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Post by john316 on May 13, 2010 17:43:42 GMT -5
So I have a question that is kinda controversial and need your opinion on this one. It's evident that no denomination will have a perfect doctrine in this lifetime. And you have denominations like Anglicanism which MAY BE in error but you've have great saints come out of there like JC Ryle. IMO I believe denominations like JWs, Mormons, Unitarirans, Oneness Pentacostals, Christaldephians are worhip a different Jesus that cannot save. Can the same be said about ALL CATHOLICS AND ALL ORTHODOX Christians. Is it possible for people who are part of those denominations have a personal relationship with the Savior. Just need to know your opinions.
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Post by benjoseph on May 14, 2010 17:48:56 GMT -5
So I have a question that is kinda controversial and need your opinion on this one. It's evident that no denomination will have a perfect doctrine in this lifetime. And you have denominations like Anglicanism which MAY BE in error but you've have great saints come out of there like JC Ryle. IMO I believe denominations like JWs, Mormons, Unitarirans, Oneness Pentacostals, Christaldephians are worhip a different Jesus that cannot save. Can the same be said about ALL CATHOLICS AND ALL ORTHODOX Christians. Is it possible for people who are part of those denominations have a personal relationship with the Savior. Just need to know your opinions. In my opinion, you could be in pretty much any denomination and still know Jesus. I figure it would depend on how much knowledge you have of their doctrines and what you've been taught about the scripture. There's only one Jesus Christ and people are taught a lot of different things about him. I think God is still able to work through a lot of that. What really matters in my opinion is if you love Jesus and obey him or not. I don't think we'll be graded on all our doctrinal knowledge.
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Post by Jessicker on May 15, 2010 11:11:59 GMT -5
I was raised Catholic, but I was raised in a Catholic church in a very liberal town and they didn't teach us the doctrine very much. From an early age, though, God would reveal things to me and point out practices in the church that weren't right. He taught me a lot while I was in that denomination, despite all the unbiblical doctrine of the Catholic church....INCLUDING not to get confirmed....but I did anyway because I was young and too afraid of upsetting my Dad. When I moved out of the house to go to college, I started going to another Catholic church. They taught more doctrine. I started questioning my priest and he bought me a book called "The Catholic Answer Bible" that attempts to answer questions about their doctrine. This book sealed the deal. I was OUT. So...I think it is possible for there to be saved people in any denomination, but if they are honest in their search for truth, God will show them the flaws in their religion and in the particular case of the Catholic religion (because that's the only one I can speak knowledgeably about), the flaws will be too numerous and someone who is being honest will not want to be corrupted by them anymore and leave. I find it pretty easy to believe there are saints in just about any Christian denomination, but I find it really hard to believe that someone could be saved and STAY in a false religion for an extended period of time. This is all my personal opinion, of course.
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Post by john316 on May 15, 2010 12:50:16 GMT -5
What I am trying to say is that it's plausible to say all anti Trinitarians believe is a false god. But can the same be said about Catholics and Orthodox when they affirm the Trinity, heaven, hell, etc. Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy all fall within mainstream Christianity.
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Post by Jessicker on May 15, 2010 13:47:08 GMT -5
Are you trying to ask which denominations can be considered true Christianity? None of them. God's church, Christ's bride is made up of all His followers and is not divided. Christianity does not consist of denominations; it simply consists of all individual believers, so I don't think anyone can say a certain denomination is not part of the Body of Christ because there may be someone in there who is a believer and therefore part of the Body of Christ. What is usually considered "Christianity" (Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentacostals, etc) is a man-defined concept and not relevant in the Kingdom of God.
If you're asking if the Catholic and Orthodox religions teach a false God or a false Christ, then in my personal opinion, yes. Isn't anyone who misrepresents the teachings of the Bible worshiping someone or something other than the God of the Bible?
Sorry if I wasn't clear on your exact question.
