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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 14:30:03 GMT -5
WE MUST REPENT OF OUR SINS TO BE SAVED:
Consider how Paul's ministry was to call Gentiles to repentance (Acts 26:20) and Paul preached repentance (Acts 17:30-31) “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14). “Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity shall not be your ruin… Cast away from you all of your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die… For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves and live ye” (Ezekiel 18:30-32). “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isaiah 55:7). “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13).
BUT WE DO NOT NEED TO OBEY THE TORAH OR BE UNDER THE JEWISH LAWS TO BE SAVED:
When Paul was talked about the “law" he often was talking about the Jewish system, the Judaic law of Moses. Paul was not talking about the moral law. He was talking about all of the Torah. The moral law does not demand circumcision anywhere! The moral law only demands love! It is the Jewish Torah that demands circumcision. Therefor when Paul said that we are not justified by the law, he is saying that we are not justified by being circumcised. Paul emphasised predestination because His ministry was to the Gentiles, who were also "chosen" people. Likewise, Paul emphasised that we are not justified by the law (the Torah) because his ministry was to the Gentiles who were not under the law (under the Torah). We are not saved by obeying the Torah. We are saved by turning from our sins and turning to Christ. Gentiles do not need to become Jews to be saved. They do not need to be circumcised (obey the Torah or obey the law) to be saved: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren and said, except ye be CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES, YE CANNOT BE SAVED." Acts 15:1 "But neither Titus who was with me, being a GREEK, was compelled to be CIRCUMCISED. And that because of FALSE BRETHREN unawares brought in who came privily to spy out our LIBERTY which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE, to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour, that the truth of the Gospel might continue with you.... But contrariwise, when they saw that the GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMSISION was committed unto me..." Gal 2:3-7 "Therefore we conclude that aman is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. Is he the God of the JEWS only? is he not also of the GENTILES? Yes of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God which shall justify the CIRCUMCISION by faith, and the UNCIRCUMCISION through faith." Romans 3:28-30 "Behold I Paul say unto you that if ye be CIRCUMCISED, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is CIRCUMCISED, that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever you are that are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, ye are fallen from grace." Gal. 5:2-4 When Paul said that we did not have to obey the law to be saved, He was saying that we do not have to obey the Torah or become Jewish to be saved. We do not need to be circumcised according to the Jewish law to be saved. Paul was not saying that we do not need to repent of our sins (change our mind about breaking the moral law). Both Jew and Gentile are under the moral law. But only the Jews were under the Torah. "And unto the JEWS I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW as under the law, That I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are WITHOUT LAW as without law (being not without LAW TO GOD, but UNDER the LAW TO CHRIST) that I might gain them that are without law" (1 Co. 9:20-21) It is very clear that to be "under the law" is to be Jewish, it is to be under the Torah. But to be "without law" is to be without obligation to the Torah, but to still be under the law to God and under the law of Christ.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 14:45:13 GMT -5
We do not need to obey the Torah to be saved, but we must repent of our sins and live obediently:
“Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14).
"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19:17).
"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven" (Matt 7:21).
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 13, 2009 17:23:27 GMT -5
It's really not that hard to understand, is it? I fear for those who have turned away from this truth.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 22:11:13 GMT -5
I do also. I have been debating Eli on this because he believes that the idea of turning away from sin (repentance) is justification by works of the law. He thinks that the verses, where Paul is really talking about the Torah and circumcision, actually means repentance. Paul is not saying that we do not need to repent of our sins in order to be saved. Paul is saying that we do not need to become Jews, or obey the Torah, or be circumcised to be saved.
