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Post by rickb on Jan 24, 2006 17:34:16 GMT -5
Have yet to meet anyone who has not sinned, pride man pride, As far as living in fear that you would lose your salvation that is like being a mormon or a muslim, you just never know if you are saved, and that is my whole point, you never know if what you just did made you lose your salvation. Micah, one thing I have learned (from when I had a Arminian view) was that you need to study scripture in it's context and also the structure of the sentence, but thats just me, I still have yet to meet someone who is sinless. 1 John 1:8. oh how could I forget verse 9 though? Thats the one that says you will never sin again. LOL, I wonder how many times you sin getting mad at Calvinist's as you sit at your keyboard sad man very sad.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 24, 2006 21:38:03 GMT -5
The Calvinists accuse the Arminians of having to live in fear of losing their salvation, but likewise Arminians can say that Calvinists likewise could live in fear of not being apart of the "Elect". Maybe you were simply predestined to be a false convert living in false comfort, believing that you are saved when in actually you are a sinner.
My point is, assurance comes by trusting in Christ. So long as an Arminian trusts in Christ he is saved, so long as a Calvinists trusts in Christ he is saved, but if either stop trusting in Christ then there is no salvation.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 24, 2006 21:40:22 GMT -5
We must take a look at 1John 1:8 in context. This is vitally important.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. " 1 John 1:7-10
John Wesley and Charles Finney both have great comments on this text.
John Wesley says that vs 7 and vs 9 is repeating the same truth, and vs 8 and 10 are repeating the same truth.
vs 7 and vs 9 both say that we can be cleansed from all sin. While vs 8 and vs 10 say if we have no sin, or say we have not sinned, we make him a liar. Wesley says this is talking about past sins, not present sins.
Charles Finney makes a great point as to why it must be talking about past sins and not present sins. Vs 9 says if we confess, we are cleansed from all sin. But yet if vs 8 is talking about present sin, and yet you confess and are cleansed of all sin, if you profess to be cleansed from all sin, you are a liar?
So if you confess you will be cleansed from all sin, but if you confess to be cleasned from all sin you are a liar? How does that work?
It makes sense to me that vs 7 and 9 both say you can be cleansed entirely, and vs 8 and vs 10 is talking about past sins.
If we say we have no sin from the past, we decieve ourselves, because all have sinned. But though we have sinned in the past, we don't have to sin in the present or the future. And that is true salvation.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 24, 2006 23:06:09 GMT -5
Rick,
I hope you read the Bible more carefully than you read my posts. Please quote me when I said I have never sinned? I will show you when I said I had sinned. I will even show you where I said I sinned since being a Christian.
As far as being mad at Calvinists, I am not mad at Calvinists at all. I do not agree with some extreme Calvinist positions and definitely lean towards Arminianism, but I am not mad at anyone. If anyone seems mad it is you. I apologized for one post I made that may have been sarcastic and since have been deviod of sarcasm in all my conversation with you. You are the one who continues to insult, accuse, belittle, and be sarcastic. You seem to belittle everything and everyone who is Arminian. You basically said Finney was a heretic, and keep telling me I am sad. Any honest reader of our conversation will see that.
I am thankful for many Calvinists and consider them to be true brothers in the Lord. I am thankful for you also and have expressed that several times but you continue to insult and belittle.
You know I don't know you, I only know what you post, but one could get from your posts that you assume you are the most balanced in your theology of anyone. Arminians are wrong, Finney was a heretic, I am a heretic, and hyper Calvinists are wrong too. You and Calvin are the only ones who are totally in balance and understand everything perfectly. Come on brother! Sorry but there is some truth on both sides.
As far as pride, where do you get that from? When did I ever say I will never sin again or cannot sin? I said I do not commit sin and live obedient. Are you saying you cannot do that?
