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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2006 20:54:01 GMT -5
" don't see either in scripture, nor from experience, where anyone who has claimed to be sinless, ever has been.. including the apostles"
Are you referring to Paul in Romans 7? I see Paul in Romans 7 using a literary techneque to describe his experience before conversion. When he said that he didn't do what he wanted to do, and what he did do was what he didn't want to do, he was speaking of his previous experience as a sinner slain by the law. He realized that by the Law he could not be reconciled back to God. The problem was "Oh wretched man that I am. Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" And then the next verse is the answer, "I thank God through Jesus Christ the Lord." And thus Paul illustrates being convicted by the Law, looking to Christ for deliverance, and finding the freedom and libtery from darkness and bondage in Christ.
Paul did testify of being free from sin.
Ro 6:18 - And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Ro 6:22 - But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Ro 8:2 - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
You will never be above or free of temptation, but you can and must be above and free from sin.
Even John the Baptist testified of this when he said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Not merely the consequences of sin, but the sins themselves!
And of course the Apostle John testifies of this cleansing from all sin multiple times in 1John.
PS. Also see the 60 or so scriptures I listed on the first page of this thread. There are of course many many other scriptures on freedom from sin, but those are just a few of them.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2006 20:59:06 GMT -5
So if you confess to be cleasned from all sin (as the scriptures says is clearly possible) you are a liar?
Wesley did know greek and latin, as well as about 7 or so other languages.
Dr. Michael L. Brown is also fluent in 20 other languages including greek and latin, and he too teaches freedom from sin and the Lordship of Christ.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2006 21:20:54 GMT -5
This is ONE of the THREE articles from the beginning of this thread which I wrote on the doctrine of The Lordship of Christ aka holiness.
Naming the Name of Christ
“Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19
The theology and terminology of many preachers today is quite repulsive to the heart that hunger and thirsts after righteous. Famous, influential, and respected preachers and authors publicly talk about being, as they call, “sinning Saints”. Scornfully they mock at the mere thought of living a life that is completely repented from sins. “Moral perfection is impossible” they believe as if a man can not truly live a life of holiness as Jesus did. “Follow me” Christ says, while these men say “you can’t”. While the New Testament church preached moral perfection, modern Churches have replaced it with moral imperfection. While the New Testament church preached entire sanctification, it has been replaced by the modern Church with part sanctification.
Preachers who preach the “sinning Saint” doctrine are in actuality strengthening the grip sinners have on their sins. If a preacher does not live holy, what are the other people left to do? The more acceptable and common an act is, the more likely it is to be done. What the masses do, the individual will do. Men are more likely to do what everyone is doing and are less likely to do what nobody is doing.
And so we have gotten to the point that it is commonly believed a man can be both a sinner and Saint rather then being one or the other. These ungodly men preach and teach such contradictions because their own lives contradict the Word of God. The bible has a different term other then “sinning Saint” and that term is hypocrite. Christ preached more extensively against religious hypocrisy and religious hypocrites then any other group of people. But rather then accusing the hypocrites in our preaching as Jesus did, our hypocritical preachers are justifying themselves, comforting their own hearts and the heart of sinners, yet subtly d**ning the souls of men. These preachers are broken bridges. They once may have bridged the gap between God and man, but now any that travel on them will die.
The way of the world and the way of heaven lead in different directions, but more then different directions, they lead in opposite directions. To walk with Christ you can not walk with the world. Half hearted commitment is no commitment at all. Leave all and follow Christ. Leave your pride, leave your lust, leave your dishonesty, leave your selfish ambitions, leave all and follow Christ. Compromised Christianity is not Christianity at all.
Let the “sinning Saint” carry on in his wickedness and he will in due time discover that he is among those whom Christ will say those dreadful words “depart from me you worker of iniquity”. No word will bring more terror and horror to the heart of man then hearing from the lips of his Creature “depart”. These words will echo in their heart for all eternity while they agonize in hell. Being so close and yet being so far! But the truth is that they didn’t truly want Christ in life and therefore they won’t have Him in death. They wanted heaven but not holiness. They wanted covering but not cleansing. They wanted right-standing but they didn’t want righteousness. They wanted to their sins to be forgiven but they didn’t want their sins to be forsaken.
