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Post by Kerrigan on Sept 16, 2008 16:05:52 GMT -5
This is very sad. A Christian music artist who has 4 children and was married to his wife for 33 years has come out and said that he is a homosexual. He actually says that he was born that way too! What a lie that is. If he really believes that he was born that way, I wonder if he was having a homosexual affair on his wife those 33 years? CLICK HERE to read the report about his "coming out". The Human Genome Project, concluded that there is NO HOMO GENE. CLICK HERE to read more about that.
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Post by dale on Sept 16, 2008 17:19:14 GMT -5
Never heard of him
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Post by debonnaire on Sept 17, 2008 5:28:48 GMT -5
I know many singers and groups of the Christian circuit, but never heard of this one either.
No one is born homosexual , otherwise we could say that children and even babies can be homosexual which of course is ridiculous. What man practises is what defines man.
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Post by prespilot68 on Sept 18, 2008 22:32:31 GMT -5
I grew up listening to Ray and this is so sad. Another sign that many will turn from the truth in the later days
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Post by evilart on Sept 19, 2008 15:02:24 GMT -5
So what. Who cares.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 20, 2008 20:35:04 GMT -5
News tip - Washington DC Bureau - Controversial Christian group to protest openly gay Christian singer's first concert Assignment Editor, The controversial Christian group “Bible Believers” has announced they will be outside of Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) in Washington DC this Sunday, Sept. 21, to protest the return concert of Christian music icon Ray Boltz. Boltz stunned the conservative Christian music world in 2004 when he came out publicly as gay. This will be Boltz’s first large concert since he left performing four years ago after announcing he is gay. Bible Believers are known to make themselves a vocal and visible (and often unpopular) presence at LGBT events with bullhorns and large banners that read “Homo sex is sin” and “Turn or Burn!” They are considered an anti-LGBT organization. MCC is described as an international fellowship of Christian churches (250 congregations in 23 countries) and are known for their special outreach to LGBT communities. MCC is considered a pro-LGBT organization. Boltz, 55, had sold more than 4.5 million CDs and tapes over a 20 year career in the contemporary Christian Music world. He had 12 number one hits as a singer and song writer on conservative Christian radio. In 2004, came out to his wife and four children as gay. This ended Boltz’s 33 year marriage and caused him to take a self imposed four year hiatus from performing. Boltz's concert on Sunday is titled “Homecoming Celebration” and Boltz has publicly thanked MCC for making him feel welcome after he announced he was gay – and at a time when he felt rejected by other Christian organizations and many of his former listeners. Bible Believers and MCC have been at odds for many years in their polarized interpretation of the Bible and how Christian churches should address LGBT issues. Event: Ray Boltz return concert “Homecoming” at Metropolitan Community Church Date and Time: Sept. 21. The MCC will hold regularly scheduled service from 9 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. , with a potluck dinner following the service. Ray Boltz concert is scheduled to begin at 3 p.m. (The Bible Believers have stated they will be at MCC from noon to 5:00 p.m. ) Location: MCC, 474 Ridge Street N. W. , Washington , DC, 20001. (Bible Believers group will be assembled on the sidewalk in front of the church.) Contact information for MCC: Cecelia Hayden, (202) 638-7373, email churchoffice@mccdc.com, website www.mccdc.com Contact information for Ray Boltz: Ray Boltz Music (765) 288-6674, website www.rayboltz.com Contact information for Bible Believers: Ruben Israel (562) 619-7363, email irebukeu@earthlink.net, website www.officialstreetpreachers.com Images: GMW has attached sample low resolution images of Ray Bolz and Bible Believers. High resolution images can be emailed or uploaded to an FTP site upon request. (Please designate type of image file needed.) Quotes: “How can a person give up a wife of 33 years, a son and three daughters for sex with another man? And be considered a hero? Only in a perverted Church will this type of perversion be accepted” (Ruben Israel, spokesman for Bible Believers) “God is not tolerant of sin, never has been, never will be. Nowhere in the Bible do we even find the word “tolerance” let alone see a Holy God winking at sin. Where was God’s tolerance when He flooded the world with water, or was God all forgiving when He burned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah?” (Ruben Israel, spokesman for Bible Believers) "A few years ago I made the decision to retire from contemporary Christian music. I had won awards, performed in front of thousands of people, and sold millions of records. Still, i believed that if people knew who I really was, I would never be accepted." (Ray Bolts on leaving Christian music) "(GMW asked Ruben Israel if he was concerned about Ray Boltz living a lie, living with depression, and his taking Prozac to keep from committing suicide.) “He is now a dead man walking, dead from his savior and soon to be in hellfire,” said Israel. “I do not feel sorry for him. The real victims are his wife, children and grandchildren. If Jesus would say something about the Ray Boltz today, it would be, Father do not forgive him because he knows exactly what he is doing." (Ruben Israel, spokesman for Bible Believers)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 20, 2008 20:39:27 GMT -5
When stuff like this happens, why don't Christians give their normal excuses?
