If Calvinism Is True....

[Grant]

amen, Jesse

[josh]

Good scripture Jesse!

[Evan Schaible]

Just a quick note, If calvinism is true and a Christian cannot fall away or backslide, please explain for me why I backslide sometimes. Am I not a genuine Christian? Now, four of the five points of calvinism I do agree with, the fifth point obviously is eternal security. Maybe we could say something like this, your eteranlly secure when your in eternity.

[josh]

Evan said:

Just a quick note, If calvinism is true and a Christian cannot fall away or backslide, please explain for me why I backslide sometimes. Am I not a genuine Christian? Now, four of the five points of calvinism I do agree with, the fifth point obviously is eternal security. Maybe we could say something like this, your eteranlly secure when your in eternity.

Its impossible to hold to the other 4 points of Calvinism, and disagree with the 5 th.

Check this out:

T - Total Depravity: Human beings are so affected by the negative consequences of original sin that they are incapable of being righteous, and are always and unchangeably sinful; human freedom is totally enslaved by sin so we can only choose evil.

U - Unconditional Election: Since human beings cannot choose for themselves, God by His eternal decree has chosen or elected some to be counted as righteous, without any conditions being placed on that election.

L - Limited Atonement: The effects of the Atonement, by which God forgave sinful humanity, are limited only to those whom He has chosen.

I - Irresistible Grace: The grace that God extends to human beings to effect their election cannot be refused, since it has been decreed by God.

P - Perseverance of the Saints: Since God has decreed the elect, and they cannot resist grace, they are unconditionally and eternally secure in that election.

Now if you disagree with the 5 th point, then you must disagree with points 2, 3, 4 as well. Since they all deal with the elect, or those who are predestined to be saved. Now if they are correct, and God has chose whom He will save, then it is impossible to lose salvation, because if someone who is elected can lose salvation, then it should be clear that they were never chosen in the first place, thus collasping the Reformed argument.

[Re If Calvinism Is True]

You see, the first second and third are clearly taught if you take them out of the context of the fifth. You can be a saint and yet fall, you can be elect and still fall from grace or "shipwreck" your faith. This is very possible and happens quite frequently today which is a tragedy. All but the fifth of the five points are not calvinism, but biblical and sound interpretation of scripture. We need to really beware of "I am of Paul, I am of apollos" theology. I am not calvinist, or arminean, or lutheran or any other -an or ism. Unless of course you say Christian the I am an -an. If the bible says it then I believe it, even if I cant fully understand it.

[evanschaible]

sry, that last one was me I put the wrong stuff in the little yellow box.
I do believe that four of the five points of calvinism are taught in the bible, is that really that hard to fathom when taken out of the context of eternal security. (verses paraphrased, sry guys no time to look them up)

T- are not men hearts wicked and every imagination evil continually? havent all sinned and fallen short of Gods glory? I do belive mans hearts are entirely wicked until conversion.

U-Are there few who will be saved? narrow is the way and few there be that find it. No man can come to the son unless the father draw him.

L-I am not a universalist

I- I couldnt refuse the wooing of the Holy Ghost. No sinner turned saint can refuse this doctrine. If you have come to Christ then you have to admit this is true.

P- Here is the problem, we cant seem to take this doctrine away from the others and call it what it is, PERSEVERANCE. We cannot be plucked from Jesus hand, but we can bite it when he tries to feed us.

[josh]

Evan,

Mate you aren't describin calvinistic doctrine. Its impossible to hold to other points of TULIP, yet deny P.

U - means that God has chosen some to be saved, so as a result other having no say, end up in hell.

L - This dictates that Christ didn't die for all but only for those whom He predesitned. Basically those that fall under U.

I - You cannot refuse Christ, once God has chosen you. You cannot say, 'No I don't want to be saved'

Now if you believe in TULIP theology you must hold to P, or deny the other points.

So under TULIP teaching you, cannot lose salvation, or fall away. Because it goes against every point of U L I P of the teaching.

