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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 6, 2009 22:20:51 GMT -5
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 23, 2009 14:47:19 GMT -5
He is as ridiculous as you are.
He contradicts the Bible he claims to believe.
Weak video.
Reminds me of Acts 20:26-27
Cults like yours only share part of the counsel of God not the whole thing.
Anyhow since both of you have agenda's (your church's) you do not follow scriptures so it is futile to try to discuss anything with you.
You have committed yourself to a belief system and not the truth.
How sad.
John 8:47
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 23, 2009 22:58:57 GMT -5
He is as ridiculous as you are. He contradicts the Bible he claims to believe. Weak video. Reminds me of Acts 20:26-27 Cults like yours only share part of the counsel of God not the whole thing. Anyhow since both of you have agenda's (your church's) you do not follow scriptures so it is futile to try to discuss anything with you. You have committed yourself to a belief system and not the truth. How sad. John 8:47 So, he and I are wrong and you don't care to explain. I bet the Holy Spirit made you say that.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 24, 2009 16:58:19 GMT -5
You are both right about some things.
You are Acts 20:26-27. You declare part of the counsel of God because that part fits your belief system. You reject and explain away the parts that do not.
I am sorry you are a betting man. Real Christians do not gamble. The Holy Ghost will lead you into the truth though if you will listen (John 16:13).
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 26, 2009 12:28:22 GMT -5
You are both right about some things. You are Acts 20:26-27. You declare part of the counsel of God because that part fits your belief system. You reject and explain away the parts that do not. I am sorry you are a betting man. Real Christians do not gamble. The Holy Ghost will lead you into the truth though if you will listen (John 16:13). I'm waiting to hear which part of the counsel of God I'm not declaring.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 27, 2009 2:05:29 GMT -5
Watch the video and keep reading the Bible and you may find out.
The only thing is in order to find out which parts you do not declare you will have to stop reading what you believe and begin to believe what you read.
This you are unwilling to do at this time because you are far too committed to your belief system. You will lose the good standing with others in your belief system (cult).
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 27, 2009 17:07:02 GMT -5
I believe what the Bible says and you can't show me one part of the Bible that I don't believe. I wish I could say the same for you.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 27, 2009 23:19:12 GMT -5
You are exactly right! I can't show you that is why I don't even bother. You are blinded by your unswerving commitment to your belief system in your cult because of the good standing it puts you in with others and the religious pride it gives you. You are unwilling to even question or examine it honesty.
John 9:41
Pride blinds.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 28, 2009 20:51:22 GMT -5
You are exactly right! I can't show you that is why I don't even bother. You are blinded by your unswerving commitment to your belief system in your cult because of the good standing it puts you in with others and the religious pride it gives you. You are unwilling to even question or examine it honesty. John 9:41 Pride blinds. I'm glad that my belief system is the Bible and the Bible alone. Apparently my belief system does not put me in good standing with others. I've questioned and examined what I've believed. If I'm wrong then show me what I missed.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 28, 2009 22:13:37 GMT -5
Like you said before I cannot.
The same as Jesus could not show the Sadducees.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 9:11:29 GMT -5
Like you said before I cannot. The same as Jesus could not show the Sadducees. You "cannot" because you don't have a single Bible verse.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 30, 2009 12:20:56 GMT -5
You are right.
There is not a single Bible verse I can show you because you are committed to a belief system that affords you great respect among your peers and you are unwilling to give that up in order to seek the whole counsel of God.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 30, 2009 14:12:51 GMT -5
Okay,
I watched the video. A couple of questions:
1. Is the point supposed to be that the Holy Spirit ONLY communicates to us through the Scriptures?
2. What group are you in the Micah is convinced is a cult?
Steve
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 15:31:40 GMT -5
Okay, I watched the video. A couple of questions: 1. Is the point supposed to be that the Holy Spirit ONLY communicates to us through the Scriptures? 2. What group are you in the Micah is convinced is a cult? Steve There were many points that he made but yes, the Holy SPirit only communicates to us through the scriptures. Micah is convinced that the church of Christ is a cult. I'd hate to tell Jesus that.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 15:35:00 GMT -5
You are right. There is not a single Bible verse I can show you because you are committed to a belief system that affords you great respect among your peers and you are unwilling to give that up in order to seek the whole counsel of God. I'm committed to Jesus' belief system. If I'm not, show Steve and I.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 30, 2009 15:50:23 GMT -5
Jonathan,
Do you agree that in Scripture the Holy Spirit is presented as communicating in a variety of ways and not only through Scripture?
