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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 20, 2007 18:20:02 GMT -5
THE FALL OF MANKIND
Commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 & Romans 5:12-21
By Jesse Morrell
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PHYSICAL DEATH & PHYSICAL LIFE
Physical death in Adam and physical life through Christ contrasted:
1Cor 15:21-22 “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Adam brought physical death upon all of his posterity when he was removed from the Garden of Eden where the tree of life was. Man needed to eat from the tree of life to live, which is why the tree was in the garden in the first place. But without it, the body was subjected to death, and would inevitably die. So, when Adam was removed from the garden on account of his sin, all those who were seminally in his loins (so to speak) were removed as well.
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24)
So, infant children, who are morally “innocent” (2 Kings 21:16; 24:4; Joel 3:19) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Romans 9:11), are subjected to physical death as a consequence of Adam’s sin since they are born outside of the Garden of Eden. But since infant children have neither guilt (because they are innocent) nor any sin (they have committed none), infant children do not go to Hell but to the Kingdom of God if they die in infancy (2 Samuel 12:23; Matthew 19:14), since they have no sin to be punished for.
But now through Christ, we have a physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22), a glorified body (1 Corinthians 15:42-45, 52-55), and access to the tree of life (Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14) and to the water of life (Revelation 22:17).
We inherit a body from Adam that is subjected to death, but we will receive a body from Christ which is not, as it is a body capable of living forever. Adam brought physical death, and Christ has brought the physical resurrection. Because of Adam, the tree of life was removed from all men, and all men, in consequence, are destined to die. But through Christ comes the resurrection and access to the tree of life, and, in consequence, the righteous will have eternal life. Christ restores what Adam lost.
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SPIRITUAL DEATH & SPIRITUAL LIFE
Spiritual death through Adam and spiritual life through Christ contrasted:
ROMANS 5:12:
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin . . .”
Adam brought sin into the world by his own free will, and spiritual death comes by sin. Adam became dead in sin (separated from God), just as God said he would, the very day that he ate from the tree. Though Adam physically died many years later, on account of being removed from the garden that had the tree of life, Adam spiritually died the same day he sinned against God.
“In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Since God cannot fellowship with or dwell with sin, Adam spiritually died, and became spiritually separated from God, the day he sinned. “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died” (Genesis 5:5); that is, Adam eventually physically died since he was removed from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).
“. . . and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Spiritual death comes by sin, so all who choose to sin become spiritually dead. A moral fall causes spiritual death. Because God cannot have fellowship with those who are in sin, those who are in sin must be separated from God, and thus they are spiritually dead in their sins. Spiritual death is relational separation from God because of personal moral disobedience.
“For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died [morally and spiritually, since Paul was still physically alive]” Romans 7:9.
“But your iniquities [not Adam’s] have separated between you and your God [brought spiritual death], and your sins [not Adam’s] have hid His face from you [separation]” Isaiah 59:2.
“For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me [morally and spiritually killed me]” Romans 7:11.
“But sin . . . working [moral and spiritual] death in me . . . .” Romans 7:13.
“For to be carnally minded is [moral and spiritual] death…” Rom 8:6
“Christ…died for all, then all were dead [morally and spiritually].” 2Cor 5:14
“And you who were dead [morally and spiritually] in trespasses and sins.” Eph 2:1, Eph 2:5
“. . . alienated and enemies [relationally] . . . by wicked works” Colossians 1:21.
"And you, being dead [morally and spiritually, since they were still physically alive] in your sins [not Adam’s sin] . . .” Colossians 2:13
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“But she that lives in pleasure is dead [morally and spiritually] while she [physically] lives.” 1Tim 5:6
“…and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death [moral and spiritual]. James 1:14-15
“…thou hast a name that thou liveth, and art dead [morally and spiritually].” Rev 3:1
ROMANS 5:13
“(For until the law sin was in the world . . . ”
The Law of Moses did not originate right and wrong. Rather, it declared right and wrong, since sin existed before the law was given. The law reveals what sin is, to point it out.
“Was then that which is good [the law] made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working [spiritual] death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:13).
“I had not known sin, but by the law . . . ” (Romans 7:7).
“ . . . but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
Just as faith is imputed [accounted as] righteousness (Romans 4:11), disobedience to the law is imputed [accounted as] sin. The Bible says, “to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).
And sinning against known law brings spiritual death. “For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died [spiritual and moral death]” (Romans 7:9).
ROMANS 5:14
“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ”
In between Adam and Moses was the time when the law was not yet written on stone tablets. Only the law of nature existed. Nevertheless, men were spiritually and morally dead in their sins because they violated the law of their own conscience; they did what they knew to be wrong.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; . . . they glorified him not as God” (Romans 1:18-21).
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” (Romans 2:14-15).
So, before the Law of Moses was given, spiritual death still reigned, since the law of nature, the law of their conscience, was being violated.
“ . . . even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses unto all men who sinned, even if their sin was not in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. For Adam transgressed a commandment; but those in between Adam and Moses acted contrary to the law of nature.
God must be separated from all sin (Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 1:5; 3:5). Therefore, all sin must lead to spiritual death. “Greater sin” (John 19:11), committed by those who have greater knowledge, or lesser sin, committed by those with lesser knowledge, must still separate a man from God. So those with “greater sin” or lesser sin are still dead in their sins. (The relation of knowledge to the measure of guilt is discussed further on.)
Those who transgress a commandment, like Adam did (“Adam’s transgression”), become dead in sin. And those who violate the law of nature, like the Gentiles did, become dead in sin. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, upon those who did not have the Ten Commandments, because they violated the law of nature.
ROMANS 5:15
“But not as the offense, so also is the free gift.”
They are not similar in nature, value, design, or result. The former was from disobedience; the latter was from obedience. The former resulted in death; the latter resulted in life. Adam is contrasted with Christ, and their effects are polar opposites. One brought life and justification, while the other brought death and condemnation. The one was only a leading, influence, and example; the other brought a leading, influence, and example, but it also brought the power to forgive past sin, so it is “much more.”
“For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more through the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.”
Adam’s disobedience brought sin into the world. Spiritual and moral death comes to those who choose to join in Adam’s rebellion. So, many who are dead in their sins (“be dead”) are dead as a result of Adam’s leading into sin, example of sin, and lasting influence to sin. But now the gift of eternal spiritual life [knowing God (John 17:3)] is offered through Christ to all those who are spiritually dead in their sins. But the offer of a gift must still be voluntarily received and accepted by the one to whom the gift is offered.
Those who choose or decide [by freewill] to follow Adam are spiritually dead in their sins; that is, they are separated from God relationally (Isaiah 59:2; Romans 7:9, 13; Colossians 2:13), without any righteousness (Romans 6:20), and they will receive eternal death – the punishment of hellfire (2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 21:8). But those who choose or decide [by freewill] to follow Christ will be spiritually alive; that is, they will be reconciled unto God relationally (John 17:3; Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Colossians 1:21), without sin (Romans 6:7, 11, 13; 8:10), and they will receive eternal life in the world to come (Mark 10:30). Those who become spiritually and morally dead in their trespasses and sins (relationally dead to God) need to choose to be “born again” (John 3:3) and therefore become morally, spiritually, or relationally “alive again” (Luke 15:24).