[evanschaible]

I have been much grieved about the heated debates here on this subject especially. So here, I have endeavored to put to silence the naysayers. The sovereignty of God is really the issue being debated. We can go around and around but one thing proves the sovereignty of God, your prayers. Even Armenians believe in God’s sovereignty, they just don't know it yet, as J. I. Packer put it. The first chapter in Packer’s book ‘Evangelism and the sovereignty of God’ is the best refutation of anti sovereign grace I have ever seen. I won’t cite it here, I will leave it up to you to read it.
If you have the time please take the time to read through my simple minded attempt to maybe put to silence this debate with soundness of theology and doctrine. I believe with all my heart that 4 point Calvinism and Arminenianism can be harmonized. By four point Calvinism I mean belief in all four points except ‘eternal security’. Let me explain.

Let me begin by saying this is not a personal attack on anyone in this board, rather my feeble attempt to clear things up, and hopefully fully state my opinion with clarity and soundness. It is not my style to quote other works, but I feel it is necessary here. The scripture I have chosen is:

“3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

"4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

"5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

"6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

"7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

"8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;"

"9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"

"10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

"11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

"12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

"13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

"14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians ch.1 vv. 3-14

Since the majority of people on this board are Armenianist, I will use a few quotations from John Wesley’s commentary on this particular passage of Scripture. Not every verse will be used in this exposition but I wanted to set the stage contextually.

Verse four uses this statement, ‘According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:’ Wesley says of this particular passage, ‘Both Jews and gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ’. I Peter 1:2 agrees, ‘Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.’

All these things are said to be ‘according to the foreknowledge of God’. Sanctification, the sprinkling of the blood, all foreknew by God the Father. This is an irrefutable fact.

Verse five, ‘Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,’ Since again Wesley seems to have the most authority in this board, he says, ‘Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.’

Now here many of you say, “ha, see, he says ‘all who should believe on Christ…’” You would be right, but lets remember here we are speaking of adoption, wholly another experience beside conversion. For illustrations on adoption being a different experience than conversion, read into David Brainerd’s journal. The Indian’s felt what Brainerd called ‘the Spirit of adoption’ under one of his sermons and cried out and wept.

Notice also, ‘according to the good pleasure of his will’. Every second of everyday is planned from the foundation of the world, that means all who would be birthed anew by the Spirit would be also included in that plan. In fact as I write this now, God knew I would be writing it in this very room, at this very moment, for this very purpose, and he planned it that way for his will and glory.

Verse six, ‘To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.’ I take this to mean that these things were done that God may be pleased with himself and others may give him glory. All of God’s decrees are for his good pleasure, which means all of God’s doings are to bring glory to himself. We are to praise God in all things, ‘in all things give God praise’.

Verse seven, ‘In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;’ This seems to say that the accepted fact still stands that salvation is not possible outside of Jesus. In him we have redemption through is blood. This is according to the riches of his grace, ‘Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;’ Again, he has abounded these things toward us, totally erasing the works of man in salvation. His wisdom and prudence guides all things, even salvation. Wesley again says here, ‘In all wisdom - Manifested by God in the whole scheme of our salvation. And prudence - Which he hath wrought in us, that we may know and do all his acceptable and perfect will.’

Verse nine, ‘Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:’ Now again to cite Wesley on this passage, ‘Having made known to us - By his word and by his Spirit. The mystery of his will - The gracious scheme of salvation by faith, which depends on his own sovereign will alone. This was but darkly discovered under the law; is now totally hid from unbelievers; and has heights and depths which surpass all the knowledge even of true believers.’
So again this verse totally denies anti-sovereign salvationary grace, But here too introduces the duty of man to preach the Word so that the Spirit can work in us the greatest miracle known to man. New birth is sovereign, and if anyone denies this than they ought to examine themselves to see if they are born again. Also again here we have God doing everything to his own good pleasure and for his own glory.

Verse eleven, ‘In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:’ Here is where Wesley seems to stray from the point and get a little confused.
He says, “Through whom we - Jews. Also have obtained an inheritance - The glorious inheritance of the heavenly Canaan, to which, when believers, we were predestinated according to the purpose of him that worketh all things after the counsel of his own will - The unalterable decree, "He that believeth shall be delivered;" which will is not an arbitrary will, but flowing from the rectitude of his nature, else, what security would there be that it would be his will to keep his word even with the elect?”