If you do agree with this could you tell me why and when did that change?
Also, I'm going to post this same question to Ben Bailey on Youtube.
Thanks,
Steve
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 18:15:15 GMT -5
Jonathan, Do you agree that in Scripture the Holy Spirit is presented as communicating in a variety of ways and not only through Scripture? If you do agree with this could you tell me why and when did that change? Also, I'm going to post this same question to Ben Bailey on Youtube. Thanks, Steve Thanks for giving me the opportunity to answer your question. Yes, the Holy Spirit spoke in times past. There are many things we can say about these particular instances such as: They were limited to particular people for particular purposes. It was never common in any sort of modern sense. In times past he spoke. Furthermore, we must realize that there were purposes behind the Holy Spirit speaking to individuals. Simply put there's no longer any purpose in the Holy Spirit miraculously speaking to individuals today because the revelation has been completed and the scriptures are able to furnish a man unto every good work. We should thank God for the cessation of miraculous revelation. If he hadn't done so, we'd be subject to anyone who came along claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. To me, it's amazing to see so many people of different faiths claiming to have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit (audibly, emotionally, illuminating). The Pentecostals claim to have divine super powers, the Mormons say that God spoke to Joseph smith and gave them some golden dinner plates, the Calvinist claim that the Holy Spirit tells them that their saved (otherwise they have no security in their salvation), the Catholics claim that the Holy Spirit whispers into the Pope's ear, etc. These are just a few reasons, we can discuss this further if you'd like.
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Post by Jessicker on Dec 30, 2009 18:40:00 GMT -5
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to answer your question. Yes, the Holy Spirit spoke in times past. There are many things we can say about these particular instances such as: They were limited to particular people for particular purposes. Biblical support for this statement? Edit (12/30/09 4:13pm Pacific Time): I mean to ask, what is your Biblical support to show that there are no longer any more "particular people" the Holy Spirit needs to speak to for "particular purposes"? Who are these "particular people" the Holy Spirit is limited to speaking with? What are the qualifications to be spoken to by the Holy Spirit? (end edit) It was never common in any sort of modern sense. Biblical support for this statement? Also, what does "any sort of modern sense" mean? Simply put there's no longer any purpose in the Holy Spirit miraculously speaking to individuals today because the revelation has been completed and the scriptures are able to furnish a man unto every good work. Biblical support for this statement? We should thank God for the cessation of miraculous revelation. If he hadn't done so, we'd be subject to anyone who came along claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. Prior to your "completion of the revelation", there were people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) We are told to try the spirits, not that the Spirit of God would simply stop speaking. To me, it's amazing to see so many people of different faiths claiming to have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit (audibly, emotionally, illuminating). The Pentecostals claim to have divine super powers, the Mormons say that God spoke to Joseph smith and gave them some golden dinner plates, the Calvinist claim that the Holy Spirit tells them that their saved (otherwise they have no security in their salvation), the Catholics claim that the Holy Spirit whispers into the Pope's ear, etc. It amazes me sometimes too. So many false prophets in this world.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 30, 2009 19:05:06 GMT -5
Jonathan, Let me narrow in on one section of your last response. You wrote, Furthermore, we must realize that there were purposes behind the Holy Spirit speaking to individuals. Simply put there's no longer any purpose in the Holy Spirit miraculously speaking to individuals today because the revelation has been completed and the scriptures are able to furnish a man unto every good work. I'll base my question on Acts 6:29 and Acts 10:19. The context of Acts 6:29 is Philip on the road near the Ethiopian eunuch. It reads, "And the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go over and join this chariot.'" As you know Philip preaches the gospel to the eunuch and he gets saved. Acts 10:19 is where Peter is at Cornelius' house contemplating the vision he just had. It reads, "And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, 'Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.'" Peter goes with them and Cornelius' and his household get saved. In both of these cases it was essential that the evangelists (Philip and Peter) speak to those to whom they spoke at that specific time. Both of these episodes occurred after Jesus had given the great commission. It wasn't enough to have the revelation that they should go into all the world and preach to all creation. In these instances they needed specific guidance to speak to these specific people at this specific time. That need has not ceased. Wouldn't you agree? Steve
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 30, 2009 21:23:57 GMT -5
Jonathan,
Are you familiar with Church of Christ Scholar Dr. Jack Cottrell?