More harm has been done to the holiness of the Church and the conversion of the world by religious hypocrites then by any other. How terrible it will be for the “sinning Saints” who gives Christ a bad name. By simply calling themselves Christians and yet not follow in Christ’s ways they make a mockery of Christ in front of the entire world. It is heinous blasphemy to be called by the name Christian and walk as worldly men do. You must walk as Christ walked. You must live as Christ lived. If you’re not willing to go all the way then please by all means go the other way. But for the name of Christ make up your mind.
“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” Do you want the Lamb of God to forgive you of your sins? Then you must allow him also to take away your sins. It was your sins that nailed Christ to the cross. He gave His life so that you could have life! Yet life with sin is not life at all. Sin is bondage and it desires to hold you captive until death will come to slay you. Yet Death was slain by Christ. Captivity was taken captive!
God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us if we sin but we must confess and repent. He does not want to merely cleanse you from some sin, but he wants to cleanse you from all sin. Is not all sin appalling to Him? Does not all sin infinitely offend Him? Does not all sin eternally separate men from Him? Therefore it is all sin that must be abandoned. When God casts sin into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, all those who are attached to sin will go with it. As a ball and chain it will drown you in the ocean of flames. Sin must be abandoned now because it can not be abandoned then.
God is hunting to kill you. But He does it in order to give you life. He wants to kill your corrupted nature and replace it with a nature like His. He wants to shatter your heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. He wants to kill you because without being put to death you can not be resurrected in new life with Him. Through Jesus Christ our Lord you can be delivered from your body of death. God is waiting for you, to take you in, feed you and cloth you. But you must go back home to him. Seek the Lord while He can be found.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 0:15:28 GMT -5
Amen brother!
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 16, 2006 1:18:16 GMT -5
1 John 1:8 from a Greek Word Study Commentary that I have: (1:8) Here John again combats the Gnostic heresy which held that we do not have any principle of sin within us, since matter is evil and the soul is not contaminated by sinful flesh. Smith, commenting on this verse says: “The heresy of Perfectionism. Some might not say, with the Antinomians, that they were absolved from the obligation of the moral law, but they maintained that they were done with sin, had no more sinful propensities, committed no more sinful acts.” Here we have the heresy of the eradication of the totally depraved nature during the earthly life of the Christian. The heresy of perfectionism and of the eradication of the evil nature is the present day form of this problem of the indwelling sinful nature.
“Sin” here is singular in number and is used without the definite article, all pointing to the fact that the nature is referred to, not acts of sin. Here we have the denial of the indwelling, totally depraved nature passed down the race from Adam. John says therefore, “If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are deceiving.” Notice, if you will, the emphatic position of the pronoun “ourselves.” The Christian who believes his evil nature has been completely eradicated is deceiving himself, nobody else. All others can see sin stick out all over his experience. And that sin must come from the indwelling sinful nature.
John says that the truth is not in that person. In the case of the Gnostics, that statement must be taken in an absolute sense. They were unsaved. In the case of a misinformed and mistaken present-day Christian, the statement will have to be qualified to mean that the truth of the indwelling sinful nature is not in him. The context would require this interpretation.
Translation. If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are leading astray, and the truth is not in us.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 16, 2006 1:31:05 GMT -5
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Post by Avery on Jan 16, 2006 7:07:38 GMT -5
I think that the scripture teaches we can be cleansed of all sin.... by the blood of Christ.... our consciences can be cleansed... and we can be strengthened by faith and by grace... take an honest look back at 1 John...
If you look at the book of acts... how many times did the apostles rebuke, and correct one another, and repent!!! several...
they were not beyond error...
but compare those who claimed or claim sinless perfection to them is like putting a sheep on a snowy hill... they stick out like a sore thumb... though on a green hill..(a sinful church) those men may seem pretty white....
I would encourage anyone who has or claims to be entirely sanctified... to examine himself to whether or not he is in the faith....
reason being this.... Jesus was perfect.... and He never boasted of it.... it was others who testified of His good works... He just submitted himself to God...