“…He that…believeth…is passed from [moral and spiritual] death unto life [relationship].” John 5:24
“…for this my son was dead [morally and spiritually] and is alive [relationship] again.” Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32
"Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead [moral and spiritual], and Christ shall give thee light." Eph. 5:14.
“…yield yourselves unto God, as those that are [relationally] alive from the dead [moral and spiritual].” Romans 6:13
“We know that we have passed from [moral and spiritual] death unto life [relationship].” 1John 3:14
ROMANS 5:16
“And not as it was by the one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.”
Adam and Christ are once again contrasted; the effects of their works are different. The influence of Adam’s sin resulted in judgment unto condemnation, while the effect of Christ’s obedience resulted in a free gift unto justification.
Notice it does not say that the sin of one condemned them all, but that the sin of one led to the condemnation of them all.
Because both condemnation and justification are conditional, neither is unconditionally universal. Condemnation is conditional upon personal transgression, while justification is conditional upon a personal decision to accept the gift by repenting and believing. Men are condemned for their own personal sins (1 Corinthians 6:9; Revelation 21:8), and reconciliation requires a personal choice (2 Corinthians 5:20).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 20, 2007 18:23:28 GMT -5
ROMANS 5:17
“For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”
Through the influence of one man’s disobedience, spiritual death reigned. How much more would grace and righteousness reign through Christ to those who would choose and decide to receive it.
ROMANS 5:18
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation . . . ”
The influence and effects of Adam’s sin led unto the condemnation of all men, upon all those who choose to sin by their own free will. The relation between Adam’s sin and men’s condemnation is that Adam’s sin provided the circumstances of men’s temptation and the occasion for men’s sins. The result of the influence of Adam’s offense brought judgment and condemnation to all men, since the result of his influence is that all have chosen to sin.
Consider just one of the effects of Adam’s sin. Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17), and all of his descendent's inherit this knowledge called the conscience (Romans 2:14-15). All men are accountable to the knowledge that they have, and all are judged according to that knowledge (Matthew 11:21-22; John 9:41; 15:22; James 4:17). So, judgment is according to knowledge, which leads to condemnation, when each man gives an account for his own personal deeds.
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16).
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (2 Kings 14:6).
“The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin” (2 Chronicles 25:4).
“What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, says the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:2-4).
“Yet say ye, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezekiel 18:19-20).
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his [not Adam’s] works” (Matthew 16:27).
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he [not Adam] hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10).
“ . . . whose end shall be according to their [not Adam’s] works” (2 Corinthians 11:15).
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his [not Adam’s] work shall be” (Revelation 22:12).
“ . . . even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
Through Christ’s obedience of shedding His blood as an alternative, replacement, or substitute for our punishment, the free gift of reconciliation is offered unto all men unto justification of life. Because Christ has shed His blood, our punishment of hellfire can be dispensed with (Hebrews 9:22), our debt can be pardoned (Matthew 6:12; 18:27; Luke 7:42), and we can have an eternal relationship with God. Through Christ, men can be justified (that is, reckoned righteous and not have their past sins accounted against them (Romans 4:6-9)), which is the same thing as saying they can be forgiven, so they can enter into the spiritual life of knowing God (John 17:3).
ROMANS 5:19
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners . . . ”
Through Adam’s leading, influence, and example, men have voluntary chosen to become sinners of their own free will. Adam has provided the circumstances of temptation and the occasions to sin through his leading, influence, and example, though each man is the cause of his own sin, and is therefore accountable for his sin, and for his sin only.
One man can wrongly influence another man, who wrongly influences another man, who wrongly influences another man, who wrongly influences another man, and on and on it goes. But if we were to trace all of these influences back as far as we can go, we would terminate upon Adam, who started this chain reaction, in the garden. So Adam has made many to sin by his leading, influence, and example.
It can also be argued that because of Adam’s fall, all of his descendants inherit physical depravity which inclines them, influences them, and tempts them to sin, and in this way does Adam “make” us sinners, though we voluntarily choose to obey those inclinations, influences, and temptations by our own free will.
Many Old Testament Kings “made Israel to sin” (1 Kings 14:16; 15:26, 30, 34; 16:13, 26; 21:22; 22:52; 2 Kings 3:3; 10:29, 31; 13:2; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 21:11, 16; 23:15); that is, through their leading, influence, and example they made Israel to sin.
Foreign women caused King Solomon to sin (Nehemiah 13:26); that is, through their leading, influence, and example, Solomon decided to sin. By setting up high places of Baal, men caused Judah to sin (Jeremiah 32:35); that is, they sinned because of this leading, influence, and example. Israel had leaders who would “lead [them]” and “caused [them] to err” (Isaiah 3:12) by their leading, influence, and example. Through a person’s leading, influence, and example, a little child can be caused to sin (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2). The leading, influence, and example of a Christian can even cause a weaker brother to stumble (1 Corinthians 8:9).
These are all cases in which someone can be “made” or “caused” to sin through someone else’s leading, influence, and example. Likewise, because of Adam’s disobedience, “many were made sinners;” that is, through his leading, influence, and example, men voluntarily choose of their own free will to sin and to be sinners, and thus become spiritually dead and receive eternal condemnation.
“ . . . so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Christ makes men righteous in their standing and in their doing, so that those who are converted are accounted righteous by His blood, and those who are converted are actually righteous by following His example. Christ brings pardon of previous sins and purification of present sins, forgiveness to the past and freedom to the present.
Through Christ’s obedience in shedding His blood on a cross, we are given the possibility of being accounted righteous (forgiven) through faith. We can be forgiven (accounted righteous) by faith in His blood.
“And therefore it [faith] was imputed [accounted] to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed [accounted] to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed [accounted], if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for [on behalf of] our offences, and was raised again for our justification” (Romans 4:22-25).
“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted [imputed] to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:6-8).
Through Christ’s obedient life we are given an example to live righteous by following Him. Christ will “lead” us “in the way of righteousness” (Proverbs 8:20). “For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you” (John 13:15). “Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps” (1 Peter 2:21). “For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11-12). And we are to follow the example of brethren who are followers of Christ’s example (1 Corinthians 11:1; Philippians 3:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:9).
Being righteous is not only a standing, but is also a moral character in relation to deeds: “Obedience unto righteousness” (Romans 6:16). “Yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness” (Romans 6:19). “If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him” (1 John 2:29). “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous” (1 John 3:7). “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10).
The purpose of the atonement was to cleanse sinners from all their sin, to pardon their past and to purify their present (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24). Both imputed righteousness (forgiveness) and imparted righteousness (repentance unto obedience) are by faith in Christ, and not by outward works (Acts 26:18; Romans 3:28; 1 John 3:3).
ROMANS 5:20
“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.”