Steve
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 22:46:48 GMT -5
Jonathan, Are you familiar with Church of Christ Scholar Dr. Jack Cottrell? Steve Steve, In both of these cases it was essential that the evangelists (Philip and Peter) speak to those to whom they spoke at that specific time. Both of these episodes occurred after Jesus had given the great commission. It wasn't enough to have the revelation that they should go into all the world and preach to all creation. In these instances they needed specific guidance to speak to these specific people at this specific time. That need has not ceased. Wouldn't you agree?That is an excellent question which a lot of people ask me. I believe that these scenarios are hardly comparable to any scenario today. Furthermore, the command to preach the gospel to all of creation was given to the apostles which was fulfilled by 70 A.D. “If indeed you continue in faith, grounded and stead fast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I Paul, became a minister.” (Christians are however, to preach the Gospel. This is made evident by many other verses. ) Both of these individuals received specific commands directly from God. If God ever gave you the audible and specific command to go to Jim Bob in Iraq and preach the Gospel to him, I believe God would supply a way for you to do so (even a miraculous way). This is to presuppose that God will actually give you an audible and specific command of this nature. If I left something out please respond. Dr. Jack Cottrell is a scholar indeed. Unfortunately, he's a scholar for a faction named the “Christian Church.” Here's a link about the so-called “Christian Church.” www.bible.ca/cr-Disciples-C.htmJonathan
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 30, 2009 22:52:20 GMT -5
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to answer your question. Yes, the Holy Spirit spoke in times past. There are many things we can say about these particular instances such as: They were limited to particular people for particular purposes. Biblical support for this statement? Edit (12/30/09 4:13pm Pacific Time): I mean to ask, what is your Biblical support to show that there are no longer any more "particular people" the Holy Spirit needs to speak to for "particular purposes"? Who are these "particular people" the Holy Spirit is limited to speaking with? What are the qualifications to be spoken to by the Holy Spirit? (end edit) Biblical support for this statement? Also, what does "any sort of modern sense" mean? Biblical support for this statement? Prior to your "completion of the revelation", there were people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) We are told to try the spirits, not that the Spirit of God would simply stop speaking. To me, it's amazing to see so many people of different faiths claiming to have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit (audibly, emotionally, illuminating). The Pentecostals claim to have divine super powers, the Mormons say that God spoke to Joseph smith and gave them some golden dinner plates, the Calvinist claim that the Holy Spirit tells them that their saved (otherwise they have no security in their salvation), the Catholics claim that the Holy Spirit whispers into the Pope's ear, etc. It amazes me sometimes too. So many false prophets in this world. Jessicker We learn through the scriptures that in times past the Holy Spirit spoke. This is evident through the continual use of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord...” Modern views of the Holy Spirit often include the Spirit guiding an individual through their emotions. There's no longer any need for the Holy Spirit to audibly speak to an individual today because the scriptures are all sufficient in guiding one in the ways of righteousness. “ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16,17 1 John 4:1 is not talking about testing some sort of demonic spirits. 1 John 4:1 is talking about testing the spirits of men. This is made evident by the following verse “Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God...” This passage is clearly telling us to test the false prophets. This is not done by waiting for the Holy Spirits illumination but instead the Apostle John wrote this letter so that they may be able to keep themselves from erring from the faith. “ ... These things we write that your joy may be full...” 1 John 1:4 “ ... Children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin...” 1 John 2:1 “ ... These things I have written to you... that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13 Prior to the completed revelation of God, miraculous gifts were given to build the church up. Men were led by the Holy Spirit through miraculous revelations: Tongues, Prophecy, Knowledge, etc. The revelation has been completed and thus the miraculous revelations have ceased: “ ...Whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away...” 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Thanks for watching the video, Jonathan
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 30, 2009 23:39:47 GMT -5
Jonathan believes knowledge has ceased.
Romans 8:14-For as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:16-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
1 John 5:10-He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself.
What is the witness of the Spirit?