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Post by logic on Aug 14, 2009 21:44:31 GMT -5
I have been debating Eli on this because he believes that the idea of turning away from sin (repentance) is justification by works of the law. He thinks that the verses, where Paul is really talking about the Torah and circumcision, actually means repentance. Paul is not saying that we do not need to repent of our sins in order to be saved. Paul is saying that we do not need to become Jews, or obey the Torah, or be circumcised to be saved. Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.; Act_3:19, Acts 17:30, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:20; Mat 3:2, Mat 3:8-9, Mat 4:17, Luke 24:47 What is Scripture saying in this verse, if not commanding men to repent? Second note: At first glance, this sounds contradictory. However, when you understand obedience towards God in contrast to obedience towards the "Torah" or the Law, you will see that our obedience towards God is by the spirit of the law and not the letter. The letter is made of 613 separate commands from the Torah. This is compared to only 1 command of the Spirit, which is love. The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed. The spirit of the law requires impartial goodwill &/or benevolence, and is all expressed in one word--love. The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey. When you understand this, you will see why they call it the "Law of Liberty"! An example, the letter of the law says, "Do not commit murder!" but the spirit of the law says, ‘‘anyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to Judgment.'' (Matthew 5:21-22) The spirit requires that certain conditions to be examined in their proper place. The letter of the law is unyielding and sentences “guilty” all violators of its precepts, without regard to the purpose of the violation. Just as the speed limit is 55 mph and one exceeds the limit, the law says, ''guilty''. The spirit of the law, on the other hand, sees the purpose of the excess speed for an emergency and says, ''keep speeding until purpose is met". Furthermore, when speeding for the purpose of an emergency, the spirit of the law is not broken, but fulfilled. How is repentance different than obeying the letter of the Law? When one repents, they are not turning from sin and towards the law, but very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:21Would this be a good explanation for El to understand?
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Post by jackjackson on Aug 16, 2009 13:28:26 GMT -5
You are correct that justification is not in the Torah, just as the blood of goats and bulls never washed away sin.
Justification can not be earned, ever.
However, you believe that willful sin can result in losing what you never earned, just as I do.
Therefore the difference is the definition of sin.
None of us who believe "once saved always saved" is false doctrine would suggest we can ignore any 1 of 9 of the 10 commandments willfully (leaving out the 4th for now); and expect we should have confidence we will remain saved.
We in Christianity have been quick to suggest that God was unreasonable to give 613 laws, statutes, and judgements through Moses. Remember though that Jesus, the Word of God, gave these to Moses for the people. 10 were given verbally to all mankind, both Jews and the mixed multitude.
Paul tells us Ephesians 3:31 that faith doesn't void the law (nomos or torah) but instead establishes it. We are given the Spirit to allow us the power to obey, not to shield us from obedience. Of the 613 commands of God, instructions, many were specific for the Levitical priesthood, or just for women or children. Others were specific to the land He gave them; so any one person had very few to know and decide in their heart to obey. Deut 30:11 tells them, and us, they are not too hard.
If you take the commands in the NT, you find over 2,000 because Jesus made sure we understood it was now not only what we did, but also what we even thought.
One big problem at the time Jesus came back was "adding to the law" such as found today in the Talmud. The intension was good, that is to build a fence before a person would actually break a command. It bent the torah out of shape (like Ray Comfort teaches the lawyers did to the law, like key that doesn't work anymore) to it was too much a burden. But brought back to a pure form, as Jesus did, was like taking on light yoke. He came hard against those that added to His torah. He magnified it by including our thoughts, but also returned it to honorableness by correcting the additions and demonstrating how to obey it perfectly out love for the Father and for others.
Questions:
1) Is there any part of the Torah which is not good, holy or just as Paul said it was?
2) If it is good, holy, and just, why shouldn't we obey it?
3) For Jesus to be perfectly sinless, did He obey every point of the Torah, establishing as the standard that defines sin?
4) Isn't that 1 John 3:4 says, that sin is the transgression of the Torah?
Letter vs. Spirit of the law:
I have found we have been taught backwards when it comes to how we understand this. The letter of the law is like Bill Clinton saying "I never had sex with that women", because he set the bar defining sex as intercourse. Therefore, by the letter of the law, what she did for him was not sex.
A man walking in the spirit will even avoid any appearance of evil.