Again, the law does not originate right and wrong. Rather the law declares right and wrong. The purpose of the law was not to forgive sin, since present obedience cannot atone for past disobedience, but the purpose was to show the exceeding sinfulness of sin, to plainly and publicly declare what sin is, to point sin out.
“Was then that which is good [the law] made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:13).
“I had not known sin, but by the law . . .” (Romans 7:7).
“But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.”
The greater amount of sin there is, the greater amount of forgiveness is needed for reconciliation. How great was God’s grace when He, “who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us” (Ephesians 2:4), sent Jesus Christ, when “the whole world lies in wickedness” (1 John 5:19).
It was God’s loving grace that sent Jesus Christ to die so that all men could have the opportunity of being saved (John 3:16). It is God’s goodness that gives us the chance to repent (Romans 2:4; Revelation 2:21). But the grace of forgiveness is only given to those who repent of their sins (Luke 13:3), who repent out of love for Jesus because of what He has done for us (1 John 4:19). So grace is offered in Christ to those who are yet in their trespasses and sins (Romans 5:8), but God’s grace in Christ is only granted to those who turn from their trespasses and sins (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 8:22), to those who forsake their sins by faith (Hebrews 11:27).
The greatness of sin was shown by the law, so that the greatness of love on account of grace would be given. For how great is the love of the one who has been forgiven great trespasses, since the one forgiven much will love much (Luke 7:41-43), and as Jesus said of one women, “Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much” (Luke 7:47).
ROMANS 5:21
“That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Sin was the channel through which death came; now righteousness is the channel through which grace comes. The result of sin was bad, but the result of righteousness is good. Death came through sin, and now grace comes through righteousness, which is unto eternal life by Jesus Christ.
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REMARKS:
1. It has been proposed by certain theologians of the Augustinian tradition that the freedom of the will to choose between good and evil was somehow lost when Adam sinned, and that men are born after the fall with only the “freedom” (so called) to sin.
This would make sin a defect of the constitution rather then an abuse of the power of choice; it would make sinners mere cripples rather then criminals.
It should be noted, however, that the loss of free will was nowhere mentioned in the list of consequences and punishments for Adam’s sin (Genesis 3:14-19). In fact, God addressed Cain after the fall as one who had the power of choice (Genesis 4:6-7), and Cain inherited the same nature as his righteous brother Abel.
Many times after the fall God appeals to men to choose good over evil, and explicitly address them as those who have the power or freedom to do so (Joshua 24:15; Isaiah 1:16-20; 55:6-7; Hosea 10:12; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Jeremiah 18:11; 26:13; Act 2:40; 17:30; Romans 6:17; 1 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Timothy 2:21; James 4:2, 8-10; 1 Peter 1:22; Revelation 22:17). The freedom of the will, to choose disobedience or obedience, is a presupposition made throughout the entire Bible. So, no matter how strong the motive or temptation is, God never allows it to be above our ability, and He always makes a way of escape (1 Corinthians 10:13).
2. Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 have been interpreted by the Augustinians to teach that infant children are sinful and are sinners, before they make any choices at all.
It should be noted that neither of those scriptures even mention Adam, Eve, or the fall at all. Connecting those scriptures to their doctrine of the fall is entirely prejudicial inference. They are “connecting the dots” out of bias. They also make the logical fallacy of proving a universal inheritance of original sin by pointing to universal sin, when that can be accounted for just as easily by universal temptation.
Psalm 51:5 (KJV) says that David’s mother was in sin during the time of conception, and therefore he was conceived and born in sin, as opposed to sin being in him when he was conceived and born. This is a view certain orthodox Jews hold to. It also gives us more insight into why David might have been the embarrassment of the family when Samuel came around. (1Sam 16:10-11)
Psalm 58:3 is a poetic psalm not to be taken in its literal sense, since it says that children start speaking lies from the womb. Obviously children cannot speak until some time after birth, so all this psalm is saying is that children learn to sin at an early age, and that the first sin that they commit is usually lying.
So, let it be remembered that infant children are morally innocent (2 Kings 21:16; 24:4; Joel 3:19) and have not yet “done anything” morally “good or evil” (Romans 9:11) until the age of accountability, which is the age of reason, when they know right from wrong (Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 7:15-16; James 4:17), and choose to do wrong.
Men are sinners by choice and not by birth, so sinners are to be blamed and not pitied. Inward sin or indwelling sin is completely voluntary, and has to do with the voluntary condition of their inward intention or heart (Job 11:14; Matthew 23:26; Romans 6:12).
3. Some have suggested that Christ was born of a virgin to avoid the reception of “original sin.” To them, sin is some abstract entity which lodges itself behind a person’s will, so that the will is necessitated to commit what they call “actual sin.” They reason that since Christ did not commit any actual sins, Christ must not have any original sin inside of Him, and that must be because He was born of a virgin.
However, scripture nowhere states that the reason of His virgin birth was to avoid inheriting original sin. This again is prejudicial conjecture, a “connecting the dots” out of bias. Rather, the bible says Christ was born of a virgin as a sign (Isaiah 7:14), and simply because God was His Father. It was not because some sort of sin stuff was hereditary, in the blood or in any other inherited part. Scripture says that Christ was made human, partook of the same flesh and blood that we have (Hebrews 2:14), and was made in all points like we are made (Hebrews 2:17), so He was tempted in all points like we are (Hebrews 2:15). Christ received the same type of body as those who use their bodies for sin, yet Christ condemned using the body for sin by not sinning (Romans 8:3). There is nothing sinful in and of itself in the human body, it is simply an “instrument” that can be used by free will (yielded) as an “instrument of righteousness” or as an “instrument of unrighteousness” (Rom 6:13).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 26, 2007 10:05:27 GMT -5
Here is a good section from Gordon Olson on Romans 5:
In speaking of the coming judgment, we are expressly told in the Bible that God with perfect righteousness shall judge every moral being for his own sins, no hint or mention being made of the imputation of Adam's guilt: Ps. 9:7-8; 96:13; Ecc. 11:9; 12:14; Is. 3:10-11; Jer.31:30; 32:17-19; Mt. 12:36-37; 16:27; Lk. 12:47-48; 20:46-47; Jn. 5:27-29; 12:48; Acts 17:30-31; Ro. 2:2-11, 12, 16; 14:10-12; Ga. 6:7-8; I Co. 4:5; II Co. 5:10; I Tim. 5:24-25; He. 9:27; I Pe.1:17; Jude 14-15; Re. 2:23; 20:12-13. Note: When in Ex. 20:5; 34:7; Nu. 14:18; De. 5:9; and Jer.32:18, mention is made of "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children," reference is made to the intimate relationship that God has constituted between parents and their children, the profound effects of the laws of heredity and environment which God has not voided. It cannot refer to the transfer of the guilt of sin, because it extends only to "the third and fourth generation," a normal period of influence. Then again, Jer. 32:19, one of the contexts, specifically states God's impartial basis of imputing guilt. But more emphatically, we are told that in God's judicial rulership of moral beings the guilt of one shall never be transferred or imputed to another: De. 24:16; II Chr. 25:4 (II Kgs.