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 30, 2009 23:57:13 GMT -5
Jonathan, What's the difference doctrinally between the "Christian Church" and the "Church of Christ"? I have Dr. Cottrell's theology book called "The Faith Once for All" and I was looking through it and it seems your views and his views are pretty similar. Aside from the specific issue of the Holy Spirit speaking you and Ben Bailey also mention the cessation of the miraculous gifts. You state that these were given to build the church up. What about the fact that Jesus sometimes healed because he was moved by compassion ? For instance Matt 14:14 says, "When he went ashore he saw a great crowd, and he had compassion on them and healed their sick." You don't believe Jesus' compassion has ceased because the New Testament is closed do you?
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Post by Jessicker on Dec 31, 2009 0:05:19 GMT -5
Jessicker We learn through the scriptures that in times past the Holy Spirit spoke. This is evident through the continual use of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord...” Modern views of the Holy Spirit often include the Spirit guiding an individual through their emotions. I agree with you on the point that I don't think the Holy Spirit leads people through emotion. Emotion is a tricky thing. Emotions are caused by a belief. If I believe death is a bad, painful thing, I will be sad when someone dies and scared of death myself. These two emotions: sadness and fear came from a belief I had. If I believe death leads to the Judgment and that God's judgment is good and right, death will evoke a different emotion from me. If people just blindly trust an emotion without examining the underlying belief, they can be easily led astray. There's no longer any need for the Holy Spirit to audibly speak to an individual today because the scriptures are all sufficient in guiding one in the ways of righteousness. “ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16,17 Scripture, if read with an open, sincere heart, contains the information one needs for salvation and to walk in the light, but sometimes we need a little guidance in day-to-day things. For example, knowing just what to say to someone in spiritual distress to help them through. The Bible seems to make it pretty clear that we also need the Holy Spirit to help guide us. Why else would God have sent the Holy Spirit to us? How do you explain away that the Bible says all sons of God have the Holy Spirit inside them and we are the temples of the Holy Spirit? “ ... These things we write that your joy may be full...” 1 John 1:4 “ ... Children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin...” 1 John 2:1 “ ... These things I have written to you... that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13 I must've missed something because but I don't get your point here, sorry. You're emphasizing that letters were written? I don't get it...speeches are spoken and letters are written... Prior to the completed revelation of God, miraculous gifts were given to build the church up. Men were led by the Holy Spirit through miraculous revelations: Tongues, Prophecy, Knowledge, etc. The revelation has been completed and thus the miraculous revelations have ceased: “ ...Whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away...” 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about charity (love). Everything else will fail without love. That's why your quote actually starts out with "Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they will fail...". If someone tries to speak in tongues, prophesy, or have knowledge of this gospel without also having love, they will "become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" (1 Corithians 13:1) and yes, these gifts will fail and pass away from them. When I read it in context, it doesn't appear to say that "The revelation has been completed and thus the miraculous revelations have ceased".
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 9:57:05 GMT -5
Micah wrote:
"Jonathan believes knowledge has ceased.
Romans 8:14-For as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:16-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
1 John 5:10-He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself.
What is the witness of the Spirit? "
Yes, Miraculously given knowledge has ceased.
Romans 8:14 – The question is not whether or not we are led by the spirit but instead how are we led by the Spirit?
Romans 8:16 - Once again, it is not whether or not the Spirit bears witness with our spirit but instead how does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit?
The “witness” to which 1 John 5:10 refers to is found in verse 6 “This is He who came by water and blood – Jeuss Christ; not only by water, but by water and by blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness because the Spirit is truth.”
The Spirit bore witness in the 1st century through various miracles. He now bears witness through his completed revelation: The preaching of the Gospel.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 10:02:23 GMT -5
Hey Steve,
You asked: “What's the difference doctrinally between the "Christian Church" and the "Church of Christ"? I have Dr. Cottrell's theology book called "The Faith Once for All" and I was looking through it and it seems your views and his views are pretty similar.”
I will admit that the “Christian Church” denomination teaches a lot of truth. However, they are a denomination and that is a work of the flesh which is condemned numerous times throughout the scriptures. Christians are commanded to not have fellowship with these individuals in Romans 16:17 (...Mark them who cause division and have no fellowship with them...) They have also progressively erred further and further from the faith. Many now allow women preachers and elders. Some, have even begun to deny that water baptism is for the remission of sin. They've also chosen to add mechanical musical instruments to their worship services.
