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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 11:39:40 GMT -5
Oh so sinners who believe the Bible is the Word of God also have the witness of the Spirit. You must be a Calvinist.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 11:44:22 GMT -5
I haven't “explained away” the fact that the Bible speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe it's a grave mistake to interpret the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit possession and inspiration. How do you interpret the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Okay. I see no argument here. We're saying the same thing. The only difference is you believe that point has already come. I believe there is still faith, hope, and love in this world; therefore, gifts from God still exist. “When that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” 1 Corinthians 13:10The miraculous gifts were in part. That is, they were all parts working together to reveal the whole, and perfect, revelation of God. I read it differently. If you attempt to prophesy, speak in tongues, etc without love, it is only in part and Paul likens it to a child's understanding or looking through dark glass. Without love, we cannot use God's gifts properly because we are not complete and do not have the necessary understanding. If Paul wanted to point out these gifts from God will stop, why didn't he do it in 1 Corinthians 12? That seems like the perfect time to bring up something like that, yet he didn't. He went on to talk about those gifts and the necessity of love being a part of them. In my last post I explained that a time will come when Prophesy, tongues, and knowledge will cease but faith hope and love will remain. This must be before the coming of the Lord because at his coming faith and hope will cease yet love will remain. You asked "Why didn't Paul point out in 1 Corinthians 12 that miraculous gifts would cease." Because he immediately followed chapter 12 with chapter 13.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 31, 2009 12:33:00 GMT -5
Jonathan, I encourage you to meditate and pray about what you've said here: "Jesus' compassion has not ceased but Jesus is no longer present on this earth..." I think you know as well as I that Jesus does not have to be physically present to heal someone. Remember what the centurian said to Jesus? "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed." (Mt 8:8) When Jesus was here in the flesh he sometimes healed just because he is compassionate. Those who teach that the miraculous has ceased miss this point. Why? Because it doesn't fit in with their view of the purpose of miracles. See, you've been convinced that the purpose for miracles was connected to the temporary dispensation when the Church was being established and the Scriptures were being completed. I ask you to prayerfully read this text in the presence of God. Not reading it to find a rebuttal but reading it to see what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you through it : "Soon afterward he went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him. As he drew near to the gate of the town, behold, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow, and a considerable crowd from the town was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her and said to her, 'Do not weep.' Then he came up and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise.' And the dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother. Fear seized them all, and they glorified God, saying, 'A great prophet has arisen among us!' and 'God has visited his people!' And this report about him spread through the whole of Judea and all the surrounding country." (Lk 7:11-17) Jesus heals because he has compassion and pity on the suffering. That is not tied to an artificial dispensation in the 1st century.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2009 16:49:38 GMT -5
Yes when there is a new Heaven and a New Earth, we won't need healings and miricles anymore because sin will be done away with. When we live in a perfect world, nobody will be sick and so consequently nobody will need healing!
But until that which is perfect comes, we still live in a fallen world and need God's healing, etc.
Right now the world has the Bible but the world still needs healing. The idea that healing is no longer necessary since we have the Bible doesn't make sense. We don't need healing to believe, but we need healing to be healed.
That's right. Jesus once healed a person and then told them NOT to tell anybody. That is because Jesus didn't heal people just to give credability to himself, or so that others would believe, but Jesus healed people to heal people! He really simply cared about them.
Besides, miricles were not the answer. The Israelites saw many miricles and still disobeyed God. Judas saw Jesus walk on water and he still betrayed him!