Why call me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46
Not everyone that saith unto me Lord Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of my Father which is in Heaven. 7:21
Read Paul in Phillipians 3:10-15 (I posted this earlier). Paul said he counted not himself to be perfect (no pride), but continued following and pressing into God. Then in verse 15 he says, "Let US therefore as many as be PERFECT be thus minded..."
Be thus minded to what? To continue pressing toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (v.14). Not sit around and get complacent and full of pride. Not go around bragging about how much we have attained.
Now again what is perfection. Hebrews 5:8-9 "Though He were a Son yet learned He OBEDIENCE by the things which He suffered. And being made PERFECT He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY Him."
Perfection is walking in obedience to God. "whosever abideth in Him sinneth not" 1 John 3:6
I love the Fear of the Lord and desire more of it all the time. It is not bondage but very freeing. It frees me from the fear of man, love of self life, causes me to hate sin, to know God, etc. Yes I live in the Fear of the Lord, but do not walk around in fear of losing my salvation. I obey God out of love. The Fear of God (which comes at least partially from realizing He can cast you into hell-Luke 12:5), causes me to become more intimate with Him and love Him more.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 25, 2006 17:55:08 GMT -5
Here is a really interesting article that explains the lack of historical evidence for OSAS. It's titled: The Inadequate Historical Precedent for “Once Saved, Always Saved”www.fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.htmlHere's a couple quotes from the article: "John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine” [Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity." "In 1998, Hendrickson Publishers printed A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of “Salvation,” we find the question, “Can those who are saved ever be lost?” After several Scriptural passages are quoted [2 Chron 15:2; Ezek 33:12; Matt 10:22; Luke 9:62; 2 Tim 2:12; Heb 10:26; 2 Pet 2:20-21], five pages of quotes are given from the writings of early Christian leaders. These quotes give evidence that the early church did not believe in “once saved, always saved.” They taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God in hell [pp. 586-591]. " The article isn't real long.
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Post by josh on Jan 25, 2006 23:05:31 GMT -5
The Calvinists accuse the Arminians of having to live in fear of losing their salvation, but likewise Arminians can say that Calvinists likewise could live in fear of not being apart of the "Elect". Maybe you were simply predestined to be a false convert living in false comfort, believing that you are saved when in actually you are a sinner. My point is, assurance comes by trusting in Christ. So long as an Arminian trusts in Christ he is saved, so long as a Calvinists trusts in Christ he is saved, but if either stop trusting in Christ then there is no salvation. I presented that to my mate who is studying for a doctrate of theology, and he is a calvinist, and his reply is: "Yes assurance comes by trusting, and we have that internal witness. But a calvinist has the assurance that he was saved in eternity past. No one can trust in God unless He is one of the elect. So a sure fire way to see if you are saved is 'Are you trusting in Christ', if you question if you are or not, the chances are, you are not apart of the elect"
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Post by tomah on Jan 28, 2006 20:55:02 GMT -5
Ok...i'm really mixed up folks. I've always been so sure were I stood theologically since i was saved, but now here i am, it's 1:50 am on the Lord's day and i'm wondering what on earth the bible really teaches! I am beginning to think that it MAY be possible that one can be lost after being saved. However, I cannot believe that Christ died for everybody. I mean if Christ died for Judas then he failed which isn't possible. Also, I see election very clear in scriptures too. I still haven't been convinced that original sin isn't biblical either. Is it possible to be calvanist in everything but saved and lost???
.....c0nFu5eD
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 28, 2006 21:14:09 GMT -5
I would say that God has not failed at all. God succeeded in providing man a way of being forgiven. But I would say that men fail to recieve it. The fault is with man, not with God.
Election and predestination is very much in scripture. But are the conclusions and implications made by Calvin really what they mean?
God chose the nation of Israel. But even after Israels election, God destroyed some of them because of disobedience.
Jude 1:5 - "But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."
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Post by tomah on Jan 28, 2006 21:26:10 GMT -5
Interesting verse there in Jude. So how do you explain election then brother?