14:6); Ps. 94:23; Jer. 31:30; Eze. 18:4, 20. In the face of this positive assertion of principle, a contradiction would exist in the Bible if any statement could be found declaring our guilt for Adam's sin.
We must remark upon the celebrated passage in Ro. 5:12-19, which is often referred to as establishing the dogma of the literal imputation of Adam's guilt to all his posterity. The discussion of this passage in this connection has gone on for a millennium and a half. Everyone who believes the Bible affirms the first part of verse 12 as historical: "By one man sin entered into the world." It appears that "death" is to be interpreted as primarily spiritual, in the sense of
separation from God, with physical death as a secondary consequence because of being shut out from "the tree of life." It has been affirmed by many that Adam acted for the whole human race, either as an appointed federal head or as an organic head, and therefore the last part of verse 12 ought to be rendered, "in whom all have sinned." The organic concept considers the whole human race as pre-existing mysteriously in Adam. Upon this theory, Adam's guilt is our guilt and is the basis for universal condemnation. However, the text only affirms that "death passed upon all men in as much as all have sinned." There is no proof that Adam is involved in this last statement. It is most interesting to note that the same verb and tense appear in 3:23, where we read: "For all have sinned, and come short (or are coming short) of the glory of God." Also, in 3:12 we have the same tense: "All did turn aside from (the right way)." It appears that these verses declare the tragic fact that all mankind, without exception, have followed Adam's example in rebelling against God, with the sad consequence of spiritual death or eternal separation from God. This is what Isaiah had declared so long ago in the words: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way" (53:6).
In understanding Ro. 5:12-19, we must distinguish between "occasion" and "cause." By occasion we mean an opportunity or "a condition of affairs that brings something about; ...especially, the immediate inciting circumstances as distinguished from the real or fundamental cause." By cause we mean that event or force which actually produces the results or the effect without any further action. Cause is therefore the reason for the action, occasion the opportunity or circumstances. This passage speaks of two individuals who did something to or for the human race - Adam and the Lord Jesus. We have a direct parallelism drawn, extending to the same group of mankind, or, most evidently, to the whole of mankind. The article "the" inserted before "many" in verses 15 and 19, adds emphasis and affirms that the same group is referred to in
both cases. In verse 18 we have "all men" appearing in each parallelism. By what linguistic authority could we say that the terms, "the many" and "all men," when appearing on the Adamic side of the parallelism refer to the whole of mankind, while the same terms appearing on the Christ side refer only to those who are actually saved?
Since, obviously, the terms, "the many" and "all men," appearing on each side of the parallelism, refer to the same mass of mankind, we are entitled to say that if Adam was the cause of the downfall and condemnation of all, then Christ is the cause of the salvation of "all
men unto the justification of life." If free will and moral agency is eliminated on one side, it is also eliminated on the other. But if we view the two great leaders of the human race as providing occasions or circumstances for moral action, each to the whole mass of mankind without exception, then we may say that Adam's sin strongly influenced every member of the human race to follow in his footsteps and choose for himself the life of sinful indulgence, while the Lord Jesus by His life and sacrificial death likewise provided something for each member of the human race to act upon. Just as Adam permeated the atmosphere with wrongful indulgence to draw all men towards sin, so the Lord Jesus permeated the atmosphere with love and mercy to draw all men toward holiness. The passage, then, describes the occasion of sin and the occasion of salvation as being co-extensive, committing to each moral being the cause and the responsibility for his own response to these influences. In this view, the passage becomes a blessed revelation of the glories of our Lord and Saviour, unencumbered by perplexity. 45 Theology, 1878, p. 253.
C. G. Finney remarked on Ro. 5:12-19 as follows: "The Bible once, and only once, incidentally intimates that Adam's first sin has in some way been the occasion, not the necessary physical cause, of all the sins of men. It neither says nor intimates anything in relation to the manner in which Adam's sin has occasioned this result. It only incidentally recognizes the fact, and then leaves it, just as if the quo modo was too obvious to need explanation."45
We are considerably relieved, therefore, to find the lack of Biblical evidence for the dogma, that the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all his posterity, and to conclude that "the Judge of all the earth" will hold each moral being accountable only for his own sins. While the sin of Adam and its consequences provide a strong occasion, nevertheless each moral being is the cause or author of his own guilt. The guilt of all past sins must be forgiven if the objective of reconciliation is to be achieved.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 26, 2007 10:06:28 GMT -5
These are some quotes I just found:
PHYSICAL DEATH
"Here it is to be remarked that, with the fathers [Early Church Fathers before Augustine], as Erasmus has suggested, the expression to die or to die in Adam, is synonymous with being driven out of Paradise, because they who were driven out of Paradise, were no more allowed to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. At least this is the common meaning. For us to have died in Adam, is nothing else than what Methodius, in a fragment in Epiphanius (Haer. 64), thus expresses, "We were driven out of Paradise in the first father." Dr Wiggers (Historical Presentation of Augustinianism and Pelagianism, pg 399-400)
"The tree of life that was doubtless endowed with a mysterious ability to sustain perfect bodily health, without the slightest decay or deterioration” Gordon Olson (Essentials of Salvation, pg 82)
"It was certainly grievous for God to drive out man from the beautiful garden and from "the tree of life," which must have sustained perfect health (3:24)." Gordon Olson (Essentials of Salvation, pg 94)
“The ‘tree of life’ in the midst of the most pleasant garden where man was invited to dwell must be suggestive of something. I suggest that it may have been the means of keeping man’s physical body and soul in vigor and to prevent decay and death. This is suggested also in Ge 3:24, where man is prevented from taking of the tree of life after the fall. In vs 22, the reason is stated, ‘lest he…eat and live forever.” Not, presumably, that if he had eaten one time from it, he would have lived forever, but lest he keep on eating from it and thus keep on living forever.” Gordon Olson (The Foreknowledge of God, pg 25)
SPIRITUAL DEATH
“We die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us.” Titian (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” Theophilus (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
"By one man sin entered into the world.’ It appears that ‘death’ is to be interpreted as primarily spiritual, in the sense of separation from God, with physical death as a secondary consequence because of being shut out from ‘the tree of life." Gordon Olson (Essentials of Salvation, pg 133)
"Death passed upon all men in as much as all have sinned.’... It is most interesting to note that the same verb and tense appear in 3:23, where we read: ‘For all have sinned, and come short (or are coming short) of the glory of God.’ Also, in 3:12 we have the same tense: ‘All did turn aside from (the right way).’ It appears that these verses declare the tragic fact that all mankind, without exception, have followed Adam's example in rebelling against God, with the sad consequence of spiritual death or eternal separation from God. This is what Isaiah had declared so long ago in the words: ‘All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way" (53:6)." Gordon Olson (Essentials of Salvation, pg 133)
“Adam’s sin put all men in the place of choosing sin. He fell first, damaged us all and set us up to follow his lead. But Jesus did not sin. His victory over sin and death put all men in the place of choosing righteously if they will respond to Him! As Adam’s sin is the occasion (not cause) of a race’s ruin, so Christ’s obedience is the occasion, not cause of its redemption.” Winkie Pratney (Adam or Me, pg 11)