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 17:50:33 GMT -5
Yes when there is a new Heaven and a New Earth, we won't need healings and miricles anymore because sin will be done away with. When we live in a perfect world, nobody will be sick and so consequently nobody will need healing! But until that which is perfect comes, we still live in a fallen world and need God's healing, etc. "That which is perfect" cannot refer to the new heavens and new earth because when the miraculous gifts cease, faith and hope will remain. The passage clearly tells us that there will be a point when miraculous gifts cease. Faith, hope, and love will continue and then when Jesus returns Love will remain forever. Right now the world has the Bible but the world still needs healing. The idea that healing is no longer necessary since we have the Bible doesn't make sense. We don't need healing to believe, but we need healing to be healed. We shouldn't make physical applications to spiritual healing. Jesus continually rebuked the pharisees for this. That's right. Jesus once healed a person and then told them NOT to tell anybody. That is because Jesus didn't heal people just to give credability to himself, or so that others would believe, but Jesus healed people to heal people! He really simply cared about them. Besides, miricles were not the answer. The Israelites saw many miricles and still disobeyed God. Judas saw Jesus walk on water and he still betrayed him! To say that Jesus healed people simply and only because he wanted them to be physically healthy is ridiculous. If this were so, then every Christian would be physically perfect unless you believe that God want's some people to be blind and mentally handicapped. Jesus performed miracles so that they and we may believe that he is the son of God and that through believing we may have eternal life. In doing so, Jesus definitely had compassion on men. Sadly you've just completely denied this purpose which can be attested through the scriptures. Matthew 9:6 Mark 2:10, 16:17-20; Luke 5:24; John 2:18,19 10:25,38 14:31; Acts 2:22; Hebrews 2:3,4There's no longer any need for God to perform miraculous signs because the preaching of the gospel is God's power unto salvation. Jesse would have me to look at every crippled child and believe that God does not wish for them to prosper in health making God a respecter of persons.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 31, 2009 18:45:50 GMT -5
How must I be a Calvinist?
Calvinists are cessationalists like yourself. They believe God has no power to heal the sick today. Like yourself.
I believe John 14:12 is for today. I believe Mark 16:15-20 is for today. All of it. Not just the preaching. You believe that is not for today.
How does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit?
You said this is according to 1 John 5:6. By the Word of God.
Plenty of sinners believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God.
Plenty of sinners believe Jesus rose from the dead.
Plenty of sinners believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Plenty of sinners believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
Is that the witness of the Spirit?
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 31, 2009 18:48:36 GMT -5
By the way Paul did not stop at Chapter 13.
To follow your above reasoning he goes on to Chapter 14 telling us to desire spiritual gifts in addition to following after charity.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 18:53:23 GMT -5
By the way Paul did not stop at Chapter 13. To follow your above reasoning he goes on to Chapter 14 telling us to desire spiritual gifts in addition to following after charity. Chapter 14 doesn't refute chapter 13.
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 31, 2009 18:57:46 GMT -5
I agree.
You are the one who is saying Chapter 13 refutes Chapter 12. I am not saying that.
What are you a Muslim or something? You believe the later Chapters cancel out the earlier ones?
Be consistent with your own reasoning then. Since Paul follows 12 with 13 remember he also follows 13 with 14.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 19:01:00 GMT -5
I agree. You are the one who is saying Chapter 13 refutes Chapter 12. I am not saying that. What are you a Muslim or something? You believe the later Chapters cancel out the earlier ones? Be consistent with your own reasoning then. Since Paul follows 12 with 13 remember he also follows 13 with 14. You've falsely accused me of saying that Chapter 13 refutes chapter 12. And you claim to be full of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Dec 31, 2009 19:02:14 GMT -5
How must I be a Calvinist? Calvinists are cessationalists like yourself. They believe God has no power to heal the sick today. Like yourself. I believe John 14:12 is for today. I believe Mark 16:15-20 is for today. All of it. Not just the preaching. You believe that is not for today. How does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit? You said this is according to 1 John 5:6. By the Word of God. Plenty of sinners believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Plenty of sinners believe Jesus rose from the dead. Plenty of sinners believe Jesus is the Son of God. Plenty of sinners believe Jesus was born of a virgin. Is that the witness of the Spirit? I'm looking forward to seeing you perform miracles on your videos and proving me wrong.