Phillipians 2:3-8
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 9:24:11 GMT -5
Jesus commanded us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. Did He really mean that or was He just making a religious statement? Probably a better question would be what did He mean by perfect?
"Though He were a Son yet learned He OBEDIENCE by the things which He suffered. And being made PERFECT He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him." Hebrews 5:8-9
Jesus was perfect because He walked in perfect obedience to the Father. The Bible makes no hint at all of us not being able to walk in perfect obedience to the Father. It expects this of us and requires this of us.
A just God would not command us to be "holy as He is holy" 1 Peter 1:16-17, "be pure as He is pure" 1 John 3:3, and "be perfect as He is perfect" Matthew 5:48 if it was not possible for us to be so, and then threaten us with punishment for not being so (Hebrews 12:14).
If we do not walk in perfect obedience to the Father it is only because we do not want to.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 16, 2006 12:37:10 GMT -5
I believe we can have perfect obedience. Would one contend that if God askes you to do something that He would not give you grace to do it? We do not have to disobey God.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 16, 2006 13:07:41 GMT -5
I believe we can have perfect obedience. Would one contend that if God askes you to do something that He would not give you grace to do it? We do not have to disobey God. I guess that I would have to agree with you to a certain degree. BUt I would ALSO say that God doesn't require perfect obedience to go to Heaven. If He did, then why did Jesus die on the Cross? Having now been saved by Grace, do we now no longer need that Grace (present and future)? Are you perfectly obedient to God? I know that I am not. Sometimes I am impatient with my children or my wife or I may lose my temper. Sometimes I don't spend as much time in prayer as I probably should. I surely don't witness to every single person that I can. Doesn't sinless perfection also include James 4:17, "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." Who of us can say that we do all the good that we can do? I would say that I don't sin on purpose or blatantly sin against God...therefore I don't practice sin (1 John 3:9). But I do fall and fail God at times that is for sure. That is where Romans 7 would come in I guess... |
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Post by Avery on Jan 16, 2006 17:47:06 GMT -5
Preach parsley....
now that is the best question ever?
What is it exactly that God requires of us...? And how is it that we can truly obey perfectly?
Paul said boldly that he was blameless before the law....
but it was rubbish to him....
so there must be some other obedience that goes hand in hand with this...
You can turn this thread into a very edifying thread by posting Jesus commandments...
those commandments are what God requires of us...
I would I just don't have them all written out....
and I don't have time...
but maybe someone already has them?
I don't think we should ever stop praying, or striving for holiness... but I think it is a fallacy to preach what someone else may have obtained by grace, unless we ourselves have experienced it... especially when it is not an area the Bible specifically addresses outside of the resurrection...
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Post by Avery on Jan 16, 2006 17:54:17 GMT -5
Rev K...
that is my point as well... there are many sinful things a man does because in the flesh he is fallable...
but through the Spirit he is able to perform righteous deeds.... Gal 5:16...
each man owes God one death for his sin.... and unless your flesh is utterly dead... you have not paid God back in full...
however christ paid the penalty of this death for us... and our faith is that though we have died with Christ, we also will be raised with Him, because we died with Him by faith...
our physical death is a debt owed to God, but spiritually we are alive because of christ Jesus... and one day, we will put on the imperishable like him, that is free from sin, and the power of it...
until then, anyone born of flesh is succeptible to the toil of flesh, but we also who have the Spirit have a grat hope at the rersurrection... their is a part of us that is already imperishable, because it has been born of God... and is untainted... outwardly, we are wasting away, but inewardlty we are being renewed day by day, from glory to glory... closer and closer to the resurrection...
This is what the scripture teaches...
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 16, 2006 18:51:04 GMT -5
Hey guys let me jump in here with a question.
Doesn't 1 Corinthians 6:11 encourage us to view sanctification as occuring at the time of justification and not as a subsequent experience?
"9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Also, how can Paul say that the Corinthians were sanctified if it's only instantaneous and not progressive? There's no way that we could consider the Corinthians in perfect obedience, blameless, and free from sin.