Wesley seems to confuse himself. The very word arbitrary is what would secure his word being kept. Arbitrary means, ‘subject to individual will or judgement; discretionary’. I choose to fully trust God’s judgement and will, do you not? God and his individual judgement and will control this entire universe. Also notice Wesley uses the word elect, we sometimes try to separate elect from election. So far everything is for God’s glory and planned ‘before the foundations of the world’ according to his will and purposes. ALL THINGS is the key phrase.

Verse twelve and thirteen, ‘That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,’

This is where the paradox is introduced and divisions are caused. We must believe, we must have faith and we must endure to the end. But God gives us faith, God gives us repentance and God gives us power to endure to the end, ‘ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit’. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement. Godly sorrow worketh repentance, not to be repented of. By the Holy Spirit we can pray, preach, understand God’s word, live a holy life and everything else necessary. This is where the difficulty between the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God surfaces.

Wesley says of verse twelve, “That we - Jews. Who first believed - Before the gentiles. So did some of them in every place. Here is another branch of the true gospel predestination: he that believes is not only elected to salvation, (if he endures to the end,) but is fore - appointed of God to walk in holiness, to the praise of his glory.”

So you see here, even in Wesleyan theology, predestination is part of the true Gospel. But again we have the paradoxical mystery, sovereignty and free will. He that endures to the end shall be saved, but who gives you the power to endure? Paradox? Or God’s high and lofty thoughts that cannot be our own?
Wesley says of verse thirteen, “In whom ye - Gentiles. Likewise believed, after ye had heard the gospel - Which God made the means of your salvation; in whom, after ye had believed - Probably some time after their first believing. Ye were sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise - Holy both in his nature and in his operations, and promised to all the children of God. The sealing seems to imply,
1. A full impression of the image of God on their souls.
2. A full assurance of receiving all the promises, whether relating to time or eternity. “


Here too we have God doing all, and man doing nothing but submitting. That is the secret of Christian life, we obey what God tells us to do. But we can’t obey, so we have to trust God to give us the power to obey. Every good thing is a gift from above, every thing we need to do God’s will, and grow up in him he will give us. Faith in his promises and ultimately faith in him is the key. You see, all we do is ‘hear the word of truth’ and exercise the faith that God has given us.
Verse fourteen, ‘Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.’

Wesley says here, “Who, thus sealing us, is an earnest - Both a pledge and a foretaste of our inheritance. Till the redemption of the purchased possession - Till the church, which he has purchased with his own blood, shall be fully delivered from all sin and sorrow, and advanced to everlasting glory. To the praise of his glory - Of his glorious wisdom, power, and mercy.”

I hope this clears things up enough to avoid personal attacks and religious wisecracks. But there is one more point I would like to make, Who gave you the urge to come to Christ? Who gave you the urge to pray? Who gave you the urge to read your bible and live holy? The answers to these questions should definitely prove that God is sovereign. But here again we face the problem that philosophical thinking cannot prove scriptural points. So let me now use scripture to prove scriptural points.

John 15:16, “ Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

Wesley says of this verse, “Ye - My apostles, have not chosen me, but I have chosen you - As clearly appears from the sacred history: and appointed you, that ye may go and bear fruit - I have chosen and appointed you for this end, that ye may go and convert sinners: and that your fruit may remain - That the fruit of your labours may remain to the end of the world; yea, to eternity; that whatsoever ye shall ask - The consequence of your going and bearing fruit will be, that all your prayers will he heard.”

This verse is of universal application to all of us and is reminiscent of God’s words to Jeremiah, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.”
Romans 9:11, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;”

Wesley says of this verse, “The apostle mentions this to show, that neither were their ancestors accepted through any merit of their own. That the purpose of God according to election might stand - Whose purpose was, to elect or choose the promised seed. Not of works - Not for any preceding merit in him he chose. But of him that called - Of his own good pleasure who called to that privilege whom he saw good.”

This, like most of the Bible, gives us a glimpse in how God does things. Here he does things, like we have seen, according to the election and according to his good pleasure. We may not understand, but one day ‘all things hidden will be brought to magnificent light.’

Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
Wesley says of this verse, “Whom he foreknew, he also predestinated conformable to the image of his Son - Here the apostle declares who those are whom he foreknew and predestinated to glory; namely, those who are conformable to the image of his Son. This is the mark of those who are foreknown and will be glorified” So here again Wesley speaks of God’s foreknowledge.

Romans 9:15,16, “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.” This is cited by Paul from Exodus 33:19. Paul tells us here plain as the sun on a bright summers day, it is not of anything man does, but ‘God that showeth mercy’.

Wesley says of verse 16, “It - The blessing. Therefore is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth - It is not the effect either of the will or the works of man, but of the grace and power of God. The will of man is here opposed to the grace of God, and man's running, to the divine operation. And this general declaration respects not only Isaac and Jacob, and the Israelites in the time of Moses, but likewise all the spiritual children of Abraham, even to the end of the world.”

Romans 9:18 “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Just like God hardened hearts of men throughout scripture, he is still in control of everything from the mosquito to the sun.

Here is God’s question to all that reject his sovereignty, “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” Next God answers the question for you saying, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:19-21

Romans 9:22-24, “What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

II Thessalonians 2:13, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

Wesley says of this verse, “God hath from the beginning - Of your hearing the gospel. Chosen you to salvation - Taken you out of the world, and placed you in the way to glory.” Again Wesley admits the sovereignty of God in grace.

In conclusion, since my eyes are heavy in writing I want to now pose a challenge to all who would take it. It is a challenge that Brother Ravenhill introduced to me, and it has stuck with me, and will stick with me forever. He said that this is the supreme challenge of Satan to every believer, and it brought me out of Armenianism after much grief and many sleepless nights of not knowing what to do to be saved, ‘Come down from the cross and save yourself’. Allow me to add something, ‘since God is not sovereign, you must come down from the cross and save yourself.’ May this sad attempt to explain a doctrine be a blessing to all who read it. Again I hope through this to not have offended anyone. My duty was to write this to settle what has and will be debated forever. But I will stick to what J. C. Ryle once said, “I think there is room in heaven for both the Calvinists and the Armnenianists.” Thank you Brother Ryle and thank you to all who have read this. Now I bid you happy refuting.

[Steve Noel]

Evan,

You misconstrue the issue here. The issue is not whether or not God is sovereign. This is a favorite Calvinist ploy to frame the debate in a way that makes it sound absurd to be anything but Calvinist. The real issue is how does a God of holy love express his sovereingty. Calvinism subjects the love of God to the will and power of God. In doing so the Calvinist unwittingly falls dangerously close to the Muslim concept of God. J.I. Packer is a well known Calvinist who has written that Arminianism is heresy. Hardly an unbiased writer. You have rightly hit on the issue as being about sovereignty, but you have misunderstood the nature of the debate. It's not Calvinism defending God's sovereignty against Arminianism defending man's rights. The issue is much deeper and concerns the very character of God. The root of this debate involves two very different views of God.

Let me ask a question concerning Genesis 2:19

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

How did God exercise his sovereignty here? Is sovereignty equivalent to determinism or absolute control? Can not God sovereignly choose to limit his sovereignty?

You see the issue is not about who is sovereign. The issues is what is the biblical concept of sovereignty. If you research Calvinism you'll find that it goes back to Augustine. If you research Augustine you'll find that he developed his view of God's sovereignty from Greek philosophy. Calvinism imposes this philosophical view of God's sovereignty upon the Scriptures instead of drawing their view of God's sovereignty from the Scriptures.


Steve

[josh]

Evan,

Mate go study Calvinism a bit more, and you will see that you cannot hold to 4 points, and deny the 5th.

Now let me say, God is Sovereign, and He is in Control! But like Steve said, how does God exercise His sovereign rule?

[tomah]

God exercises His soverign will soverignly. As Joseph said, "Ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good"

[Evan]

Steve, You mentioned "mans rights". In my view the only right man has is to give up his rights.

I like what A. W. Tozer said, God soverignly decreed mans freedom to choose.

But herein lies the paradox, does man have free-will?
I dont think so and here is why. Throughout life man is either under satans power, or Gods. The only choice we have is choosing under whose authority we will reside. If we choose evil, satan controls us, we are "slaves to sin" If we choose good, God controls us, we are "bondservants of Christ." Show me the free-will in this.