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Post by Steve Noel on Dec 31, 2009 21:46:05 GMT -5
Jonathan, You are taking a partial truth: Jesus performed miracles so that people would believe in Him and be saved; and are trying to make it into the only and entire purpose for miracles. I've already given you 2 texts (Mt 14:14 & Lk 7:11-17) where the Scripture clearly says that the purpose behind the miracle was Jesus' compassion. In case you think these are isolated and rare incidents here's some more: "And a leper came to him, imploring him, and kneeling said to him, 'If you will, you can make me clean.' Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, 'I will; be clean.' And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean." (Mk 1:40-42)
"They said to him, 'Lord, let our eyes be opened.' And Jesus in pity touched their eyes, and immediately they recovered their sight and followed him." (Mt 20:33-34)
"Then Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 'I have compassion on the crowd because they have been with me now three days and have nothing to eat. And I am unwilling to send them away hungry, lest they faint on the way.' And the disciples said to him, 'Where are we to get enough bread in such a desolate place to feed so great a crowd?' And Jesus said to them, 'How many loaves do you have?' They said, 'Seven, and a few small fish.' And directing the crowd to sit down on the ground, he took the seven loaves and the fish, and having given thanks he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up seven baskets full of the broken pieces left over. Those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children." (Mt 15:32-38) Others could easily be added to this list including numerous instances where Jesus healed just because he's merciful. I pray that God would help you see beyond what you've been told about this issue Jonathan. Scripture does not support your claims. To argue that God has withdrawn his healing ministry today is to argue that God has withdrawn his mercy and compassion today. As an aside, if you were to really study out the Hebrew and Greek words behind "salvation" I think you would be in for a wake up. The Bible does not support this Western way of thinking that divides up the person into physical and non-physical. Salvation is for the whole person not just for their "soul". I challenge you to do the research. Here's an audio that I hope you'll take the time to listen to. It's from Dr. Michael L. Brown and is called Why Healing is for Today. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page and you can listen online or download. www.askdrbrown.org/resources/free-resources/spiritual-growth-resources
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Post by messengermicah on Dec 31, 2009 22:56:26 GMT -5
So in other words Jonathan you have no idea how to answer my question without refuting your own theology.
As I said you are dishonest and have committed yourself to a belief system.
Furthermore of ALL the videos of me preaching none of them has been posted by me.
Most are posted by students who hate me.
Most of what I preach is not even posted.
In other words I am not presented at all in a positive light.
Yes I have seen people healed although usually this has been in a much more prayerful atmosphere than a college campus with homosexuals kissing, God's name being blasphemed, cigarettes being blown in my face, women exposing themselves, sinners contradicting and blaspheming, etc.
Even Jesus could do no mighty miracles in certain situations (Mark 6:5) because of the unbelief. Most of the time preaching on college campuses the atmosphere is hardly conducive to faith.
They had no faith as they did not believe Jesus was from God. Most of the time the students are looking for any little reason to discredit me to prove to themselves I am not from God so they do not have to listen to the truth of what I am preaching.
Most of the time if I were to pray for a sick person most of the crowd would actually be looking forward to the person remaining sick.
Hardly an atmosphere of faith. If it limited Jesus it certainly would limit me also. This should not become an excuse though and it is not.
Many times in the open air God has supernaturally shown me things about individuals or groups I am preaching to (Word of knowledge or word of wisdom). This is sometimes why people become so convicted and so angry.
However I fully expect to see healings and miracles on college campuses in a much greater measure in the days ahead. In the past I have not prayed much for it or expected it because I have focused on preaching repentance, the truth, bringing conviction on sinners and refuting their excuses.
However, we are talking here about what the Bible teaches.
If the Bible tells us to live free from sin and people do not believe it, reach out in faith to God for it, and obtain salvation by faith through grace does that mean it is not for us?
Same thing with the supernatural power of God in demonstration.
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