The “Christian Church” is a sad progression of apostasy.
To answer your other question: "You don't believe Jesus' compassion has ceased because the New Testament is closed do you?"
I believe Jesus has compassion on many people, healing them through natural means today. If we are to say that God still miraculously heals men through other men, out of compassion alone, then we must prove this with the scriptures. I'm inclined to believe that this cannot be affirmed in the scriptures.
After Jesus left this earth, he gave miraculous abilities to his Apostles. The Apostles were able to miraculously heal men in order to affirm that their testimony was from God.
“God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will.” Hebrews 2:4
“These signs will follow those who believe... And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.” Mark 16:17-20
Jesus' compassion has not ceased but Jesus is no longer present on this earth and no precedent has ever been made of the Apostles healing an individual solely out of compassion.
Take care,
Jon
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 10:08:07 GMT -5
Jessicker,
You wrote:
"Scripture, if read with an open, sincere heart, contains the information one needs for salvation and to walk in the light, but sometimes we need a little guidance in day-to-day things. For example, knowing just what to say to someone in spiritual distress to help them through. The Bible seems to make it pretty clear that we also need the Holy Spirit to help guide us. Why else would God have sent the Holy Spirit to us? How do you explain away that the Bible says all sons of God have the Holy Spirit inside them and we are the temples of the Holy Spirit?"
I believe that the scriptures contain all of the guidance that we need in “day-to-day things.”
If I don't know what to say to someone in spiritual distress, it is only because I have not read what the Bible says about comforting those who are spiritually distressed.
The Bible makes it very clear that the Holy Spirit guides us through his counsel and not our imaginations.
“You will guide me with your counsel...” Psalm 73:6
“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” 2 Corinthians 10:5
I haven't “explained away” the fact that the Bible speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe it's a grave mistake to interpret the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit possession and inspiration.
You also wrote:
“ 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about charity (love). Everything else will fail without love. That's why your quote actually starts out with "Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they will fail...". If someone tries to speak in tongues, prophesy, or have knowledge of this gospel without also having love, they will "become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" (1 Corithians 13:1) and yes, these gifts will fail and pass away from them."
When I read it in context, it doesn't appear to say that "The revelation has been completed and thus the miraculous revelations have ceased".
Yes, 1 Corinthians 13 talks about love. The passage suggests that at some point the gifts of miraculous knowledge, tongues, and prophecy will cease and when those three things cease; faith hope and love will remain. The greatest of these is love.
“When that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” 1 Corinthians 13:10
The miraculous gifts were in part. That is, they were all parts working together to reveal the whole, and perfect, revelation of God.
Notice that this passage does not say “He” who is perfect, but “that” which is perfect.
Furthermore, after the cessation of these gifts, faith hope and love shall remain. That which is perfect is not Jesus because when Jesus returns there will no longer be any faith and hope because faith and hope that is seen is not faith and hope at all.
The necessary inference of this passage is that at the completion of God's revelation, miraculous gifts will cease.
Thanks,
Jon
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 31, 2009 10:50:16 GMT -5
Oh so sinners who believe the Bible is the Word of God also have the witness of the Spirit.
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Post by Jessicker on Dec 31, 2009 11:03:31 GMT -5
I haven't “explained away” the fact that the Bible speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe it's a grave mistake to interpret the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit possession and inspiration. How do you interpret the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Yes, 1 Corinthians 13 talks about love. The passage suggests that at some point the gifts of miraculous knowledge, tongues, and prophecy will cease and when those three things cease; faith hope and love will remain. The greatest of these is love. Okay. I see no argument here. We're saying the same thing. The only difference is you believe that point has already come. I believe there is still faith, hope, and love in this world; therefore, gifts from God still exist. “When that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” 1 Corinthians 13:10The miraculous gifts were in part. That is, they were all parts working together to reveal the whole, and perfect, revelation of God. I read it differently. If you attempt to prophesy, speak in tongues, etc without love, it is only in part and Paul likens it to a child's understanding or looking through dark glass. Without love, we cannot use God's gifts properly because we are not complete and do not have the necessary understanding. If Paul wanted to point out these gifts from God will stop, why didn't he do it in 1 Corinthians 12? That seems like the perfect time to bring up something like that, yet he didn't. He went on to talk about those gifts and the necessity of love being a part of them.
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