The lawyer asked Jesus the greatest commandments, and He answered love God with all you heart, soul, and strength (Deut 6 is what He quoted) and love you neighbor as yourself. The the lawyer, who only wanted to follow the letter of law and no more wanted Jesus to define who was a neighbor so the lawyer could ignore those beyond what Jesus said. The lawyers heart was obviously clouded and his disire to obedience was in fact self seeking. If he had love for others, he wouldn't have asked and would have just helped those he came across.
When we have enmity towards any of God's instructions in the Bible, whether Torah or in Jesus words, or in the epistles; we had better heed Romans 8:6-9 which defines carnality as being at enmity with God because it is carnality with His Torah (law).
The person "under the law" is the person who is doing them, but doesn't want too. To them His laws are grievious. Yet we know that a self test of the truthfulness of our faith is that we love God, and keep God's commandments (1 John 5:3). The writer doesn't distinguish that we only be that way to new sayings of Jesus, but rather to God's commandments.
I have had men try and tell me they live by the Spirit only when it comes to determining sin. But the heart is deceitfully wicked and men can quench the Spirit and fool themselves.
Paul teaches us that the instructions in righteousness are found in all Scripture, not just some newer ones (1 Tim. 3). Have you not read how seducers will come in these last days? We are to live godly, with the instruction found in holy Scriptures that Timothy was taught from his youth. How could these be talking of anything except the Torah which his mother and grandmother taught him, being Jews? Furthermore, there was no NT as Paul was writing, the only thing anyone saw as "Scriptures" was the Torah and prophets.
This Torah and Prophets is "all" Paul preached to persuade men to Jesus (Acts 28).
Paul's apistles were answering concerns during his day, primarily ones regarding the wrong thinking that "justification" came by obedience alone. In his effort to address these questions, a reader not well versed in the Torah, can quickly misunderstand Paul to there own destruction, which is exactly what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16-17.
Those our you who know me know that I could get around the NT pretty well and preach it; but I was humbled by my lack of true understanding in those scriptures when I began a Torah Schedule of weekly portions from the first 5 books of Scriptures. Just as Nehemiah and Ezra set up, Jews have studied Torah in weekly portions. Jesus Himself would have studied Torah each week, and when it says He read and taught in the synogouge, it meant Torah portions, or the accompanying Prophets readings. For Moses wrote of Him, didn't he?
Acts 15:21 can only be understood in that light. They studied through the Torah in weekly portions each year, year in, year out. This week portion was Duet 11:26 through 16:17. Chapter 13 commanded them to avoid false prophets. Even if they made a prediction which came true, and did wonders and signs: if they taught anyone to depart from Torah, they were to be seen as false prophets. Jews saw this as "the test" for all prophets.
They sought ways to find Jesus to be guilty of anything in Deut. 13, and eventually said He was teaching the people to turn away from Torah, which was deserving of death then, and now.
If any of you think that is what Jesus did, you are following the same false report that lead to His death!!!!
If you teach that is what He did, you make Jesus Christ a false prophet. You make Him a false prophet that Israel is obedient to reject, based on Deut Chapter 13 and 18. Your misunderstand of Paul's teaching makes him no better than a false prophet. Teaching yourself that the Torah doesn't have to be followed makes anyine doing so a false prophet according to Scripture. Deut 13 was true, and is still true.
So what a mess Christians have made, inheriting first the lies of our fathers (Jer. 16:19) and preaching a Jesus that did away with Torah. We will never reach a Jew who knows Scriptures with "that false Christ". That preaching made a foothold for Islam to rise up!
Yes, I just blamed Christianity's twisting of Jesus into a "false prophet" for giving a foothold to Satan to introduce "another prophet like unto Moses" (see Deut 18) by the name of Muhammed. If our church father hadn't misreprented Him, because they didn't understand the Torah either, and instead had preach a Jesus that loved the Torah, gave it Himself to Moses, kept it Himself to be sinless, and told us that not one jot or tittle would pass away; maybe all the word would have seen Him (Jesus) as that prophet like Moses.
Sin, my Brothers, is defined still as "transgressing the Torah of God". To do so in ignornace is one thing, to dismiss it because of enmity (Romans 8:6-9) leads to death.
