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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 19, 2009 17:15:20 GMT -5
I asked Kerrigan Skelly to debate a preacher (of a good report) over the purpose of Water Baptism Then he banned from Refining Fire Radio.
I hope Kerrigan Skelly chooses to accept this invitation.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 20, 2009 0:25:08 GMT -5
Jonathan, this is getting kind of old. You really need to grow up a bit. Every week we have our radio show and every week you are there talking about how you believe that Baptism is not only required for salvation, but that Baptism actually regenerates a person. I asked you nicely several times (not just this week but many weeks) to stop talking about this subject on our webchat during the radio show. You have refused to do so, so I banned you for the day. You are welcome to come back next week as long as you don't talk about the same subject again.
Our radio show webchat is not a place for you to come and basically harass other listeners with the same thing every week. If you want to talk to someone about this, then come on this message board and discuss it. The webchat is for discussion amongst the listeners regarding topics that we are talking about on the radio show. It is not the place for you to push your agenda.
I am not interested in debating anyone on the subject of Baptism right now. Maybe in the future. Right now, I am only interested in debating someone on Perseverance of the Saints or OSAS. I think that Jesse is interested in debating someone on Original Sin, Perfection and maybe even Open Theism.
And don't even try to say that my not wanting to debate has anything to do with me not having the truth or being scared, etc. Just not interested at this time. I've talked to you about it enough and don't care to discuss it with you any further. By the way, why does it have to be a Pastor who will debate one of us? What can't it just be you. You seem so sure of your position. Can't you defend it?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 20, 2009 7:32:41 GMT -5
Jonathan, this is getting kind of old. You really need to grow up a bit. Every week we have our radio show and every week you are there talking about how you believe that Baptism is not only required for salvation, but that Baptism actually regenerates a person. I asked you nicely several times (not just this week but many weeks) to stop talking about this subject on our webchat during the radio show. You have refused to do so, so I banned you for the day. You are welcome to come back next week as long as you don't talk about the same subject again. Our radio show webchat is not a place for you to come and basically harass other listeners with the same thing every week. If you want to talk to someone about this, then come on this message board and discuss it. The webchat is for discussion amongst the listeners regarding topics that we are talking about on the radio show. It is not the place for you to push your agenda. I am not interested in debating anyone on the subject of Baptism right now. Maybe in the future. Right now, I am only interested in debating someone on Perseverance of the Saints or OSAS. I think that Jesse is interested in debating someone on Original Sin, Perfection and maybe even Open Theism. And don't even try to say that my not wanting to debate has anything to do with me not having the truth or being scared, etc. Just not interested at this time. I've talked to you about it enough and don't care to discuss it with you any further. By the way, why does it have to be a Pastor who will debate one of us? What can't it just be you. You seem so sure of your position. Can't you defend it? I can defend my position and I did through our E-Mail conversation which you refuse to respond to. Why is it that you are only willing (or unwilling in this case) to debate an average person and not a preacher with a degree, such as yourself? It sounds to me that you are unsure of your proposition. You may be "unwilling" to debate Water Baptism right now but I can assure you that no preacher for the Churches of Christ (nor myself) will refuse any public debates on any subjects at anytime. Maybe you should think about that. At least you've let the community know that the invitation you extended on an earlier show was limited to debates concerning the topics you have studied.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 20, 2009 9:27:43 GMT -5
You're being very manipulative Jonathan. I've never said on my show that I am willing, open and ready to debate anything and everything. And don't lie about me and say that I haven't studied this issue. I have studied it. When did I say that I wasn't willing to debate a Pastor with a bachelor's degree such as myself? I just debating the issue. You are the one who seemed to lack confidence. I have complete confidence in my situation. I just have more important obligations right now. I might be willing to debate this later on in the Summer when I have more time.
And you need to stop lying about our interaction. I responded back and forth with you for quite some time and you never provided good responses to my objections to your position. And then, like I said, you basically exalted water baptism to the place of the Holy Spirit saying that water baptism and not the Holy Spirit is what sealed believers into the Body of Christ! I told you that was idolatry and blasphemous and didn't wish to talk to you about it anymore.