“Romans 5:12-19 does not establish the dogma of the literal imputation of Adam's sin to all his posterity, but merely affirms in a parallelism that just as Adam's sin was the occasion, not cause, of the voluntary disobedience of all men, so Christ is the occasion, not cause, of the salvation offered to all men. "Cause" is the reason for an action, "occasion" the opportunity or circumstance for an action. The whole of mankind are referred to on both sides of the parallelism….Verse 12 simply makes the statement that "death did pass through unto all men because (or for the reason that) all did sin." The climactic action Greek aorist tense is used in both verbs, simply stating the fact that all men have committed sin and thus began to experience spiritual death…These verses simply narrate the tragic fact that all men have followed Adam's example and have chosen to live supremely selfish lives and thus are under guilt for their own sin.” Gordon Olson (Truth Shall Set You Free, pg 84-85)
"To be sure Adam fell into a state of total alienation from the law of God, and lapsed into a state of supreme selfishness. His posterity has unanimously followed his example. He and they have become dead in trespasses and sins." Charles Finney (Lectures on Theology, pg 324)
“Christ suffered so that we who had forsaken God by following Adam might be reconciled to God through Christ.” Pelagius (Commentary on the Romans, pg 92)
"For just as through one person’s disobedience many were made sinners...’ Just as by the example of Adam's disobedience many sinned". Pelagius (Commentary on the Romans, pg 95)
"Pelagius affirmed that "death" in Romans 5:12 was spiritual or moral ruin, and rendered the last part in the sense that moral corruption has come to all, because all have sinned after Adam's example. He totally denied all Adamic imputation, and asserted that sin was entirely a matter of freewill" Gordon Olson (Essentials of Salvation, pg 132)
“In the noted passage, Rom. 5:12, he [Pelagius] took death, not with Augustine for bodily death, but for spiritual, or the moral ruin which came into the world by the example and imitation of Adam's sin. Sin, and moral death with sin, came into the world by Adam, for Adam gave the first example or form, as Pelagius expressed himself, of sin, which did not there exist before him. So moral corruption came upon all… because all sinned after the example of Adam. The phrase, in whom all have sinned, he explained thus, ‘In as much as all have sinned, they sin by Adam's example.’ See his commentary on Rom. 5. The sense of the whole passage, therefore, according to Pelagius, was the following. As by one man sin has come into the world, and moral ruin with sin, so moral corruption has come to all, because all have sinned after Adam's example. By the Pelagian explanation, therefore, there was no proof at all for the Augustinian original sin, in this passage; but it means only thus much, that by Adam, sin and moral corruption came into the world, because he sinned first. "By imitation," not "by propagation," have sin and its consequences come upon the human race.” Dr Wiggers (Historical Presentation of Augustinianism and Pelagianism, pg 354)
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Post by dmatic on Dec 3, 2007 16:43:22 GMT -5
Jesse, you wrote:
What evidence do you have that it was "spiritual death" that was the consequence of Adam's sin rather than physical death?
Certainly, you've heard that a "day" with the Lord is as a thousand years? Thus no man has lived physically more than 1000 years. This physical death has passed onto all men....in the same way that life, through Christ , will pass to ALL men.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 3, 2007 20:24:58 GMT -5
Dmatic,
This commentary is about how both physical death and spiritual death resulted from Adams sin.
1Cor 15:21-22 is about physical death while Romans 5:12-21 is about spiritual death.
I say that 1Cor 15:21-22 is physical death because the context is the physical resurrection. Adam brought physical death while Christ brought the physical resurrection.
And I say that Romans 5:12-21 is about spiritual death because it is in connection to each persons individual sins. "Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" so it comes upon them for their own sin, and then it makes a distinction between their sin and Adams sin "even upon those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adams sin".
I would recommend reading the entire commentary for a thorough perspective of what I'm saying.
If you have any questions after fully reading it, just let me know.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 3, 2007 21:55:39 GMT -5
1. Children do not inherit the guilt or sin of the parent: Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20
2. Sinners are separated from God for their own sin: Romans 7:9, Colossians 2:13, Isaiah 59:2
3. Responsibility is limited to ability: Deut 6:5, Deut 10:12, Deut 30:6, Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, 1Cor 10:13
4. Accountability is limited to knowledge: Matthew 11:21-22, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 23:34, John 9:41, John 15:22, Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13, James 4:17, John 19:11, Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47, James 3:1, Matt 10:15, Matt 11:24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, Luke 10:14, Heb 10:26, 2Peter 2:21
5. Sinners choose to follow Adams example: Romans 5:12, Romans 5:19
6. Bad leading, influence, or example can cause others to choose to sin: 1 Kings 14:16; 15:26, 30, 34; 16:13, 26; 21:22; 22:52; 2 Kings 3:3; 10:29, 31; 13:2; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 21:11, 16; 23:15, Nehemiah 13:26, Jeremiah 32:35, Isaiah 3:12, Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2, 1 Corinthians 8:9, Heb 4:14
7. Men become dead in sins when they voluntarily choose to sin. They are not born that way: Romans 5:12, Romans 5:14, Romans 7:9, Romans 7:11, Colossians 2:13
8. Sinners are accountable for their own sin alone: Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20, Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Revelation 22:12.
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Post by dmatic on Dec 4, 2007 14:15:03 GMT -5
Jesse, I did read your whole postings and even printed them  . so that I could re-read them at my convienience...so I decided to ask you a simple question first.....where, in scripture, do you prove "spiritual" death? P.S. I think we sin becasue death has passed upon us. M ost of us are afraid to die, so we do what we think we can to prevent it....thus we seek to save our own life.....even though most of us know that by seeking to save our own lives we lose it! Peace, dmatic |
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Post by dmatic on Dec 4, 2007 15:57:16 GMT -5
Jesse, maybe it would be more beneficial for you to define what you mean by "spiritual death".
I am under the impression that when we die, our bodies go back to the dust from which they came and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. (Eccl.)
Peace, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 4, 2007 16:10:59 GMT -5
PHYSICAL DEATH: the death of the body. This is caused by Adams sin because we have been removed from the garden.
SPIRITUAL DEATH: this is the destruction of the spiritual life, or separation from God. This is caused by each persons personal sins.
ETERNAL DEATH: the eternal destruction of the soul in hellfire. This is caued by each persons personal sins.
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Post by dmatic on Dec 5, 2007 18:18:38 GMT -5
I'm still unclear as to what you mean by "spiritual death" brother.
You wrote:
Adam was made a living soul. Did he have a spirit?
Peazce, dmatic
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 5, 2007 18:29:03 GMT -5
All that I mean by spiritual death is that a person is "dead in sin", separated from God. So they are without any righteousness and without a relationship with God.
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 6, 2007 12:00:04 GMT -5
Your article is very good Jesse, and I agree with it.
The garden was an "eye openning" experience in which Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, bringing enmity (they became carnal - Romans 8:7) with God, and setting them on a path for the Lake of Fire at the second death. Being dead in trespasses and sins, means heading for that second death, or being on death row, waiting for that Judgment Day.