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Post by benjoseph on May 16, 2010 12:49:59 GMT -5
Interesting. I thought I was doing the right thing when I went through confirmation at 13.
Now, I don't consider myself Trinitarian but I don't think I believe in a false God. I don't know what to think about Arianism, Omnipresence, and the Holy Spirit. So I can't commit to Trinitarianism.
I wish the church was not so divided as it is. I think I should pray more asking God to help us have unity.
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Post by john316 on May 17, 2010 15:07:17 GMT -5
Denying PERSON and WORK of Christ you deny the crux of the holy faith. Doctrine matters that's why we have so many denominations. It's fairly understandable that the truth divides. But it reality it's not the truth that divides it's those who oppose it.
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Post by john316 on May 17, 2010 15:10:39 GMT -5
So I am not a big fan of antiTrinitarians, though I love them and want them to believe in JESUS CHRIST, the only begotten Son of God, the Word of God, God manifested in the flesh. Born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, suffered for our sins, died and was buried, rose again on the third day and sends His Holy Spirit to lead and guide true believers and UNITE the pilgrim church here on earth
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Post by benjoseph on May 18, 2010 14:26:24 GMT -5
By the way, Jessicker, I didn't mean that comment about my confirmation in a disagreeable sense. I really thought it was interesting how we had two different experiences with that. John316, Denying PERSON and WORK of Christ you deny the crux of the holy faith. Did you mean me? I don't think I deny anything true about Jesus or what he did. I believe in him. I guess I can believe that as long as you don't mean the God of Jesus, who he called "the only true God". But I don't object to calling God's son "God" as long as he is not confused with the Father. I believe all of that too. I don't mean to turn your thread into a Trinitarian debate or anything. I think it all really depends on the person and not the denomination like Jessicker was saying. Though some denominations may be harder to find real saints in if their doctrines are extremely bad or if their practices are bad.
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Post by Brother. Ross on May 22, 2010 12:27:46 GMT -5
Catholics clearly are not part of the Body; Exodus 20:4,5; John 3:3; 1Tim 2:5; Prov 28:13. Peter even affirms this; Acts 4:12
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Post by john316 on May 22, 2010 12:40:44 GMT -5
By the way, Jessicker, I didn't mean that comment about my confirmation in a disagreeable sense. I really thought it was interesting how we had two different experiences with that. John316, Denying PERSON and WORK of Christ you deny the crux of the holy faith. Did you mean me? I don't think I deny anything true about Jesus or what he did. I believe in him. I guess I can believe that as long as you don't mean the God of Jesus, who he called "the only true God". But I don't object to calling God's son "God" as long as he is not confused with the Father. I believe all of that too. I don't mean to turn your thread into a Trinitarian debate or anything. I think it all really depends on the person and not the denomination like Jessicker was saying. Though some denominations may be harder to find real saints in if their doctrines are extremely bad or if their practices are bad. Well we trinitarians don't believe that Jesus is the person of the Father even though He is God and called the Father the only true God. It one tripersonal God that's revealed in Scripture. No oneness, modalist, unitarians, arians, etc.
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Post by john316 on May 22, 2010 12:43:57 GMT -5
Catholics clearly are not part of the Body; Exodus 20:4,5; John 3:3; 1Tim 2:5; Prov 28:13. Peter even affirms this; Acts 4:12 Ross when I say Catholics and Orthodox Christians there are different degrees of persons within those denominations. Some more extreme than others. I cannot say that every Lutheran believes exactly the same thing but I do believe you will find a remnant in that denomination. Can we find a remnant within these denominations is the question.