Oh I dunno...I need divine guidance big time! You guys don't realise the consequences this would have on my life (not that it bothers me if God shows me clearly that what I believe now is wrong). I am active and well known in our churches as a devout believer and everyone is expecting me to be a minister (not how I feel led, my burden is in pure evangelism) as I am preparing to go to our college in the near future. My denomination is I would say the most faithful in our country when it comes to certain standards and many don't come to our churches because of the reproach they will receive due to the stand our church takes. But if I start to change in the doctrines we've been discussing, it would not be possible for me to continue there, never mind their college, they wouldn't even let me in the door.
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Post by PreachParsley on Jan 29, 2006 14:38:19 GMT -5
Brother, forget about Calvinism or trying to fall in line with any certain type of theology. Believe the Bible and let men label you what ever they want. That's an exhortation to everyone! You may be labeled a heretic, revivalist, or reformer, forget about it. Believe God and follow Him!
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Post by tomah on Jan 29, 2006 16:25:02 GMT -5
Thankyou for that reminder of my duty towards God alone brother. If we are holy and earnest, will know the blessing of our God which is what it's all about really!
Amen!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 29, 2006 16:51:25 GMT -5
I do not have a full explanation yet.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 24, 2006 11:43:45 GMT -5
I have a question. If you believe in "once saved, always saved" is this scripture just a theoretical thought or is it possible?
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 24, 2006 12:05:26 GMT -5
Since no one wanted to respond to this on another thread, I will post it again here ;D
I thought I would bring this up again, since their are new people here and since a lot of the things I brought up formerly were never answered...
Just thought I would start by posting this again:
Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance. Because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime.
Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word õἱïèåóßá (youiothesia) and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children.
Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word óöñáãßæù (sphragizo) and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “isgiven as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word ἀññáâþí (harrabon) and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar.
What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood, that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lost their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus, you must be “Born Again.” If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”?
Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom Heforeknew, He alsopredestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be thefirstborn among many brethren; and these whom Hepredestined, He alsocalled; and these whom He called, He alsojustified; and these whom He justified, He alsoglorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO, not predestined to save- God does NOT choose whom He will save) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven.
Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neitherdeath, nor life, norangels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love? The Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup OSAS in Scripture by any means. I will write more later if need be. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13.
P.S. None of the Greek words turned out right when I copied and pasted to the board...sorry. But the english is in parentheses next to it.
And ADD to it as well:
What about Philippians 1:6, "being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
Can God no longer carry on HIS work of salvation to completion?
John 6:37-40, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will NEVER drive away. For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise them up t the last day. For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Where is there room in that Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
Then there is John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is great than all; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are one."
Same question for this one: Where is there room in this Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him will NEVER thirst. Indeed the water I give him will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
Once the fountain is open, it never runs dry. It is a wellspring of eternal life.
1 Corinthians 1:8-9, "He (Jesus) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."
Can get much clearer than that!
That's it for now gentlemen (and ladies), butI will have more tomorrow! Chew on this for now and tell me how these verses can me anything else but the fact that one CANNOT lose their salvation!
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 24, 2006 15:31:51 GMT -5
RevK,
I think the bulk of material you present here is too much to respond to so it gets bypassed. I personally have come to the conclusion that someone who holds to OSAS w/o falling into antinomianism is not worth debating on this topic. As we've already conceded the application of our views is pretty close. I would debate though with those who hold to OSAS in a way that destroys the requirement of holiness. You, and solid Reformed theology, cannot be charged with license in my opinion.