Now, since you are being as pushy about this as you are, I am just going to ignore you all together. And if you continue to talk about this on our radio show webchat, you will be banned for good. I don't wish for it to come to what it has, but you seem to lack self control on this issue. You know, self control IS a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your seeming inability to take a no on this issue and continue to be pushy makes it seem like you are cultish. Just being honest. Oh, and this is my last post on this thread...
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 20, 2009 11:45:01 GMT -5
You're being very manipulative Jonathan. I've never said on my show that I am willing, open and ready to debate anything and everything. And don't lie about me and say that I haven't studied this issue. I have studied it. When did I say that I wasn't willing to debate a Pastor with a bachelor's degree such as myself? I just debating the issue. You are the one who seemed to lack confidence. I have complete confidence in my situation. I just have more important obligations right now. I might be willing to debate this later on in the Summer when I have more time. And you need to stop lying about our interaction. I responded back and forth with you for quite some time and you never provided good responses to my objections to your position. And then, like I said, you basically exalted water baptism to the place of the Holy Spirit saying that water baptism and not the Holy Spirit is what sealed believers into the Body of Christ! I told you that was idolatry and blasphemous and didn't wish to talk to you about it anymore. Now, since you are being as pushy about this as you are, I am just going to ignore you all together. And if you continue to talk about this on our radio show webchat, you will be banned for good. I don't wish for it to come to what it has, but you seem to lack self control on this issue. You know, self control IS a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your seeming inability to take a no on this issue and continue to be pushy makes it seem like you are cultish. Just being honest. Oh, and this is my last post on this thread... The invitation's always extended.
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Post by Kureji on Apr 20, 2009 21:55:44 GMT -5
In this topic, Kerrigan learns what it's like to be annoyed by a religious crazy.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Apr 20, 2009 21:56:46 GMT -5
In this topic, Kerrigan learns what it's like to be annoyed by a religious crazy. ;D
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 25, 2009 10:28:45 GMT -5
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Kureji is funny!
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Post by regan on Apr 26, 2009 10:34:40 GMT -5
Is this Jonathan that dale guy under yet another name?
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Apr 26, 2009 11:37:14 GMT -5
Is this Jonathan that dale guy under yet another name? HAHAHA; I think Dale guy was more tolerable.
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 26, 2009 14:20:20 GMT -5
Jonathan I'm not going to debate your stance on baptismal regeneration, not because of any other reason than that i don't want my words twisted around like i've seen you do on other threads and obviously on this one too.
But, i would like you to explain why you think a person must be baptized to be saved, if you would be so kind.
A couple of questions that come to mind (and i'm sure you've heard them before and have answers for them).
First, when did the disciples get saved, was it when they were baptized by John?
Second, what about the thief on the cross, what happened to him? Thanks in advance, if you decide to answer.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 26, 2009 16:18:47 GMT -5
First, when did the disciples get saved, was it when they were baptized by John? Second, what about the thief on the cross, what happened to him? Thanks in advance, if you decide to answer. 1. The Bible doesn't say when they were baptized. Every person in the New Testament that Believed unto (toward) the remission of sins was baptized with water. Since everyone who believed and was saved was baptized, it is safe to assume that the Apostles who believed and were saved were also baptized. We know Paul was for sure (Acts 22:16). I'd also hate to place the assurance of my salvation on something that the Bible doesn't say instead of what the Bible does say. For instance: The Bible doesn't say that the Apostles were baptized, therefore, I don't have to be baptized in order to be saved. The Bible says that the Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is for the remission of sins and that same Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is with water. (Acts 2:38 10:47,48) 2 The thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant and before the great commission where the new baptism, which is in the name of Jesus was commissioned. I wouldn't be concerned about what the thief on the cross had to do to be saved if I were you. Whose to say he wasn't baptized with the baptism of John? Not to say that the Baptism of John was sufficient (Acts 19). However, this just goes to show you how presumptuous the denominational world is when it comes to Water Baptism. Hope that helped. Those who so chose to mock me are also invited to engage in an organized civil debate. Of course, there are no takers.