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Post by Jessicker on May 22, 2010 13:16:01 GMT -5
By the way, Jessicker, I didn't mean that comment about my confirmation in a disagreeable sense. I really thought it was interesting how we had two different experiences with that. God showed me not to do it and I put it off until I was about 16. I reasoned it out with myself and with my confirmation teacher and *then* I thought it was the right thing to do. When I was actually being confirmed, I thought it was the most holy thing I could do. After I was confirmed, I really started trying to be a "good Christian". I started reading the Bible more, going to church more, talking with my priest more, thinking and talking about God more, and praying more. It took about another three years for me to realize the rationalizing I had done was far from God's will and I finally left Catholicism. At least you thought it was the right thing to do and didn't try to reason away what God told you... I am glad God revealed the truth to both of us, though. Praise God!
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Post by john316 on May 30, 2010 18:35:14 GMT -5
So to sum it up this is a tough one to answer. Can I call a person who is Catholic or Orthodox my brother in Christ. It's hard to tell what is in their hearts. I was raised Catholic. We used forcebly vain repititions in our rosaries and litanies and so on and so forth. Now when I remember these prayers like the Lord's Prayer and the "Glory be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as it was in the begining now and ever shall be Amen!" mean so much to me now than when I was a lost. Even the "Act of Contrition" which we use to recite vainly have deep meaning now that we know the worth of Christ.
Second of all in these mainstream denominations like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism which affirm thr Trinity, Deity of Christ and many other essentials you want have every person in the group that believes the same thing. You have "Protestant" denominations that promote damnable heresies like annihilationism, and universalism. With that said we can conclude that most protestants are not saved even though they are closer to the truth. You can say that about most catholics and orthodox. But is it fair to say ALL Catholics and Orthodox are condemned? Reformed Theology is also dangerous but there are some SAVED Reformed folks. There some saved Lutherans.
Just some thoughts to think about.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 7, 2010 15:32:31 GMT -5
What do protestants have against the Orthodox church?
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Post by john316 on Jun 7, 2010 17:04:57 GMT -5
My whole point is you can have a SAVED Baptist, or a Saved Lutheran or a Saved Methodist or even a calvinist for that matter. You obviosly can't have a saved Mormon, or a saved JWs or a saved Unitarian or a saved Oneness or a saved Christaldephians. Can you have saved Catholics or Saved Orthodox when they believe Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh the second person of the Trinity?
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 9, 2010 11:12:11 GMT -5
My whole point is you can have a SAVED Baptist, or a Saved Lutheran or a Saved Methodist or even a calvinist for that matter. I agree. I don't see why not. I think there are probably good people in all of these groups. If they love God and their neighbor. Seems to me if you can have bad people with correct doctrine then you can have good people with incorrect doctrine. All kinds of different denominations think they are the true children of Abraham and everyone else are gentiles. Most of these groups are taught they have the Biblical faith, the Apostolic faith, that they are the true church. Can't God can see through these things into people's hearts? I'm not saying I think denominationalism is ok. I think all these groups should be working together to submit to each other in whatever ways they can so the world doesn't think that Jesus was just some guy and the Gospel is just a bunch of man-made philosophy, politics, and strife.
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Post by john316 on Jun 9, 2010 14:19:30 GMT -5
I am very strict and particular about doctrine. One cannot accept the concept of three gods like the Mormons do and still be a Christian or deny the eternality of Christ as the JWs do. And the end when it's all said and done there must be unity in the faith as Scripture declares in Ephesians 4:13
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 9, 2010 17:11:59 GMT -5
I am very strict and particular about doctrine. I think that's good. What would the point of doctrine be if it was not strict and particular? It would just be personal opinion then and not factual. Why should we judge others according to our knowledge instead of according to their knowledge? What if God judged us according to his knowledge instead of our own? How can we judge someone if they are doing their best to obey the Lord Jesus? So who decides when to excommunicate people over doctrinal differences?
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Post by john316 on Jun 9, 2010 20:26:16 GMT -5
It's not me who condemns. It's Scripture that does so. Anyone who does not love the Lord Jesus let him be anathenma. You can't just believe what you want about Jesus and expect to be a Christian. That's called idolatory if in case you didnt know. We must believe the Jesus revealed in Holy Scriptures. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed lay out all the essentials of the Christian faith. Though they are not the final authorithy.