God Bless
Steve
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Post by Jules on Mar 25, 2006 17:12:08 GMT -5
Election and predestination is very much in scripture. But are the conclusions and implications made by Calvin really what they mean? ." Jesse, just so you know, John Calvin did NOT come up with Calvinism. It is not, contrary to popular Arminian belief, one man's teaching. And I want to make sure you understood this. The 5 points that later became known as Calvinism (because of followers of John Calvin's teachings) came as a result of the Synod of Dort. IN RESPONSE to 5 points of heretical teachings of Arminius. Arminius had five points, that is why 5 points were given to defend the Biblical teaching. These five points are now known as Calvinism, but they were not written, drafted or penned by Calvin himself. Just an FYI.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 25, 2006 17:55:25 GMT -5
I understand that the Calvinistic T.U.L.I.P. 5 points were created to counter-act the five articles of the remonstrants.
What I was referring to was the predestination conclusions Calvin made. Augustine officially established the doctrine that God predestines some to go to Heaven. Calvin went a step further and established the official doctrine that God predestines others to go to hell. And Beza went a step further and said God is the author of sin since He must also predestine men to sin if He is going to predestine their d**nation. (And thereby have a sin in which to punish them for)
The type of predestination I agree with is the predestination Paul wrote about in Romans chapter 9, that God not only choose the Israelites for salvation, but that He also predestined the gentiles for salvation (Romans 9:30). This is general, gentile predestination.
The type of predestination I disagree with and find to be unbiblical is Calvins doctrine of personal predestination, that God personally predestines specific individuals for heaven and specific individuals for hell.
We know that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance and that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they turn and live.
General, gentile predestination is what I see in Romans chapter 9 and is consistent with the rest of the bible, while personal predestination I do not see to be biblical but rather is contradictory rather then consistent.
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Mar 25, 2006 23:57:36 GMT -5
Jesse, John Piper once offered an anology that discusses how God expresses His will in two different ways. It might help clear up your questions regarding predestination:
The way I would give an account of this is explained by Robert L. Dabney in an essay written over a hundred years ago. His treatment is very detailed and answers many objections that go beyond the limits of this chapter. I will simply give the essence of his solution which seems to me to be on the right track, though he, as well as I, would admit we do not "furnish an exhaustive explanation of this mystery of the divine will."
Dabney uses an analogy from the life of George Washington taken from Chief-Justice Marshall's Life of Washington. A certain Major André had jeopardized the safety of the young nation through "rash and unfortunate" treasonous acts. Marshall says of the death warrant, signed by Washington, "Perhaps on no occasion of his life did the commander-in-chief obey with more reluctance the stern mandates of duty and of policy." Dabney observes that Washington's compassion for André was "real and profound". He also had "plenary power to kill or to save alive." Why then did he sign the death warrant? Dabney explains, "Washington's volition to sign the death-warrant of André did not arise from the fact that his compassion was slight or feigned, but from the fact that it was rationally counterpoised by a complex of superior judgments . . . of wisdom, duty, patriotism, and moral indignation [the wide-angle lens]."
Dabney imagines a defender of André, hearing Washington say, "I do this with the deepest reluctance and pity." Then the defender says, "Since you are supreme in this matter, and have full bodily ability to throw down that pen, we shall know by your signing this warrant that your pity is hypocritical." Dabney responds to this by saying, "The petulance of this charge would have been equal to its folly. The pity was real, but was restrained by superior elements of motive. Washington had official and bodily power to discharge the criminal, but he had not the sanctions of his own wisdom and justice." The corresponding point in the case of divine election is that "the absence of volition in God to save does not necessarily imply the absence of compassion." God has "a true compassion, which is yet restrained, in the case of the . . . non-elect, by consistent and holy reasons, from taking the form of a volition to regenerate." God's infinite wisdom regulates his whole will and guides and harmonizes (not suppresses) all its active principles."
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Post by Grant on Mar 26, 2006 10:12:06 GMT -5
I appreciate the quote, Jeff. But I must be an idiot because though it describes GOD's compassion for those thrown into Hell (which we probably all would agree with), I don't see the parallel with the 'elect' and 'non-elect' as expressed in TULIP. Could you expound on it for me, please? Thanks, bro.
Btw: The last sentence sounds more like Finney's Systematic Theology.
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