If believers would just embrace the Torah in love, walking out faith as Jesus actually did, we would stand out to the world as a set apart people. He could also bless us beyond anything we have today (Deut 11-12). His laws are not to be grievious, if we love Him!
Trouble is inquity will abound because the love of many will wax cold. Inquity is the Greek word "anomia" which we get the term antinomism, or opposes to God's law.
If it were so sad, I would laugh that we can come against antimonism, while ourselve not being willing to submit our whole live to obey all His commands, not just one we decide to obey. Partiality to His law is sin. We are owed no explanation as to why He has some commands.
Our whole duty is to just love Him and obey Him, period!
Would it kill any of you to stop eating unclean food?
Would it kill any of you to work 6 days?
Would it kill any of you to not work and have holy convocations on His Sabbath (Fri. even to Sat. even)?
Would it hurt to observe new moons?
Would it hurt to observe Passover, First Fruits, Unleaven Bread, Feast of week, Feastival of Trumpets; Day of Attonement; Feast of Tabernalces?
Have you not read in Ezk 40 -48 how Jesus have all these as part of His Kingdom forever?
Are you part of that Kingdom even now?
Will you reject these when He comes? Why then reject them now?
The old paths are being offerred again (Jer. 6:16-19), many believers are repenting and turning back to all the ways Jesus lived. Some the Scriptures say will love the truth and just obey God, others will not. Either way you will fulfil the words of Jeremiah.
Not all who continue to call Him Lord, Lord will enter in. Many will not be following the will of the Father (to live our Torah) and though once justified (saved); their willful sin (Hebrews 10:26-29) will disqualify themselves. losing the sacrifice for sin they once had. They can point to works they did, casting out demons even in His name; but none are commaned in Torah.
To their horror He will say depart from me you lawless (anomia). In Greek that word means "you who did not continue in my Torah".
Those who walk in Torah, do so by His grace and power of His Spirit. Saved not by those works of the law; but don't lose what they were given in continuing in willful sin.
If sin is the breaking of the Torah, which I contend Scripture defines it as so, we only fool ourselves trying to twist it so we can eat Shrimp and ignore His sabbath; rather than repent.
Repenting has always been a call back to a loving obedience to torah, the loving instructions of our Creator for our lives.
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Post by dmatic on Aug 19, 2009 19:06:10 GMT -5
jack wrote:
this is a beautiful sentence brother!
Loving instructions from our Father!
It really is simple isn't it? Love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourself! The Godly definition of Love is the keeping of the commandments!
We love God by obeying His instructions!
We love our neighbor by obeying His instructions as to how we should treat, and think about, our negihbors.
All of God's Torah, His instructions, define Love. Therefore, to dismiss any of them, is to deny His Love. Jesus said it this way: Whosoever breaks even the least of the commandments( from the Law and Prophets, since that is the context of what He was addressing) and teaches others to annul even the least of the commandments...will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven.
Pretty simple. The same law for the "Israelite" and for the Gentile who sojourns with them!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 19, 2009 20:24:16 GMT -5
A person must turn from their sin to be saved. But if it is a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah, than a Gentile does need to obey the Torah to be saved! But this is contrary to Acts, Romans, and Galatians! It is not a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah because a Gentile is not under obligation to the Torah. If eating pork was a sin, or if wearing clothing made of two different materials were a sin, when I was converted under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why didn't he convict me of these things? He convicted me of all my other sins! Why wouldn't he convict me of violating these commands in the Torah?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Aug 20, 2009 10:37:14 GMT -5
A person must turn from their sin to be saved. But if it is a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah, than a Gentile does need to obey the Torah to be saved! But this is contrary to Acts, Romans, and Galatians! It is not a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah because a Gentile is not under obligation to the Torah. If eating pork was a sin, or if wearing clothing made of two different materials were a sin, when I was converted under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why didn't he convict me of these things? He convicted me of all my other sins! Why wouldn't he convict me of violating these commands in the Torah? Some people are convicted by these things. To these things we should not cause our brother to violate his conscience because he that is convicted by these things is weak in the faith. (Teaching the brethren about the truth would not be considered causing him to stumble.) Also --> These men are not convicted by the Holy Spirit. These men are convicted by their own conscience.