[evanschaible]

I guess if you want to label me reformed, go ahead. I do believe that if one submits to God's rule, he will never fall away. Simply by looking unto Jesus and trusting God's merciful and holy hand we are safe from falling away. I dont want the arminiean Jesus or the calvinist Jesus, I want the Jesus of the bible. The Jesus of the bible says, none shall pluck them from my hand.

[Rick]

admin said:

P.S. I'm not so sure whether a genuine Christian can backslide or not.

Well, I know that I am capable of leaving the Lord if I choose to. Adam walked with God, but then decided to sin rather than obey God.

The Apostle Peter taught that you could backslide.

"Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." 2 Peter 2:15

Here the Apostle Peter teaches that you can actually forsake the right way.

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." 2 Peter 2:20

Here the Apostle Peter teaches that you can escape the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ, and then be entangled back again in the world, and your end is worse then if you had not gotten saved in the first place.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Peter 2:21

Here the Apostle Peter teaches you can "turn from" it.

The Apostle Paul taught in other places, besides the scriptures I listed above, where He taught one could backslide.

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be taught worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of God." Hebrews 10:29

And, "Now the just shall live by faith, but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe unto the saving of the soul." Hebrews 10:38-39

Paul again teaches that you could "draw back". He uses the word "if" because it's possible to draw back, and it is possible to "continue in the faith" Acts 14:22

If one can "draw back unto perdition" where was he before he drew back? He must not have been in a spiritual state that would have lead him to death.

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse.... can a person backslide yes but do they lose salvation? No. I know your doctrine says yes (if I understand you right) then you need to get saved again and again again..how many times must we crucify Christ? The points you give below would SEEM to prove your case for backsliding which I believe it is possible to backslide (I mean David did and God did not remove his mercy from him, 2 Sam 7:15) but these versus speak to those that are not saved and the fate or condition of those that were never saved

2 Peter 2:15

They never had salvation, it says they forsook the truth, it does not say they were believers, we preach to people all the time the truth and they forsake it, does that mean they are now backsliders?? it says because of false teachers many will be swept away by the false teachers, it says nothing of those that are saved besides John 6:39 says And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


2 Peter 2:20

outward appearance of reform does not mean reform or change, a dog returns to it's vomit, why? It's still a dog, a pig that is washed returns to the foul mess it wallows in, why it is still a pig..point being they were never saved, just knowing the truth does not make one saved, back to my example above many we talk to on the streets know the truth does that make them saved...nope

2 Peter 2:21

same as above but I will jump to your more meatier opposition.

Hebrews 10:38-39


Look at Habakkuk 2:4 which Paul is being referenced here

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The soul was NOT upright so it was not a redeemed person now withdrawing


Habakkuk states the cause of drawing back: a soul lifted up, and in self-inflated unbelief setting itself up against God.

Paul, by the Spirit, states the effect, it draws back


Those that are saved will persevere until the end, by get this BY THE GRACE OF GOD, not by our own doing, we did nothing to be saved we can do nothing to lose it.

In Christ

[Rick]

Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation?

One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation. Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy (“falls away”) and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for “once saved, always saved.” In light of the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God’s care? There have been three main approaches to the question:











1. Classic Arminianism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”





2. Antinomianism

• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”




3. Classic Calvinism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.

• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.



“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”







Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).



Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side:







1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People

God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.

• Colossians 1:21-23

• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6

• Hebrews 10:26-31

• Hebrews 12:1



2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People

We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.



• John 6:38-40

• John 10:28-29

• Romans 8:28-39

• Philippians 1:4-6

• Philippians 2:12-13

• 1 John 2:19









This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrews 10:39).







“They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47


gregscouch.homestead.com/files/eternalsecurity.htm

[Jesse Morrell]

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse.... can a person backslide yes but do they lose salvation? No

And so backsliders go to Heaven??

But the bible teaches this:

And, "Now the just shall live by faith, but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe unto the saving of the soul." Hebrews 10:38-39

Rick, what does it mean when they "draw back unto perdition"? Your saying, you can draw back but it is not unto perdition??