I would say that we don't have to sin. That provision has been made for us to be perfectly obedient. The blood of Christ, the grace of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit are on our side. The problem is not on God's end. Yet I don't believe that those who are sanctified cannot sin. I believe you should be 100% holy or 100% repentant. That means "Aim for perfection" (2 Co 13:11) and if you fall short, then repent in godly sorrow and take your aim again. The apostle John says it well:
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)
Steve
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jan 16, 2006 22:31:46 GMT -5
I get these daily emails from IBLP on meditating on the commands of Christ. They are really great. I would highly recommend signing up.
Well boys, here's the standard... Now be edified.
49 Commands of Christ
From Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles(www.IBLP.org)
Repent
“Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).
Follow Me
“Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Matthew 4:19).
Rejoice
“Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matthew 5:11–12).
Let your Light Shine
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
Honor God's Law
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17–18).
Be Reconciled
“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift” (Matthew 5:23–24).
Do Not Lust
“… Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matthew 5:29–30).
Keep your Word
“But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil” (Matthew 5:37).
Go the Second Mile
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.” (Matthew 5:38–42).
Love your Enemies
“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you. and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew 5:44–45).
Be Perfect
“For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:46–48).
Practice Secret Disciplines
“… But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret … When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret … When thou fastest … appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:1–18).
Lay up Treasure in Heaven
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:19–21).
Seek God's Kingdom
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
Judge Not
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:1–3).
Do not Cast Pearls
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” (Matthew 7:6).
Ask Seek Knock
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Matthew 7:7–8).
Do Unto Others
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets” (Matthew 7:12).
Choose the Narrow Way
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13–14).
Beware of False Prophets
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matthew 7:15–16).
Pray for Laborers
“… The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest” (Matthew 9:37–38).
Be Wise as Serpents
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16
Fear God, Not Man
“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
Hear God's Voice
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).
Take my Yoke
“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28–30).
Honor Parents
“For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death” (Matthew 15:4).
Beware of Leaven
“Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6).
Deny Yourself
“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it” (Luke 9:23–24).
Despise Not Little Ones
“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).
Go to Offenders
“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother” (Matthew 18:15).
Beware of Covetousness
“… Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth” (Luke 12:15).
Forgive Offenders
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:21–22).
Honor Marriage
“… Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4–6).
Be a Servant
“But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:26–28).
Be a House of Prayer
“And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves” (Matthew 21:13).
Ask in Faith
“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them” (Mark 11:24).
Bring in the Poor
“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:12–14).
Render to Caesar
“Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:19–21).
Love the Lord
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
Love Your Neighbor
“And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matthew 22:39).
Await my Return
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:42–44).
Take Eat and Drink
“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it” (Matthew 26:26–27).
Be Born Again
“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:7).
Keep My Commandments
“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
Watch and Pray
“Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
Feed my Sheep
John 21:15-16
Baptize my Disciples
Matthew 28:19
Recieve God's Power
Luke 24:49
Make Disciples
Matthew 28:20
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Post by avery on Jan 17, 2006 1:16:11 GMT -5
amen...
it is easy to love,
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 17, 2006 1:38:41 GMT -5
Yes "If" anyone sins. Not when a Christian sins. A Christian can sin, but the scriptures say in 1 Corinthians 10:13 that a Christian doesn't have to sin.
As Duncan Campbell used to say, "You'll never get to the point where it is impossible for you to sin; but praises be to God that you are in a position where it's possible for you not to sin."
