don't even really keep the torah. Isn't that the whole point? You explain away and draw principles out of these laws to apply today but neither you nor anyone else really keeps them. Since when do the laws of the land override the law of God? Of course, Dr. Brown is not "mocking" the law of God. He's merely pointing out the absurdity in your position. Jack, you've gotten involved with a fringe group in the Messianic Movement. As I've said before what you think is a restoration is in truth an aberration. You are coming against these things so strongly because they expose the false teaching you've come under. I know that you deal patiently with me because you think that I oppose what you're saying in ignorance. Let me take a clear stand Jack: What you're teaching is unbiblical, false, and dangerous. I have love in my heart for you and have always appreciated your attitude in dialogue, but I dare not tolerate the poison that you've been giving out here. Jack, I say with Christ's love that you need to come to your senses and repent. I will be praying for you and your family.
Steve
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2009 15:07:00 GMT -5
Here are the 7 points about the Sabbath the Dr. Brown gives on the show: 1. The seventh day sabbath was sanctified at creation and according to prophetic scriptures it will be part of the future age. 2. The seventh day sabbath was given as a special sign between God and Israel. 3. In the N.T. Gentile believers are never called or required to observe the seventh day sabbath. They become full citizens along with Israel without having to observe the full requirements of the law. 4. There's no biblical support for the view that after the resurrection of Jesus the sabbath was changed to Sunday. 5. Since God never commanded Gentile believers to observe the seventh day sabbath there's no reason why they can't set Sunday aside as a special day of rest and worship of the Lord. Thereby incorporating the principle of sabbath into their lives. 6. The sabbath should be set aside as a day of delight in the Lord; not just a day to chill. 7. Our ultimate rest is found in a person, not a day, so sabbath observance should be both spiritual and practical. He said that he deals with the sabbath question in some depth in his book What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus? You can see that at: store.icnministries.org/whdojepethab.html
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Post by jackjackson on Jan 10, 2009 21:58:44 GMT -5
Again Steve, I believe it is you that will be shocked when Jesus comes back and sets up His kingdom as He describes by His prophet Ezekiel. Christians can't agree on where Ezk. 38 and 39 will fall; before or after a 1000 year rule of Jesus. They accept the literal 38 - 39, but because of their bias to Torah, including the Sabbath; they reject Ezk 40-48, except for 47 when it talks of healing waters from Jerusalem.
Christians look at the OT through the NT, which is backwards and contradicts Paul and the teaching he gave to the Berean's that checked the Scriptures to see if what he taught was true.
As for my explanations of the scoffing arguments from Michael Brown, I stand by what the Torah stands. The Torah indicates that when a positive command meets a negative command, one has to take presendence. For example, if one is hungry; like David and his men were, it was a situation where eating even the Shew Bread was allowed. This is why Jesus responded with that story when the Pharisee's asked why His disciples ate grain in the field on the Sabbath. Jesus didn't say "The Sabbath is done away with and old", He explained that hunger took a higher authority than the prohibition. In eating they were not breaking Torah, because it they needed to eat. Likewise, Jesus healed on Sabbath, showing it was OK to do good on Sabbath. Jesus never taught against Torah, He merely explained that the Pharisee' had added to it and made restrictions that were not there, when one really studied it.
Comments on Dr. Brown's 7 points:
1) I agree with this, and suggest that it never was actually put aside by God, by men.
2) The Sabbath was given to a mixed multitude of both ethnic Israel, and many others that left Eygpt with them, which were strangers (#1616 - ger) that joined to the "Lord" and His ways and His paths, not to Israel. This Sabbath is a sign to all who will follow Him, in His appointed times. Lev. 23 is very clear that these appointed times are His, not Jews. Is. 66:23-24 says that "all flesh" will observe them, not just Jews.
3) In the NT, the Church began with almost all Jews who continued in the Temple services, Sabbath, and Torah. Paul never left them, Jesus never left them, the Apostles never left them. If all believers are to meet together, and the Church met on sabbath, Passover, Tabernalces and all the appointed times, are we to suppose the new Gentiles had their own services on Sunday, while everone else in the Church met Saturaday? That's nuts! When they left paganism, they met to hear Torah every week in the synogouges, until the separation that Jesus spoke of which He said "they would be thrown out of the synogouge" (Matt 24 or 25). They never had to teach Sabbath, all Gentiles knew that was the day of the God of the Scriptures, it was so obvious it wasn't even in their thoughts as they wrote to mention it. Coming to worship on Sabbath was seen as a priveledge of the Gentiles in the early church, not a a hard task they didn't feel like doing. They and we also become part of the Commonwealth of Israel, so it was given they would worship with their new brothers, not keep separated through their pagan practices. They were to leave those behind and take on the customs that Jesus had, as disciples of Him. This seems so basic and simple, I can't understand how we didn't see this, except for antisemitism.
4. I agree with him, so ask, why is almost all the church worshiping on a day that was not the cistomer of their Messiah?
5. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Jesus gave the Torah. Do the math! The Anomos one (#459) and his spirit of anomia (#458) come against God's laws or Torah. One of those Torah commands, in the 10 commandments no less, is the command to Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. This is not hard to understand. Christians can worship on Sunday, but in doing so should also not set aside "Remembering His sabbath" also. God doesn't ever give us permission to observe His commands, how we decide in our flesh.
6. Yes, in fact Is. 56 says that very thing, even to the sons of the strangers, verse 56:6, who JOIN THEMSELVES TO THE LORD, TO SERVE HIM, AND TO LOVE THE NAME OF THE LORD, TO BE HIS SERVANTS, EVERY ONE THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH FROM POLLUTING IT, AND>>>>>> TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT.
What will He do for these?
Verse 7:
EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN AND MAKE THEM JOYFUL IN MY HOUSE OF PRAYER; THEIR BURNT OFFERINGS AND THEIR SACRIFICES SHALL BE ACCEPTED UPON MINE ALTER; FOR MINE HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR "ALL" PEOPLE. THE LORD GOD WHICH GATHERETH THE OUTCASTS OF ISRAEL SAITH, YET I WILL GATHER OTHERS TO HIM BESIDES THOSE THAT ARE GATHERED UNTO HIM.
These sons of strangers were not ethnic Israel, but once joined to God, didn't keep their old ways, but did His. Is this not reasonable?
7. While in our bodies, the command was for our rest also, that a body needs. To just spiritize this is wrong, and doesn't take context into account. Did the slaves and animals that were required to rest, find their rest in Jesus? No! They found their rest in resting. It wasn't a suggestion, to be practical, He is smarted than we are and knows what we need.
The Sabbath is a day the God of the Bible hallowed and sanctified for those who follow Him.
Those that follow Him, will follow Him. Those who choose not to follow Him, don't follow Him. It is that simple.
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