All sin, because all who grow to accountability know "good and evil". Those who know to do good and don't do it, have sinned (James 4:17). Adam and Eve had an eye openning experience, gaining the knowledge of good and evil, with the consequence being subject to the moral law, as you stated, written on the heart and the conscience bearing witness. This is why Cain knew killing his brother was wrong, even though "thou shalt not kill" would not be written in stone until Moses.
If we all were taking a tour across Europe and driving on the Autobahn, we could go as fast as we wanted, there is no speed limit. But imagine if we cruised at 100 mph (oops 88 kmh) on day one, not breaking the law; but didn't know that at midnight that night they were innacting a new speed limit. We get up, jump in our cars and start again going 88 kmh, and now their is a law. Yesterday we were not breaking the law, because there was no law for speeding (at least not on that Autobahn), but today, because someone innacted it, we are now law breakers.
I believe that the so called "fall of man" was the initiation of that law of conscience. Those laws existed before then in heaven, but had not been innacted on Adam and Eve, nor would have on any of us, except that they broke the only law they had, and ate from the tree of the knowledge and good and evil.
Children don't go to the second death because they really don't comprehend good and evil. Once a child grows to a certain age, and understands this (I have no idea what age) they will find themselve accountable and therefore also headed to the second death, on death row, now dead in their trespasses and sins.
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 6, 2007 12:22:15 GMT -5
The attonement of sin is the only thing that saves from being cast away at that final Judgment. Just as the blood attonement of the sacrificed lamb was used to cover the sins, as blood cannot be seen through, so Jesus' blood will attone for all who have brought their sins to be transferred to Him as the lamb of God.
We must look at the tabernacle system to see this wonderfully laid out. The Seventh Day Adventists actually have this teaching very well written about. In this teaching, Jesus as High Priest has been taking our confessed sins to the Holy Place from the time He went back to heaven until 1844 (based on a 2300 year prophesy until the the cleansing of the temple). Remember that when John saw the Lord, he also describes the table and candlestick and shewbread which means He was still in the Holy Place, not yet in the Holy of Holies. The King James Greek clearly does not say Holy of Holies, but many new version (corrupted Greek) show this as Holy of Holies.
The Seventh Day Adventist teach that "probation" is still open. Probation was that period of time from when the High Priest brought the blood on to the mercy seat, and through the time that the High Priest cleansed the Holy of Holies with incense. Anyone that sinned in the tabernacle system after they killing of the lambs, had to offer up prayers for forgiveness. The smoke rising in the incense for the Lord is called "the prayers of the saints".
Just as many read Rev 2 and 3 as actual letters and time periods, so they see the tabernacle as a thing that was done by earthly High Priests, but now that Jesus, once and for all is carrying out the same process High Priest duties in heaven, it that tabernacle not built by men, but by God. The study of this is amazing. I now also believe that Lord has now moved to that final stage as the end is close. Those who believe their future sins are already covered, will sadly find they needed to confess them in prayer, so they could be covered by the final attonement of His blood, offered once for all. Just as the Israelites didn't have future sins covered automatically, nor do we. To think we don't have to apologize to God for our sins any more seems haughty to me, and it grieves me that so many choose to just assume they are covered. It shows a lack of understanding of the attonement process.
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Post by Brother. Ross on Dec 6, 2007 12:24:36 GMT -5
Brother Jesse,
I thought the commentary was very good.
I believe God created man without sin so don't get the idea that I'm rebutting or anything. My question is concerning the heart of man. I see that in Romans 6 and else where sin is a choice, and we are born with the ability to sin, and ability to resist temptation and avoid sin.
But if the heart of man is evil (Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth...)
and the predisposition of the heart precedes the action of sin, is the heart already evil? Also Jeremiah 17:19
Matt.15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
So what state is our heart in initially? If not evil , It is then corrupted in the same sense as you have stated that the spirit dies after sin?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 6, 2007 13:42:49 GMT -5
That's very good!
Great questions Ross!!
Genesis 8:21 says that a man's heart is evil from his youth, not from his birth. And it says nothing about Adam. At a very young age children choose to sin - Ps 58:3
Jeremiah 17:9 simply states that a man's heart is wicked, it doesn't explain how a man's heart becomes wicked. And it too says nothing about Adam.
Matt 15:19 clearly shows how the will determines the actions, the heart determines the conduct. See also Matt 12:35, Luke 6:45
A man's will determines a man's conduct, and the man himself determines his own will. A man's heart is his will, motive, or intention. (Adultery of the heart is having an adulterous motive or intention, when a person wills it in their heart)
The condition, intention, or attitude of a persons heart is entirely voluntary:
1Ki 8:61 "LET YOUR HEART therefore be perfect with the Lord our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments,"
Zec 7:10 "LET none of you image evil against his brother in your heart."
Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed and MAKE YOU A NEW HEART and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Israel?
"I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end." Ps 119:112
A persons heart is either loving or selfish. Love and selfishness are both voluntary states, conditions, or attitude of the heart. A person chooses to have a loving intention or a selfish intention, and therefore chooses to have either a holy heart or a wicked heart.
If having a wicked heart is itself a sin, and we are obligated not to have a wicked heart, and sinners will be punished with hellfire for having a wicked heart, then a wicked heart is a voluntary choice which they did not have to choose, we have the ability not to have it.
IN SUMMARY:
1. A man determines his heart (will): 1Ki 8:61; Zec 7:10; Eze 18:31; Ps 119:112
2. His heart (will) determines his conduct: Matt 12:35, Matt 15:19, Luke 6:45
When we are born we haven't made any choices yet. We have a freewill but we haven't used it yet. Once we have knowledge, and choose to use our freewill, we are creating our will, creating our heart, creating our moral character.
Intention, heart, character are not abstract things that can be given to you by someone else, they are voluntary states or attitudes that we ourselves develop and determine. We choose our intention, our heart, our character. That is, we choose to be either loving or selfish, holy or unholy.
We have all made the wrong choices and we need the influence of the Holy Spirit to make the right choices, to have a right heart, etc. Without the intervention of the Holy Spirit, to give enlightenment and illumination, to convict us and instruct us, to lead us and direct us, sinners would continue to choose nothing but sin, they would continue to choose to have a wicked heart.
We need God to make for us a new heart, that is, we need God to so influence us that we will forsake our sins and come to Jesus Christ. We need to yield to the influence of God so that we choose to be loving instead of selfish, choose to be holy instead of evil.
God influences man - man determines his will - will determines conduct.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 6, 2007 14:23:34 GMT -5
This is a picture of what I am talking about:  Again, the will is the heart. A wicked heart is when a persons will is in submission to their sensibilities, when their intention is simply to please and serve themselves. A holy heart is when a person wills in accordance with their intelligence, or conscience, or God-given knowledge; when their intention is to promote the highest well-being of God, loving God supremely and neighbor equally, serving God and living to please God. |
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 6, 2007 14:35:54 GMT -5
Jesse:
We also can see in Psalm 14 that God defines fools as those that are corrupt, and that no fool does good. It does say all men do this, only the fool.