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Post by dmatic on Aug 25, 2009 18:43:55 GMT -5
Hi Jesse. You wrote:
Sin, as you know, is defined as the transgression of the Law, (1 John 3:4...I think...)
Do you define sin differently for a Gentile?
The meaning of "being saved", or "salvation", in my understanding is: being made whole.
Whereas sin, causes disease, death and decay; salvation is the restoration into wholeness, implying, without sin. Jesus did come to set His people free from their sin.
When, or if, we sin, it simply shows that we haven't yet beeen "saved" from sin. But, it means that we still hope for the salvation which is ready to be revealed... "For we are saved by hope: but, hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But, if we hope for what we see not, then, do we with patience, wait for it." (Romans 8:24,25)
According to Jesus, he who commits sin is the slave of sin....and the slave does not remain in the house forever, but the son abideth forever...(John 8:34,35) So, we wait for adoption as sons.
God is leading us to repentance (Rom. 2:4) Godly sorrow leadeth to repentance (2 Cor. 7:10) This godly sorrow comes from God, of course. it does not come from the will of man, but from the will of God Who desires all to come to repentance and knowledge of the truth..(2 Peter 3:9)_
Now, what is this repentance? It includes a change of mind. Certainly, it means a change from sinning...to...not sinning. But, it would appear that, since actions proceed from thoughts, our thoughts need to change first, if we are ever to repent from sin.
God defines "sin" by His Law. Men, do not define it....though they try. Men have sought to dismiss God's Law for millenia, and it is no different today. I must say that I am surprised that you seem to have joined them, Jesse. Men have "changed His Law, and annulled it, and teach that their students don't need to keep God's commandments. Particularly if they do not agree with God's righteous instructions! They have made God's commands of none effect as they teach, instead, the commandments of men! Their hearts are far from God, yet...and their worship is in vain.
I'm very curious if you teach what Jesus taught. He said: "Whosoever breaks or transgresses, even the least of the commandments of God, (as given through Moses and the Prophets) and teaches men to break them, he would be called least in the kingdom of heaven!"
Even the very least of the commandments of God is to be kept and taught to others to keep, in my understanding.
Remember, that one law is given both for the "Israelite" and the "Gentile". One law. Not two, as you seem to insist. One for the "Jew" and another for the Gentile.
To teach others that they need not keep God's commandments is, in my opinion, very dangerous....and might I say, unscriptural, and therefore, false teaching.
Please understand that I am not suggesting that people obey what the "Jews" taught...but I am saying that we should obey what God teaches. Obviously, Jesus had much to say against the false teachers of His day! I am not a "Judaizer". I teach obedience to God's commandments. Am I wrong?
dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 25, 2009 22:41:50 GMT -5
For Nineveh to be saved, they needed to turn from their sins. Yet, they were not circumcised according to the law of Moses. That is because they were not under the law of Moses. They were under the law which God had given them, the moral law.
The Gentiles are under the moral law, but they are not under all of the laws of Judeaism. Gentiles are not under obligation to the Jewish Torah.
"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law as under the law, that i might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law." 1 Cor. 9:20-21
The Gentiles are without the law of Moses, they are without the Torah. But they are not without law to God nor are they without the law to Christ. What God has spoke to all nations, and what God has spoken through Christ, is for all people. But what God spoke to Moses was only for the Jews.
Romans 2:14-15 also teaches that the Gentiles are without law (without the Torah) but they are not without the moral law (they have a conscience).
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" Galatians 2:14-15
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Post by dmatic on Aug 27, 2009 13:24:43 GMT -5
Hi Jesse.
I may have time to respond only to this paragraph written by you:
But what God spoke to Moses was only for the Jews?
I would be interested to find out what you mean by "moral law", which you mention in other paragraphs of your response, but God revealed through Moses that homosexuality was a sin, as was beastiality, as was witchcraft...for examples.