[Rick]

josh said:

Evan said:

Just a quick note, If calvinism is true and a Christian cannot fall away or backslide, please explain for me why I backslide sometimes. Am I not a genuine Christian? Now, four of the five points of calvinism I do agree with, the fifth point obviously is eternal security. Maybe we could say something like this, your eteranlly secure when your in eternity.

Its impossible to hold to the other 4 points of Calvinism, and disagree with the 5 th.

Check this out:

T - Total Depravity: Human beings are so affected by the negative consequences of original sin that they are incapable of being righteous, and are always and unchangeably sinful; human freedom is totally enslaved by sin so we can only choose evil.

U - Unconditional Election: Since human beings cannot choose for themselves, God by His eternal decree has chosen or elected some to be counted as righteous, without any conditions being placed on that election.

L - Limited Atonement: The effects of the Atonement, by which God forgave sinful humanity, are limited only to those whom He has chosen.

I - Irresistible Grace: The grace that God extends to human beings to effect their election cannot be refused, since it has been decreed by God.

P - Perseverance of the Saints: Since God has decreed the elect, and they cannot resist grace, they are unconditionally and eternally secure in that election.

Now if you disagree with the 5 th point, then you must disagree with points 2, 3, 4 as well. Since they all deal with the elect, or those who are predestined to be saved. Now if they are correct, and God has chose whom He will save, then it is impossible to lose salvation, because if someone who is elected can lose salvation, then it should be clear that they were never chosen in the first place, thus collasping the Reformed argument.

Evan I am not attacking you but Josh is right, the 5 points stand together, divided they fall.

many a greta men though said they were 4 pointers

J.C. Ryle is off the top of my head

[Rick]

admin said:

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse.... can a person backslide yes but do they lose salvation? No

And so backsliders go to Heaven??

But the bible teaches this:

And, "Now the just shall live by faith, but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe unto the saving of the soul." Hebrews 10:38-39

Rick, what does it mean when they "draw back unto perdition"? Your saying, you can draw back but it is not unto perdition??

Did you read the whole post???

[Rick]

Hebrews 10:38-39


Look at Habakkuk 2:4 which Paul is being referenced here

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The soul was NOT upright so it was not a redeemed person now withdrawing


Habakkuk states the cause of drawing back: a soul lifted up, and in self-inflated unbelief setting itself up against God.

Paul, by the Spirit, states the effect, it draws back


Full counsel of God Jesse, context context context.

[Rick]

P.S.

My understanding though is that you cannot lose salvation,

2 Sam 7:15

it is the covenant of grace and redemption.

Like I said you did nothing to earn salvation you can do nothing to lose it.

Living in the fear of losing your salvation based on what you do is much akin to being a Mormon or a Muslim....they just don't know if they have been good enough, yet the bible tells us we are not good enough many many times, yet many people think that after they are saved (as if it was something they did) that they must now revert back and do something to keep themselves in the faith.

The book of John is a great book for those wondering who saved them (I mean who's work it was) in particular chapter 6,

I also like Romans chapter 8, those that would try to keep their salvation by the works of the flesh are performing carnal works which lead nowhere.

The reformation is based on grace alone, but most (I said most and did not paint with my brush wide) who disagree with reformation paint it as a doctrine of free and wanton sin when they have never (yes I said never) tried to understand it.

Grace alone, through faith and that not of yourselves, we didn't save ourselves and we can't keep ourselves in the faith.

[Juli]

evanschaible said:

Brother I challenge you to find for me a scripture proof for eternal security that is not directly linked with obediance.

There are numerous verses that speak to eternal security, or perserverence of the saints, whatever you want to call it, that don't even mention man's part, and many speak to BOTH: God's faithfulness and character, and man's responsibility or obedience. This isn't an either/or choice brothers, it is BOTH doctrines in truth laying side by side in the Bible. Don't feel compelled to choose one over the other in our attempt to understand it. It is a mystery that has been debated throughout church history.