Note also that these all had gone astray (v.3) and became filthy, but doesn't say they started that way.
He distinguished them from His people in verse 4, that were being eaten up those fools and their iniquity.
When we understand this actual meaning from Psalm 14, we can re-read Romans 3:9-20 knowing God sees fools and His children as two groups.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 6, 2007 14:55:53 GMT -5
Here is another verse: "I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end." Ps 119:112
Sin is foolish, unreasonable, unintelligent. It is contrary to wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. It is contrary to our intelligence, knowledge, conscience.
Mat 7:26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be liked unto a foolish man..."
Obedience is wise, reasonable, intelligent. It is in accordance with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding; in accordance with our intelligence or conscience:
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man..."
Psa 111:10 "a good understanding have all they that do his commandments..."
Psa 119:34 "Give me understanding that I shall keep thy law..."
Psa 119:100 "I understand more than the ancients because I keep thy precepts."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 8, 2007 19:17:43 GMT -5
Did that answer your question Ross?
Your "heart" is not some abstract thing that you have no control over. Your heart is your will, your intention, your motive.
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 10, 2007 12:46:58 GMT -5
That is correct Jesse, otherwise Ezk chapters 3, 18, and 33 would show God as the unjust, not those who judged God. They thought it unfair that a wicked man who turned from his wickedness could be saved. And thought it unfair that a righteous man didn't build up credits, so if he became evil, he could just use some of his credits. It seemed God didn't believe in OSAS even in the OT.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 19, 2007 10:56:16 GMT -5
Your heart is your will or your mind. When a person makes up their mind to sin, or when their will is for sin, they have an evil heart. But when a person makes up their mind to live holy, or when their will is to live holy, they have a holy heart.
So God needs to change our heart through the influence of truth. We will never make up our mind to live without sin, or make up our mind to live holy, without the influence of the Holy Spirit.
So God changes our heart (our mind/will) through influence.
But God is not making us "able" to obey him. We have always been able to obey him. Rather, God is making us willing to obey Him. It is our own will, not our God given ability, that was hindering us from obeying God.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 19, 2007 19:10:59 GMT -5
Scripture says that a Christian has a new heart.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 19, 2007 22:06:46 GMT -5
Yes, when a person goes from being selfish to being loving, from being disobedient to being obedient, they have a new heart.
When a person makes up their mind to sin, they have a wicked heart. But if that same person later makes up their mind to be loving, (the Spirit influences this change) then that person has a new heart. Their heart is now loving instead of selfish, their heart is now obedient instead of disobedient, and so the person has a new heart.
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Post by celebrity on Feb 4, 2008 19:16:27 GMT -5
I just met a new christian last week. She was born again while she was young. But left the life of a saint for many years and recently came back.
I pointed out to becareful because some are so willing to draw lines in the sand and might suggest the time is more recent of her coming to behaving in faith. she had a good review of the thought and played down the commentaries I made about others reaction.
In reality, when approached with an attack on personal freedom, people will revert to what they followed before. This is called spontaneous recovery.
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bob
New Member
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Post by bob on Apr 7, 2008 13:40:35 GMT -5
AN ILLUSTRATION OF ORIGINAL SIN AND SPIRITUAL DEATH:
Consider a young man and wife, from the USA, who decide to move to Communist Cuba: once living there they become citizens. They no longer have the rights and privileges of a US citizen, and are no longer under the US constitution with its Bill of Rights and many freedoms. They are no longer protected by the American Police forces or the US Military.
When children are born to them in their new homeland, the children are automatically citizens of Cuba: although not by choice. These children grow up legally knowing and participating in a communist society with the USA as their enemy.
Consider the Cuban government being at war with the USA, these children will be fighting against America. They have, all their lives, been dead to their parent's former freedoms, they are subject to and are a legal part of a wicked totalitarian regime; they are now enemies of the country their parents once called home.
When the bombs fall, they fall on all the citizens of the enemy--both adults and children suffer. The children of the enemy become enemies also. They didn't move to Cuba willfully or willingly. They had nothing to do with their parent's choice; however, they are, legally, as much "the enemy" as their parents are.
Adam and Eve willingly "moved" to another citizenship to become servants of the Devil and members of his world system. They are at war with God and, in rebellion against Him, and are subject to His righteous wrath. Though the children didn't choose this, they are still subject to the choice and are naturally a willing part of it.
The children, now enemies, must flee from Cuba and hope to become citizens of the USA. This means they will have to be accepted by the USA, learn American ways and be persecuted by their Cuban homeland as traitors.
IN TERMS OF BEING DEAD TO GOD:
Death separates us from God; however, to be separated means there's the possibility to be reunited. To be dead is more than separation. And the children are born dead.
When we have a death in the family, we have to bury the dead body. We have to consign that dead one to the grave, and bury them. No matter how much we would like to, we cannot take that loved one home, sit them at our table and have coffee like we used to. They are dead! There's no place for them among the living.
Adam and Eve died in the day they disobeyed God. Their children were born dead! That's the sorrow of it all to God. That's why He's angry with sin--because it killed the creation He made with His own hands and His own breath. All that He invested in the human family was ruined! His work was dashed to pieces, and He's got a right to be wrathful.
And now there's no place in heaven for them. They must be buried in hell: the only other place there is.
Jesus had to take that death and burial upon Himself, being forsaken by God and subject to His wrath. Jesus became the guilty sinner though He never sinned.
The guilty prisoner set free and the innocent going to death is not really a good illustration. We were not sinners released from the prison of sin so that innocent Jesus could take our place at the gallows. In the eyes of the universe, Jesus became the sinner. They no longer could keep us in prison because now we were no longer the guilty ones they wanted. He became the guilty one. In that sense, Jesus was guilty--He became sin for us.
They took us from jail because they found out we were now the innocent ones, and the "new evidence" showed that He was the true guilty one (though He never sinned). He took our place as the guilty one.
Our sins were legally placed on Him (Though He never sinned!). They couldn't keep us in prison--they didn't want to keep us in prison. Authorities do not want an innocent person in prison. They set innocent people free. Now they saw Jesus as the true guilty one.
He became guilty of every vile sin (can you imagine the suffering--when, to the authorities, He was guilty, to be condemned, when He was actually innocent). Have you every been found guilty, thought of as being guilty, scorned as a guilty person, when you didn't DO IT! We would be the first to cry, "It's not fair." He didn't try to deny the guilt that was upon Him. He didn't "plead His case". He took it. For us, He made Himself the legally guilty Person.
He died and was buried for us. He was raised from the dead to show us there's hope for us. We can be sure of forgiveness and the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus is the true Savior of the World and the Messiah of Israel. Be proud of Him, serve Him, delight yourself in Him, and never be ashamed of Him.
Therefore, "Comfort the saints, and warn the wicked!"
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bob
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Post by bob on Apr 8, 2008 14:56:32 GMT -5
THE DEPRAVITY OF THE SOUL:
David said, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psa 51:5), and "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" (Psa 58:3).
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom 3:10).