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Post by Andreas on Jun 10, 2010 20:25:47 GMT -5
I'm not saying I think denominationalism is ok. I think all these groups should be working together to submit to each other in whatever ways they can so the world doesn't think that Jesus was just some guy and the Gospel is just a bunch of man-made philosophy, politics, and strife. In Germany, we already have the situation you describe. Almost all churches and ministries of Germany, alongside many other in all of Europe take part in one movement. The leaders of the churches and movements have made a "love covenant" and now work together and don't criticize the others any more. The movement was initiated by Chiara Lubich, an Italian woman who has worked for decades to bring all denominations and all religions together in unity. Alongside the Focolare movement founded by her, the movement is led by the Schoenstatt movement which seeks a spiritual unity of Europe by motivating people to totally surrender to Mary and giving their life to her. Another ministry in the leadership is the YMCA.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 10, 2010 21:48:58 GMT -5
It's not me who condemns. It's Scripture that does so. Just so you know, I didn't think you were trying to judge beyond what you understand the Bible to say. I also didn't mean it is wrong to judge at all. I only meant that we should not judge others based on knowledge they might not have. The Bible says if you know you should do something and don't do it then it is sin. How could it be a sin to not believe something if you don't know that you should believe it? I agree but, it does not overrule the fact that God judges us righteously based on our knowledge. If a man learns some truth about Jesus, then he becomes obligated to respond in love. But according to the degree of knowledge he receives, not according to all the knowledge he could possibly receive. If someone doesn't know about or understand a certain doctrine I don't think they are automatically anathematized because they were taught differently. People can be sincere and be uninformed, misinformed, or just unsure about things they don't understand. Right. You have to believe whatever you have been legitimately convinced is true about him. Sometimes two different people are convinced about two opposing views. They are both doing their best to have correct doctrine but haven't had the chance to come to complete agreement yet. It doesn't mean one is Christian and the other is not. They might both be totally mistaken in their beliefs but both be genuine Christians seeking correct understanding and to obey Jesus. Having wrong ideas about Jesus does not make you an idolater. However, choosing to make-believe in some false idea of Jesus or God when you certainly know better would be like idolatry. But you can't be an idolater in spirit by accident. I agree. But there is only one Jesus Christ and many different people reading the scripture with different preconceptions and different Bible teachers with different doctrines. I agree with the Apostles' Creed but, I don't know if I would say the name "Pontius Pilate" is essential to the Christian faith. The Nicene Creed, whether it is correct or not, contains statements that people 1) might not understand, 2) might not have been taught by the church they attend, 3) might, in good conscience, think are mistaken or non-biblical additions to the true faith. Even if the doctrine is wrong, I'm not sure condemning all Arians is fair, as the original Nicene creed does. Also, I'm not sure they knew what they were talking about when they said Jesus is "of one substance with the Father". Also, if the Nicene creed is essential to true Christian faith, then anyone who believes in omnipresence is disqualified from Christian faith because it says, "for us men, and for our salvation, [Jesus] came down from heaven".
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 10, 2010 22:30:57 GMT -5
I'm not saying I think denominationalism is ok. I think all these groups should be working together to submit to each other in whatever ways they can so the world doesn't think that Jesus was just some guy and the Gospel is just a bunch of man-made philosophy, politics, and strife. In Germany, we already have the situation you describe. Almost all churches and ministries of Germany, alongside many other in all of Europe take part in one movement. The leaders of the churches and movements have made a "love covenant" and now work together and don't criticize the others any more. The movement was initiated by Chiara Lubich, an Italian woman who has worked for decades to bring all denominations and all religions together in unity. Alongside the Focolare movement founded by her, the movement is led by the Schoenstatt movement which seeks a spiritual unity of Europe by motivating people to totally surrender to Mary and giving their life to her. Another ministry in the leadership is the YMCA. I'm not sure that's the situation I was describing. I sure didn't mean we should never criticize. I don't understand what "surrender to Mary" and "giving their life to her" means. Does it mean you can't love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength? Because I think everyone knows it is wrong to deny God as much honor and love as we know how to show him. Also, if Mary is still a woman, then she shouldn't have authority over men.