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Post by rickb on Jan 17, 2006 9:29:53 GMT -5
First Point: 1. Are children born in sin? Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. From the Westminster Catechism www76.pair.com/lbc/westminster/WLCShortComments/WLC26.htmlSecond Point: 1. Sinless Perfection Many can skin the cat the way that makes the point for either of our arguments, but it (my opinion and my cat) is that perfection this side of heaven cannot be achieved in our lives, Christ said: Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. So that's a pretty tall order to keep and if anyone can then you don't need Christ as a Savior. The problem with this argument (sinlessness) is that it has a very strong chance of coming off as "Sinless Perfection" instead of what we all desire, and that is holiness. Such a fine line here which always comes back to works based salvation and that keeping your salvation is based upon something you do, which is what the Roman church (RC) taught and what many main line evangelicals fall into these days, at that is the problem with focusing on what we must do to stay saved and to be saved. To me the Arminian/Calvin argument and sinless perfection always comes down to, are we saved and kept saved by anything that we do or is by the grace of God alone? The view of many that you will not be sinless in this life is ALWAYS taken out of context by those against (my view anyway) it that it is license to sin, not the case at all. It's funny how Muslims and Mormons believe that you must work your way to heaven and how many evangelicals may say they are totally against those cults but in practice that is where we look much like them when we boil things down to a salvation that is based upon anything I have done and anything I must do also. We must persever to the end and it is by faith in Christ and the working of the spirit in our lives that that happens not by the deeds of the flesh. This is a topic that none of us will solve or "convince" the other of but good points to debate as long as it does not divide |
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 17, 2006 12:22:12 GMT -5
I recommend a good video of Leonard Ravenhil called "Pure Heart, Pure Church" . www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6220Things Ravenhill has said on the topic are things I cannot forget, like "What do you do if someone comes up to you and says 'I want to have clean hands, I want to be pure at heart' what do you say ' sorry, you can't."? And "Christianity is not a sinning religion, it's a victorious religion." |
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 17, 2006 15:50:39 GMT -5
I was reading a Finney sermon today and here is a quote:
The command in the text, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect," is given under the gospel. Christ here commands the very same thing that the law requires. Some suppose that much less is required of us under the gospel, than was required under the law. It is true that the gospel does not require perfection, as the condition of salvation. But no part of the obligation of the law is discharged. The gospel holds those who are under it to the same holiness as those under the law.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 17, 2006 15:52:57 GMT -5
Here is Finney's definition of Christian Perfection.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 17, 2006 16:02:36 GMT -5
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 17, 2006 16:05:29 GMT -5
Amen and thanks for that brother. I have been reading Finney material since 1996 and have been greatly challenged, stirred and blessed by his writings.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 31, 2006 2:51:33 GMT -5
I just have a question for those who believe in process sanctification as opposed to entire sanctification:
If sanctification is a long, slow process a Christian engages in his whole life, but is completed right before he dies, what of those who die at a young age? Is their process speed up before they die?
We all know that one must be holy in order to go and be with God. "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord" and so sometime in between here and then one must get all the sin out of their life. But if it can happen right before you die, could it not also happen long before you die?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 31, 2006 9:12:42 GMT -5
That's a good thought. I think a lot of people are deceived in thinking that they can't really do what God has asked them unless they have been a Christian for X amount of years. This isn't true at all.
Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Obeying the truth or the revelation of Jesus Christ that we have is how we are sanctified. We have to respond to the revelation of Jesus Christ that we have, and ofcourse the longer you are a Christian the more revelation you have so in turn the more responsibility you have.
What we know to do that is "good" we have to do or we are in disobedience and rebellion, not holy and seperated from the world.
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Post by tomah on Jan 31, 2006 13:28:55 GMT -5
So if entirely sanctified, are you as holy as Christ?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 31, 2006 13:36:06 GMT -5
No one can ever be as perfect as Christ. Christ never sinned, we have. Though we have sinned, we don't have to continue to sin. There is freedom from captivity and bondage through Jesus Christ the Lord.
1Jo 4:17 - "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 31, 2006 13:42:13 GMT -5
A lot of people confuse "Christian Perfection" with God's perfection. God has perfect knowledge and wisdom, He is the essense of perfection. The Bible clearly talks about perfection, so the question is not what do we think perfection means (reguardless of what that picture we have of it or what the dictionary says) , but what does the Bible teach that perfection is.
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Post by tomah on Jan 31, 2006 13:46:46 GMT -5
If entirely sanctified though, doesn't that mean that you have grace to walk "as Jesus walked" 1 Jn 2:6
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 31, 2006 14:11:34 GMT -5
I very much like the scripture you quoted:
1 John 2:6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Just to clarify, we are talking about MORAL perfection.
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Post by tomah on Jan 31, 2006 16:04:30 GMT -5
I THINK we believe ALMOST the same thing here, only word it differently. I do believe we can walk in a manner where we "do those things that are pleasing in his sight" where are consciences condemn us not. How ever, I call this blameless, and where scripture refers to our faultlessness it speaks judicially how God sees us in Christ.
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