"Nobodies perfect" "We are only human" "You can't stop sinning" "We have a sinful nature" "God's law is impossible" "Even the Apostle Paul sinned" etc
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Post by Kerrigan on Sept 20, 2008 20:50:22 GMT -5
When stuff like this happens, why don't Christians give their normal excuses? "Nobodies perfect" "We are only human" "You can't stop sinning" "We have a sinful nature" "God's law is impossible" "Even the Apostle Paul sinned" etc That's a good question! Just shows the inconsistency of it all...
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Post by evilart on Sept 21, 2008 9:18:49 GMT -5
Again, so what, who cares!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 21, 2008 15:41:48 GMT -5
Don't forget "We all sin every day" and "We are all sinners" and "We aren't suppose to judge."
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Post by prespilot68 on Sept 21, 2008 22:04:15 GMT -5
Jesse - your so right. The other night a local "Christian Radio" station (WAY-FM) whereby the DJ told his listeners "Who are we to judge Ray Boltz?", he then proceeded to say that "We are all sinners and therefore who are we to judge", he then told his audience that he sins in word thought and deed daily. The sad fact is he was saying this as if he was wearing it like a badge of honor! This is why sin is running rampant in our churches is because men are no longer ashamed of sin, they wear it like a badge of honor.
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Post by mahatma on Sept 24, 2008 13:38:08 GMT -5
*sigh*
1) I heard several of you guys promise in the past you were going to use biblical words and not retreat into terminology like "homo." I'm disappointed to see that you are falling back into an unnecessarily nasty vocabulary.
2) The Human Genome Project existed in order to sequence the human genome, not to label all the particular genes. They weren't -looking- for a gene that caused homosexuality any more than they were looking for a gene that makes kids like to eat brussel sprouts. The article you linked didn't really talk about any evidence for a lack of a gene, it just pointed to the fact that people who weren't looking for it didn't find it and then pulled really hard on their shoelaces to lift themselves into the air.
3) It's no more ridiculous to say that a newborn baby is homosexual than to say that one is heterosexual.
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Post by debonnaire on Sept 24, 2008 14:30:22 GMT -5
3/ Of course it is.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. [Psalm 139]
God does not make humans homosexuals , not even create them this way in the womb. but people choose their own way.
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Post by mahatma on Sept 24, 2008 14:56:02 GMT -5
Your quote seems to suggest more that homosexuality could be genetic than the reverse. Verse 15 suggests that God knows everything that a person is before he is born, and verse 16 suggests that God ordained a person's sexuality from before birth...that a person is purposely made to be who he is, and the path of his life ordained, before he is even born. I know there are some apologetics that attempt to argue the existence of free will alongside predestination, but Psalm 139 seems to be purely discussing predestination, without any mention of free will. Why did you choose this particular passage as an attempt to illustrate homosexuality as a choice?
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Post by debonnaire on Sept 25, 2008 0:19:18 GMT -5
Only people who want to excuse homosexuality , or who think homosexuality is natural and not a sin , can think this quote would suggest that homosexuality is from predestination. This quote only says that God is the Creator of all humans since the womb and is omniscient and has foreknowledge. God has not predestined/appointed people to be sinners. As it is written in Genesis God created man and woman (and they shall be one flesh) in the image of God. God is not the creator of confusion. God does not create homosexuality tendancies or any other tendancy in your mother's womb. The fact is amply proven by homosexuals choice of sexuality, that they were Not homosexuals since the origin of their life, but switched to that by temptations, or by their own lust, either at the age of 15 or at the age of 45 , or whatever the age they choose to switch to that.