Mankind is completely undone and without hope. There is only ONE way to the Father--Jesus said, "I am the way..."
In 1Cor 15:19 Paul said, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." Jesus said, "Ye must be born again."
Because we want babies to be holy, we must impress the responsibility on their parents. In 1Cor 7:14 the Apostle Paul said, "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."
Parents, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it" Pro 22:6.
Out side of what we can know and see, we must trust God who is righteous and mercyful. We need God's mercy; however, Jesus said that we must be mercyful: Mic 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" In Mat 19:14, "...Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Parents, REPENT!
"Comfort the saints and warn the wicked"
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 8, 2008 15:15:41 GMT -5
Training a child not to sin is only effective because sin is a choice, not a substance, and because children sin by choice not by birth. If original sin were true, spanking a child would be cruel and training a child would be useless.
The question here is, "are they unrighteous by birth or by choice?". I would contend that men are unrighteous by choice, they choose to sin and thereby choose to be sinners.
What does the Bible say? Are men sinners by choice or by birth? Each man is the author or self-originator of their moral character (Ecc. 7:29; Matt. 12:34-35, 15:19; Mk. 7:21-22; Lk. 6:45). Men deliberately choose to be sinners (Gen. 6:12, Exo. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Isa. 66:3; Hos. 9:9, Ps. 14:2-3, Isa. 53:6, Ecc. 7:29 Zep. 3:7, Rom. 3:23) so they are responsible and accountable for being sinners, since it is their own fault, it is their own free will choice to sin.
God is the author of our nature, that is, God is the creator of our constitution, He personally forms each individual in the womb (Gen. 4:1; Isa. 27:11, 43:7, 49:5; Jer. 1:5; Ps. 139:13-14, 16; Ecc. 7:29; Job 31:15, 35:10), so He forms each of us in the womb in His image (Gen. 1:26-27, 9:6, Jas 3:9). God didn’t stop with creating Adam; He forms each individual in the womb. Therefore we are all created with a free will and a conscience like God has.
Because of free will, the future is partly open with moral possibilities or alternative courses (Gen. 4:6-7, 22:12; Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17, 16:4, 33:2, 34:24; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; 1 Sam. 2:30, 2 Chron. 12:6-7, 16:9; 32:31; Jdg. 2:20-22, 3:4; Isa. 5:1-5; Eze. 3:19, 12:3, 12:13, 33:19; Jer. 3:6-7, 3:19-20, 18:8-10; Ps. 81:13, 81:13-14; Job 11:14, Matt. 23:26, Rom. 6:12, 1 Cor. 10:13).
Since God made free will apart of our nature, since God created our nature capable of moral action, or since we are capable of creating or originating our own moral character, we are therefore subjects of His Moral Government, designed to be governed by Him.
The word nature can be used to describe a man’s God given constitution (Rom 1:26, 1:31, 2:14, 2:27; 2 Tim 3:3) or the word nature can mean a man’s chosen character, custom, habit, or manner of life (Jer. 13:23; Acts 26:4; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-3; Gal 2:15; 2 Tim 3:10; 2 Pet 1:4). While God is the author of our metaphysical constitution (Gen. 4:1; Isa. 27:11, 43:7, 49:5; Jer. 1:5; Ps. 139:13-14; Ecc. 7:29; Job 31:15, 35:10), each man is the author or self-originator of their moral character (Ecc. 7:29; Matt. 12:34-35, 15:19; Mk. 7:21-22; Lk. 6:45). Men deliberately choose to be sinners (Gen. 6:12, Exo. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Isa. 66:3; Hos. 9:9, Ps. 14:2-3, Isa. 53:6, Ecc. 7:29 Zep. 3:7, Rom. 3:23) so they are responsible and accountable for being sinners, since it is their own fault, it is their own free will choice to sin.
Ps. 51:5 is used to prove original sin. But this is eisegesis and not exegesis. If we are to use exegesis, we can only conclude that David's mother conceived David in sin, she conceived him in some sort of sin. It could have been adultery, which would explain why David was the embarrassment of the family. Using exegetics, this scripture is only talking about David and his mother and not Adam and all mankind.
This is a poet Psalm. And Psalms use hyperbole and exaggeration's. This passage is clearly that, since it says that children go forth speaking lies after they are born. This is poetic and not literal, since children cannot speak or talk immediately after birth. The poetic meaning of this passage seems clear, the first sin children usually learn is lying.
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bob
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Post by bob on Apr 9, 2008 14:49:17 GMT -5
Jesse--did you honestly read all those scriptures before sending them?
BORN IN SIN
Being born in sin is involuntary. It does not mean we have sinned. We have no choice about being born as the children of Adam, and Adam was not allowed to eat of the tree of life because he moved himself and his family into sin and death. You and I were born there. Not only in sin, but also dead (to God). “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). We were born dead, because Adam was dead, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). Whether babies personally sin or not, they are born in sin—and dead to God. And please believe me, I have never been the least bit interested in Augustine.
If babies are in sin, will God put them in hell for that? Hell was not created for them or us; however, God has no choice but to "bury the dead" in the place appropriate for the dead. That's why we preach. God wants us and our children to stay out of hell. So, the preacher brings this message: Ezekiel 33:11--"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the [eternal, physical or spiritual] death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
So what about the baby? We preach to children who can understand and to adults; the adults need to nurture their babies and bring them to Christ. When God poured out the plagues on Egypt, they were poured out on everybody, babies as well, unless their parents obeyed God and put the blood on their doorposts. That's the difference between Egyptian or unbeliever's babies and the Israelite or believer's babies. The believer’s babies are covered by the blood. 1 Corinthians 7:14—“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.” Holy, until they sin willfully. However, the unbeliever’s baby is unclean (like the dead).
We are, by nature, carnal: Romans 7:14--"…we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" and Romans 8:7--"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." A baby doesn't become carnal or get a new, inferior mind (a carnal one). The baby is born carnal, of Adam, through no fault of his own and no sin of his own. That's why it is our responsibility to teach children about Jesus and the new birth. I've seen adults pull a children's tract right out of their little child’s hand even when the child reached out for it. The Lord said in Luke 18:16, “…Suffer [or permit] little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." They are the most likely to listen and believe. They’re perfect for salvation and easy to lead to Christ.
Babies are not being punished for someone else's sin; they are in someone else's choice. They are born in sin! That's where Adam went, and we were born there. We were born, "in the wrong place at the wrong time" so to speak. However, while the babies are there (in sin), they learn how to "do as the sinners do", and they sin and become personally guilty. Are babies innocent? They haven’t committed sin, but they have been born there (in sin and dead). We need to be born again: not just reverted back to our fleshly birth when we hadn’t sinned. “…born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-14). Jesus said, “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-8 and John 3:7).
How about babies? “…I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” God in His mercy and righteousness will judge the living and the dead. Revelation 20:12--And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
And, Revelation 20:13—“… the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”1 Peter 1:17—“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 9, 2008 18:19:47 GMT -5
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. so that I could re-read them at my convienience...so I decided to ask you a simple question first.....where, in scripture, do you prove "spiritual" death?