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Post by steve spidell on Apr 26, 2009 20:43:02 GMT -5
thanks
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Post by dmatic on Apr 29, 2009 19:16:06 GMT -5
jonathan, what is your position on water baptism?
I would suggest that no one who believes would deny that we should be baptized. But, do you make it a requirement for salvation?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 22:06:35 GMT -5
jonathan, what is your position on water baptism? I would suggest that no one who believes would deny that we should be baptized. But, do you make it a requirement for salvation? Peace, dmatic Water Baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God and it is how one calls upon the name of the Lord.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 30, 2009 14:26:31 GMT -5
So....that is a yes?
If I am reading correctly, you are saying that calling upon the Lord is done through Baptism rather than prayer?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 30, 2009 14:58:36 GMT -5
If I am reading correctly, you are saying that calling upon the Lord is done through Baptism rather than prayer? Yes, and I'm glad we both came to the same conclusion when looking at those scriptures.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 30, 2009 16:16:19 GMT -5
If I am reading correctly, you are saying that calling upon the Lord is done through Baptism rather than prayer? Yes, and I'm glad we both came to the same conclusion when looking at those scriptures. No, not the same conclusion that I came to......just making sure that is what you were saying.
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Post by Kureji on Apr 30, 2009 16:25:46 GMT -5
Anytime I want to get close to God, I just take a shower
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 30, 2009 20:12:31 GMT -5
Yes, and I'm glad we both came to the same conclusion when looking at those scriptures. No, not the same conclusion that I came to......just making sure that is what you were saying. You should explain how one calls upon the name of the Lord on the "Sinners Prayer" forum.
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Post by John McGlone on May 22, 2009 17:50:56 GMT -5
Anytime I want to get close to God, I just take a shower You made me laugh. ;D
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Post by John McGlone on May 22, 2009 17:55:36 GMT -5
First, when did the disciples get saved, was it when they were baptized by John? Second, what about the thief on the cross, what happened to him? Thanks in advance, if you decide to answer. 1. The Bible doesn't say when they were baptized. Every person in the New Testament that Believed unto (toward) the remission of sins was baptized with water. Since everyone who believed and was saved was baptized, it is safe to assume that the Apostles who believed and were saved were also baptized. We know Paul was for sure (Acts 22:16). I'd also hate to place the assurance of my salvation on something that the Bible doesn't say instead of what the Bible does say. For instance: The Bible doesn't say that the Apostles were baptized, therefore, I don't have to be baptized in order to be saved. The Bible says that the Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is for the remission of sins and that same Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is with water. (Acts 2:38 10:47,48) 2 The thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant and before the great commission where the new baptism, which is in the name of Jesus was commissioned. I wouldn't be concerned about what the thief on the cross had to do to be saved if I were you. Whose to say he wasn't baptized with the baptism of John? Not to say that the Baptism of John was sufficient (Acts 19). However, this just goes to show you how presumptuous the denominational world is when it comes to Water Baptism. Hope that helped. Those who so chose to mock me are also invited to engage in an organized civil debate. Of course, there are no takers. Dear Jonathan, You suppose the Bible does not say when the disciples were baptized. But, actually it does and not according to your view. Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. Now my first question for the first part point #1 is, when did this happen for the New Covenant believers? My second question will come after you have responded with the grace you have been given. God bless you. John
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 19:33:45 GMT -5
1. The Bible doesn't say when they were baptized. Every person in the New Testament that Believed unto (toward) the remission of sins was baptized with water. Since everyone who believed and was saved was baptized, it is safe to assume that the Apostles who believed and were saved were also baptized. We know Paul was for sure (Acts 22:16). I'd also hate to place the assurance of my salvation on something that the Bible doesn't say instead of what the Bible does say. For instance: The Bible doesn't say that the Apostles were baptized, therefore, I don't have to be baptized in order to be saved. The Bible says that the Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is for the remission of sins and that same Baptism which is in the name of Jesus is with water. (Acts 2:38 10:47,48) 2 The thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant and before the great commission where the new baptism, which is in the name of Jesus was commissioned. I wouldn't be concerned about what the thief on the cross had to do to be saved if I were you. Whose to say he wasn't baptized with the baptism of John? Not to say that the Baptism of John was sufficient (Acts 19). However, this just goes to show you how presumptuous the denominational world is when it comes to Water Baptism. Hope that helped. Those who so chose to mock me are also invited to engage in an organized civil debate. Of course, there are no takers. Dear Jonathan, You suppose the Bible does not say when the disciples were baptized. But, actually it does and not according to your view. Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. Now my first question for the first part point #1 is, when did this happen for the New Covenant believers? My second question will come after you have responded with the grace you have been given. God bless you. John Luke 3 does not say that they were saved at the point of Holy Spirit Baptism. 1) Explain your question.