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Post by evilart on Sept 25, 2008 10:14:36 GMT -5
Did anyone ever brong up the question as to wherher in spite of what Christians like to think, jesus might have been gay or as some of you street ranters so endearingly put it, a homo?He was always hanging aorund in the men of men and seemed to have no interest in marriage unless you believe the Da Vinci Code. The actions of jesus seem pretty suspect to me.
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Post by mahatma on Sept 25, 2008 15:57:49 GMT -5
Debonnaire, It may be that there are other quotes from the Bible which back up what you are saying, but the fact remains that the Psalm you quoted doesn't say any such thing. "All the days ordained me were written in your book," seems pretty clearly to be discussing predestination, and it doesn't make any mention, whatsoever, of homosexuality as a choice. If God doesn't create any tendency in your mother's womb, then how can you say that a person is heterosexual at birth?
When you say that the "fact is amply proven" I don't see any evidence that A) there is a fact or B) that anything is proven. I am heterosexual, but I didn't have sex till I was 16. Does that mean that before I was 16 I wasn't heterosexual? I remember being romantically interested in girls, and not in boys, pretty much my whole life. By the same token, why would it make any sense that a homosexual only becomes so the first time he has sex with another man?
I don't mean to offend you with my interpretation of the two verses from Psalms you posted, but as a neutral reader I really cannot see -any- content in them which paints homosexuality as a choice, and the rest of what you have said seems to be pure opinion with no backing facts.
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Post by debonnaire on Sept 25, 2008 23:29:41 GMT -5
Never mind, forget about it then. Maybe the verse chosen was not appropriate As a man born of God , i can see the purity of God in creation , All what God creates is good. Saying that God creates homoxesuals when homosexuality is condemned in the Bible , that would make no sense and of course would be an insult to God, right ?
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Post by evilart on Oct 4, 2008 14:10:33 GMT -5
Who cares
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 11, 2008 17:58:37 GMT -5
Pretty much yeah. What do you want to do burn him at the stake for it?
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Post by Miles Lewis on Oct 12, 2008 21:20:14 GMT -5
3/ Of course it is. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. [Psalm 139] God does not make humans homosexuals , not even create them this way in the womb. but people choose their own way. It is my understanding that DAYS in that verse should be translated as MEMBERS as in limbs.
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Post by joemccowan on Oct 13, 2008 7:01:02 GMT -5
3/ Of course it is. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. [Psalm 139] God does not make humans homosexuals , not even create them this way in the womb. but people choose their own way. It is my understanding that DAYS in that verse should be translated as MEMBERS as in limbs. Your right Miles, it is talking about the formation of the human body in the womb, not exhaustive foreknowledge/exhaustive determination.
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 13, 2008 10:34:28 GMT -5
I love it how hardcore christians who don't study science or even take the word of professional scientist like to think that homosexuality is a choice for everyone. I've said it once but I will say it again...........you guys need to stop hiding behind a misinterpreted book and use your own mind.
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Post by kureji on Oct 13, 2008 11:55:22 GMT -5
I'm not a christian and personally I'm more inclined to think that it's a choice or at the very least a psychological quirk. Now unlike the Christians, I don't think it's a bad thing. I look at it the same way as any other fetish, I don't judge those people who get turned on by feet either.
Anyway, about people saying I was born that way. I just have a hard time buying that. Maybe you're a boy who admired other boys and then that eventually developed into sexual feelings for other boys, but I don't think you're born gay. I believe through certain situations, you can become gay. When people say I was born this way, I always just think they're looking for an easy excuse so it's no longer their fault.
Now I'm not completely saying it's impossible for being born gay, I just don't really buy it yet, and as such I lean more towards it being a choice.