I don't remember Jesus speaking about these sins. So, you suggest that these, as the sins of incest or rape, are OK as long as you're not Jewish?
When God delivered the Israelites from Egypt, a multitude of "strangers" or "aliens" came out with them. A Mixed Multitude, I think it was called. Anyway, these, who had joined themselves to "God's People" were instructed to live by the same law as the Israelites! One law for the Alien as for the "native" born! The same insturctions for righteous living for all the people who were within the "kingdom".
This is the same today. We are all being instructed to live by the rules of the KING. There is no partiality with God. It is a blessing to live according to His righteous decrees and ordinances and laws! His Laws reveal His mind and will.
Your post made some declarative statements that, I'm not sure can be backed up by proper interpretation of scripture. I'll try to print them and disect them later....Lord willing, but I need to go for now.
It is understandable why you hold to your view since it is prevalent within "Christian" circles, but I urge you to hang in there with me. If I cannot prove to you, with the help of our loving Heavenly Father's Spirit, that His word is profitable for all of us, regardless of our geneology, for doctrine, for reproof, for training in righteousness, and for correction, then I will "let it go".
OK?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by logic on Aug 27, 2009 13:58:04 GMT -5
Hi Jesse. I may have time to respond only to this paragraph written by you:But what God spoke to Moses was only for the Jews? Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the lawSome of Moses' law consists of the moral law which is written on all mankind's heart (Rom 1:19-20; 2:15), however, the Gentiles were never condemned for not keeping the 4th commandment among others.
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Post by dmatic on Aug 27, 2009 17:11:14 GMT -5
logic,
Are you suggesting it a good thing to perish, as long as one does it "without law"?
May I ask what you think the definition of "Gentile" is?
Thanks, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Aug 27, 2009 17:28:27 GMT -5
hi logic....
since you're entering this conversation again, I want to respond to your post where you wrote:
the motivation for our obedience is LOVE.
In fact, love for God is the keeping of His commandments.
Many think as you do, and find themselves in disobedience to both the letter and the spirit of the Law. It was Solomon's mistake too, where he thought he could "keep the spirit of the law", while giving himself permission to violate the letter of it.
It didn't work.
The kingdom was divided because of his non-respect for the Law of God. He, apparently, loved horses, women, gold and silver, more than he had respect for the letter of God's law, and it caused his heart to stray, which is why God gave the "letter" in the first place.
God had said that a king should not multiply horses, wives or riches because it would cause his heart to stray.
Knowing this, Solomon thought he could keep his heart pure toward God. He knew that the intent of the letter of the law, the prohibition from multiplying these things, revealed the spirit of the law, which was to keep the king's heart from departing from YHWH. So, he thought that he could disobey the letter of the law, since he knew the dangers and mistakenly thought he could keep the spirit of the law, by remaining faithful to God. But, history reveals, that even the wisest man, besides Y'Shua, could not keep the spirit of the law without keeping the letter too!
This should show us, who aren't as wise as Solomon, that we should not presume to dismiss or annul God's instructions, and pretend that we are really loving God and obeying the number one command, when we give ourselves permission to violate His Law.
Obeying God's law does lead to liberty! It is freedom from Sin! It is Life! Through faith we establish the Law! God's law is not grievous, nor burdensome! It is wise not to pretend to be smarter than God! He knows what He is talking about! Many have been deceived by dismissing His righteous commandments as unneccessary!
Hope this helps.....dmatic
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Post by logic on Aug 27, 2009 17:35:46 GMT -5
logic, Are you suggesting it a good thing to perish, as long as one does it "without law" To perish is to die and go to hell; so, no, that is not what I am suggesting. My point was that tall mankind are judged, even when they have not the law of the Jews. How could one sin if they don't have the law of the sin Gentiles? That which they are judged by is their own law of conscience. I might be off topic from misunderstanding. It ain't what I think, it is what it is no matter what I think it is defined as. Who ever is not Jewish is a Gentile.