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Post by John McGlone on May 23, 2009 9:59:53 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, You suppose the Bible does not say when the disciples were baptized. But, actually it does and not according to your view. Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. Now my first question for the first part point #1 is, when did this happen for the New Covenant believers? My second question will come after you have responded with the grace you have been given. God bless you. John Luke 3 does not say that they were saved at the point of Holy Spirit Baptism. 1) Explain your question. When did the believers get baptized with the Holy Spirit, and fire? If anyone else knows the answer to this simple Bible trivia question please feel free to chime in please, thank you.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 23, 2009 10:09:29 GMT -5
Luke 3 does not say that they were saved at the point of Holy Spirit Baptism. 1) Explain your question. When did the believers get baptized with the Holy Spirit, and fire? If anyone else knows the answer to this simple Bible trivia question please feel free to chime in please, thank you. The Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Cornelius and his house-hold were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10. The Apostles were not baptized with fire nor was Cornelius.
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 21:39:27 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is God, our God is a consuming fire. So yes they were baptized with fire. But, you would like to put some water on Him as a requirement for salvation!
You have traded the power of the Spirit for a water ordinance.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 13:43:02 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is God, our God is a consuming fire. So yes they were baptized with fire. But, you would like to put some water on Him as a requirement for salvation! You have traded the power of the Spirit for a water ordinance. Sir, any sincere Bible student can see your error upon a reading of Matthew 3. The sincere Bible student asks "Who" "What" "When" "Where" and "Why". "For our God is a consuming fire." in Hebrews 12:29 is referring to the judgment of God. Just as Matthew 3:10-12. I plead with you to study the scriptures with me.
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Post by John McGlone on May 26, 2009 6:05:50 GMT -5
1 Pet 1:6-8 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
Rev 3:17-19
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 26, 2009 14:26:53 GMT -5
1 Pet 1:6-8 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
Rev 3:17-19
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
We can't find a baptism of fire in any of those passage that you've quoted. You've went all the way to the book of Revelation to try to prove that the Baptism of fire is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You don't even have to leave Matthew 3 to find out what is meant by fire. Read Matthew 3:10 and 12.Though I may be wasting my time, I will supply a little contextual understanding of Matthew 3:11. Context: Jesus is talking to the multitude which was composed of Pharisees, Sadduccees, Repentant, and non repentant men.As John was talking to the multitude he said "... every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit will be cast into the fire..." then, "I ... baptize with water... but he who cometh after me is mightier than I... he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit and with fire... He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire..." In verse 10 and 12 John tells us that fire will be the judgment of those who have not obeyed the Gospel. In verse 11 John said to the multitude (including the Pharisees and Sadduccees) that Jesus will baptize them (inclusive, general) with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Just as not all of them would be baptized with the Holy Spirit neither should all of them be baptized with fire. Though some of them would be baptized with the unquenchable fire, not all would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. It's unreasonable to believe that "Fire" has any sort of positive connotation in this passage. It's obvious that this text is dealing with condemnation for those who bear not good fruit. Acts 2:2 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them."
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Post by steve spidell on May 26, 2009 21:14:23 GMT -5
Jonathan said:
"where" do you suppose the 3000 were water baptized all on the day of Pentecost? in Jerusalem? Jordan?
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