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 13, 2008 12:58:05 GMT -5
It is my understanding that DAYS in that verse should be translated as MEMBERS as in limbs. Your right Miles, it is talking about the formation of the human body in the womb, not exhaustive foreknowledge/exhaustive determination. Really ? What about Paul who was set apart from his mother’s womb ? [Gal 1:15] Even the KJV says that. Anyway, whatever God knows beforehand whatever it is -how you are made or how much years He has planned for you- , I don’t know what it changes about the foreknowledge of God and what He has prepared beforehand. Is someone able to put his hands on a Christian and kill Him, before his time has come ?
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Post by kureji on Oct 13, 2008 13:16:33 GMT -5
Destiny vs Free will is a silly argument.
If destiny is real, then free will is an illusion but we'd still never know the difference, the only thing that would possibly change is that there would definitely be no way to time travel and change the events of time.
Now thats a topic we should talk about, time travel. You know, with paradoxes and such? What would happen if you tried to kill your grandfather before he had your father. My thought is that you could never succeed in killing him, you'd always fail if you tried. Also I think if anyone ever went back in time, even if you didn't know you went back in time, you had already effected the time line and any time you tried to intercept yourself or anything like that, something would get in the way, unless of course you remembered seeing someone who looked like yourself.
Time travel is cool.
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Post by debonnaire on Oct 13, 2008 13:31:00 GMT -5
i agree that the debate predestination versus free-will is a bit silly, and is a lost of time. And there is too many of it on this forum already. In fact it is quite simple for me, both of them exist, i don't try to reconcile friends as Spurgeon would say. oh yes time travel would be cool, but we can only dream of it ;D
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 13, 2008 14:41:02 GMT -5
I'm not a christian and personally I'm more inclined to think that it's a choice or at the very least a psychological quirk. Now unlike the Christians, I don't think it's a bad thing. I look at it the same way as any other fetish, I don't judge those people who get turned on by feet either. Anyway, about people saying I was born that way. I just have a hard time buying that. Maybe you're a boy who admired other boys and then that eventually developed into sexual feelings for other boys, but I don't think you're born gay. I believe through certain situations, you can become gay. When people say I was born this way, I always just think they're looking for an easy excuse so it's no longer their fault. Now I'm not completely saying it's impossible for being born gay, I just don't really buy it yet, and as such I lean more towards it being a choice. I use to think exactly that too so I completely understand where you are coming from. I think for most people you are correct, they are the ones who decide whether they want to be gay or not. But there are genetic reasons for why people have fetish for certain things too. No matter what anyone tells you we all are attractive to something sexually. Hermaphadites are a great example for why I think some people don't have much of a choice in what sex they are attracted to. Take this example so you can see where I'm coming from. I use to think alchoholism was not an actual disease and that it is up to the person. I don't think that anymore. I think we are addicted to certain things more than others based on our own personal biological bodies that cause us to do things a certain way. My dad for example has two older brothers. Both of them are alcoholics. My dad isn't. The thing is though my dad was drinking at a younger age than either of his older brothers because he would hang out with them and drink. That means he has had more exposure to it than either of them. It makes no sense to say they chose to be alcoholics because they were brought up in the same family with my dad. My dad never became an alcoholic. Is that because he chose not to. No. He just wasn't as biologically addicted to it as his brothers were. Hopefully you guys can understand that and see where I'm coming form.
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Post by kureji on Oct 13, 2008 17:09:47 GMT -5
Genetically having less self control? ...right. Just like some people are fat because genetics cause them to eat at McDonalds too much.
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Post by davidvalley on Oct 13, 2008 18:32:49 GMT -5
Genetically having less self control? ...right. Just like some people are fat because genetics cause them to eat at McDonalds too much. No not genetically. Biologically. All of our bodies work differently to a certain degree. That is why some people are more biologically prey to diseases. We all have different metabolism and immune systems. Addiction is a neurological thing and as you might know we do not all have the same IQ and we all most certainly think differently. There is no one person who thinks exactly the same as someone else. Knowing this it is very easy to see why some people are addicted to some things while other people aren't. I'm not saying that experience in life and personal choice don't have anything to do with it but it certainly does play a factor. I'm not saying it is fact I'm just saying that it is very possible that homosexuality may not always be a choice. In most cases such as Hermaphroditus it has pretty much been proven why some people are addicted to the same sex.
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