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Post by dmatic on Aug 28, 2009 13:38:53 GMT -5
logic, you answered the question thusly:
Is a benjaminite, then, a Gentile?
How about a Danite?
Or a Nepthalite?
Y'Shua (Jesus) is King of the Jews.....those who follow Him, are by defintion, Jews.....Correct?
dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Aug 28, 2009 13:40:51 GMT -5
Jesse, you wrote:
May I ask you how you know that the Ninivites who were saved were not circumcised according to the law of Moses?
I've tried to find that out, but couldn't. Presumably, you have access to better history books than I.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Aug 29, 2009 14:51:47 GMT -5
Apparently Jesse is ministering...but i have a couple moments now to comment further about his statement that the Ninevites weren't circumcised according to the law of moses. One of my first questions would be to ask Jesse how he would recommend they repent for not being circumcised on the eighth day of their lives?
"Moses' Law" mentions circumcision on the eighth day for the males born in "Israel"....Lev. 12:3
The other instruction from "Moses" is in Deuteronomy where God promises to circumcise the hearts...
This, the circumcising of the Ninivite hearts IS what God did for the Ninevites, therefore "saving them" from the "destruction" He had prophesied. So, they were in accord with the law of Moses!
Actually, the sign of circumcision was/is according to the Abrahamic Covenant. Moses wasn't even alive yet!
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Sept 1, 2009 11:12:24 GMT -5
Jesse....I'll ask again:
May I ask you how you know that the Ninivites who were saved were not circumcised according to the law of Moses?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Sept 8, 2009 10:46:22 GMT -5
logic, you answered the question thusly: Is a benjaminite, then, a Gentile? How about a Danite? Or a Nepthalite? Y'Shua (Jesus) is King of the Jews.....those who follow Him, are by defintion, Jews.....Correct? dmatic Logic, have you, too, tired of this discussion? Or do you not have an answer? Peace, dmatic
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Post by logic on Sept 8, 2009 11:17:37 GMT -5
logic, you answered the question thusly: Is a benjaminite, then, a Gentile? How about a Danite? Or a Nepthalite? Y'Shua (Jesus) is King of the Jews.....those who follow Him, are by defintion, Jews.....Correct? dmatic Logic, have you, too, tired of this discussion? Or do you not have an answer? Peace, dmatic tired of this discussion
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Post by dmatic on Sept 8, 2009 16:19:08 GMT -5
OK....thanks for playing....
Peace, dmatic
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Post by dmatic on Sept 10, 2009 13:42:00 GMT -5
Jesse....you started this thread. Are you done with it? Or would you care to answer my questions previously typed?
Thanks, dmatic
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Sept 14, 2009 17:20:39 GMT -5
logic, you answered the question thusly: Is a benjaminite, then, a Gentile? How about a Danite? Or a Nepthalite? Y'Shua (Jesus) is King of the Jews.....those who follow Him, are by defintion, Jews.....Correct? dmatic No they are Christians. (Isaiah 62:2)
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Post by dmatic on Sept 16, 2009 14:27:23 GMT -5
I'll look up the reference when I get to my Bible.....but I'm wondering, then, who you think "Gentiles" are?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by debonnaire on Sept 17, 2009 15:20:39 GMT -5
hi dmatic,
gentiles are well described py Paul in Ephesians 2 verses 11 & 12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Sept 18, 2009 8:25:55 GMT -5
I'll look up the reference when I get to my Bible.....but I'm wondering, then, who you think "Gentiles" are? Peace, dmatic There is neither Jew or Greek (gentile) in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28,29
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Post by dmatic on Sept 21, 2009 15:08:22 GMT -5
I agree with both of you! This is why Jesse's comment here: is wrong!
The Torah is for all!
Praise God!
dmatic
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Sept 21, 2009 16:38:23 GMT -5
The Torah is for all! Praise God! dmatic The Bible says: "Jehovah made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with US, even US, who are all of US here alive this day." Deuteronomy 5:3Show me just one time where Abraham, Noah, or Adam kept the Sabbath.
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