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Post by john316 on Jun 10, 2010 22:33:55 GMT -5
Are you an Arian?
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 11, 2010 7:04:42 GMT -5
I'm inclined to disagree with Arianism. I just don't really know how to answer their interpretations of different scriptures if Arianism is actually wrong. I can easily see how someone could be convinced Arianism was Biblical. I don't think it is fair to conclude all JW's are bad because of it.
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Post by john316 on Jun 11, 2010 9:13:28 GMT -5
It seems that you are just having symathy for heretics. I don't know how in the world in your right mind you can conclude JWs to be good people when they deny the eternality of Christ and also eternal torment. Well I don't believe someone can deny the Trinity and yet be a Christian.
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Post by john316 on Jun 11, 2010 9:17:53 GMT -5
I do believe that you can be part of a false denomination like JWs and Mormons and God in his compassion will reveal the truth concerning Himself in some way or another. Like Cornelius in Acts 10 who happened to be a Centurion who feared God and God provided a way in which the gospel was preached to him. Same with JWs and Mormons if they happen to seek the true God and God will reveal himself to them.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 11, 2010 11:10:30 GMT -5
It seems that you are just having symathy for heretics. Sympathy for human beings made in God's image. I didn't mean all JW's must be good people. If you are mistaken in doctrine because you've been taught the Bible says this or that, it doesn't make you a bad person. Sin makes people bad, not inaccurate knowledge. Have you ever been mistaken in your beliefs before? That's a fairly common belief in my experience. You obviously think you have good reasons for your belief about the importance of this doctrine. So it's not like you are being selfishly stubborn about something that has been totally disproved to you. So of course you can have a clear conscience regarding your statement. Therefore, even though I disagree with your statement, I don't think I should call you a heretic or a non-christian or divisive, because I assume you are well-intentioned and just saying what you think is true. There is no law against being mistaken about things so there is no reason a mistaken person would be automatically excluded from being a disciple of Jesus and from God's kingdom. However, if someone had the truth clearly shown to them in some way and selfishly persisted in their incorrect doctrine (which formerly was an innocent error), then they would not be loving God with all of their mind, but loving "being right" or loving their denomination, or loving their own honor because people might exclude them for changing beliefs. Then if they chose to follow these temptations instead of the truth and hardened their hearts against the truth they were suppressing, then they would depart from being a Christian. Because of their selfishness though, not because they were formerly mistaken.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 11, 2010 11:18:49 GMT -5
I do believe that you can be part of a false denomination like JWs and Mormons and God in his compassion will reveal the truth concerning Himself in some way or another. Like Cornelius in Acts 10 who happened to be a Centurion who feared God and God provided a way in which the gospel was preached to him. Same with JWs and Mormons if they happen to seek the true God and God will reveal himself to them. Amen. Peter said, "in every nation he that feareth [God], and worketh righteousness, is accepted with [God]." I would say the same for denominations as nations. Except for stubborn people who truly know they are wrong, "people in every denomination that fear God and work righteousness are accepted with God." How God interacts with them and helps them in sanctification and in learning more truth is over my head I think. Seems like everyone has different needs at different times in their life.
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Post by john316 on Jun 11, 2010 11:44:34 GMT -5
If I was raised a Hindu and taught Hindu ideals would you consider me a good person. Or if I was raised a muslin jihadist. Come on people need to have a sufficient knowledge of Jesus Christ in order to be saved and God will provide. My God given reasoning and logic will tell me that Hinduism, Islam, and Mormonism etc are foolish and ridiculous.
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