God is sovereign, chooses us, we hear the word, faith comes from hearing, etc. It is ALL true. Now, do we continue arguing amongst ourselves on how to reconcile things in our finite minds, or do we pray for wisdom and preach the gospel anyway? Because we ACT on what we know to be true: faith DOES come from hearing the Word of God, God chooses to use MEN to deliver the gospel message, and God alone knows the hearts of men and who are His children. God gives the increase, remember? Not us.

If we knew, as Spurgeon said, who was elect and who wasn't, then we would only preach to them. But God didn't see fit to tell us, so that we tell the whole world. If we knew, we would choose men based on things like the Jews chose Saul as their king. But God chose the lowly, despised, etc. Would we really be able to identify the elect if that responsibility were up to us? So we tell all, knowing that God will save the remnant.

A good book that I read, after pouring over scripture of course, was J.I. Packer's "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" It is his attempt to reconcile the issue of man's responsibility working alongside God's sovereignty. (In other words, 100% God + 100% man) An eye opener.

[SlowBro]

admin said:

If Calvinism is true, it makes no sense calling sinners to repent.

If Calvinism is true, it makes no sense to weep over lost souls going to hell.

If you are a hyper-calvinist, then yes it makes no sense.

However a calvinist in the Spurgeon and Whitefield tradition:
1.) Has no idea who the elect really are and witnesses to everyone.
2.) Knows that God ordains the ends and the means. The ends and the means. The ends and the means. The ends are saved sinners and the means are tracts, evangelists, sermons, witnessing encounters, weeping over the lost in prayer, etc.

So I am deeply convicted that all Calvin's five points are correct and yet I witness my head off.


It would behoove you to be aware of the differences between calvinism and hyper-calvinism. Spurgeon was as outspoken against hyper-calvinism as arminianism.


By the way, I hate the term calvinist. I would rather be known as a Christian who agrees with Calvin than a calvinist. The latter sounds too much like man worship.

[Kerrigan]

cdevidal...do you literally witness your head off? Because it sure looks like it from your picture...hehe...sorry, couldn't help myself ;D

[Juli]

When thinking about salvation, and who gets the "credit" for it, most Christians would say that God does. yet they live as if they themselves were responsible for it in part at least. For me, I asked myself this question: who does get the credit?

If I err in my beliefs about election, salvation, etc. I'd like to err on the side of giving God the greatest glory possible - giving HIM full credit for all aspects of my salvation, from start to finish and everything in between. This way, I have not robbed him of any glory due him. And of course, as a result of his grace to me, I am obedient, faithful to Him all the days of my life. It is interesting to note that it is Jesus himself who presents us blameless, holy, and spotless. (Jude 24, Col 1:22) Just something to chew on.

[SlowBro]

revk said:

cdevidal...do you literally witness your head off? Because it sure looks like it from your picture...hehe...sorry, couldn't help myself ;D

((Rimshot))

[Miles Lewis]

The Spurgeons and Whitefields may have been calvinists in theology but they were arminian in practice. I believe it was Spurgeon who was accused of being an arminian because he told people to repent.

[tomah]

Yeah brother Miles,

When the truth is preached, we're all Arminians in a sense and when we pray we're all Calvinists!

[SlowBro]

mileslewis said:

The Spurgeons and Whitefields may have been calvinists in theology but they were arminian in practice. I believe it was Spurgeon who was accused of being an arminian because he told people to repent.

LOL how does that make one an Arminian? That makes one Biblical! A hyper-Calvinist thinks the sinner must do nothing.

Please, know the difference. Otherwise you're burning straw men.

[SlowBro]

armen said:

When the truth is preached, we're all Arminians in a sense and when we pray we're all Calvinists!

Yeah that brings up a good point. How exactly do Arminians pray for the lost?

I pray something like, "God, please open up their eyes" which I'm pretty sure is Biblical.

LOL, Do you pray something like, "God, please show them the truth, please bring them close to the truth BUT DON'T INTERFERE WITH THEIR DECISION!" ;D

Tell me, how does a typical Arminian prayer for the lost go? Not going to attack you, I'm just curious.

[Josh Parsley]

I pray that God would convict them. I beleive that God has to 'move upon them' to be saved. But I believe that the person must yeild or be humble to be born again. I think it is possible to resist the Holy Ghost.. or grieve Him away. I know I did for many years.