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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 13:42:13 GMT -5
Christ is the perfecter of our faith not us!! People need to get over themselves and bow at the feet of God and say thank YOU for saving me versus thank me for choosing you God, because I made the right choice!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 18, 2006 13:51:16 GMT -5
Do you think that everyone who does not believe in unconditional election is prideful?
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 13:58:26 GMT -5
Do you think that everyone who does not believe in unconditional election is prideful? Hmmm did I call anyone prideful? NOPE! maybe some are convicted by the statement, I don't know but I do pray that folks would get over themselves and goive GOD ALL THE GLORY HE deserves in our conversions.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 14:01:41 GMT -5
If you would like for me to continue, please tone down your shape words..I don't attempt to drive several nails in at once, as some preachers do. My study of scripture, is verse by verse, context by context. I don't claim to hold to anyone's doctrine, rather it be Calvin, or Arminian, if anything.. I hold to Christ, so with that( call me Christocentric). First off I'am well prepared to know that everyone must be (Born-Again), to enter the Kingdom of God, and there is a good reason for it...i ask you a question about Nicodemus, and you accused me. Do look at the words of Jesus, himself said Repent first... Repentance is apart of the gracious gift from God. So why would Jesus say Repent, and then look at a person and say well you maybe, not you, i pick you to be Born-Again.. There is another motive that this Grace, becomes another motivator, placing a person in tension between his old ways and God's Way. and i can give you Biblical examples of those who Repented first , check out Acts 16:25-34, what is your story on this?
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 14:04:38 GMT -5
Christ is the perfecter of our faith not us!! People need to get over themselves and bow at the feet of God and say thank YOU for saving me versus thank me for choosing you God, because I made the right choice! So he is also your finisher also of your Faith, right? Did i miss something?
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 14:18:16 GMT -5
See you miss the point, just as we preach, we preach to all and tell all to repent, do all repent..nope. Look at Acts 17:30-31, do all repent nope. So Jesus said repent so he must mean that you have to repent first then be born again...he did not tell Nicodemus to repent first did he? So some must repent first while others must be born again. Back to Jesus now, so he told all to repent in Mark 1:15, did everyone no, did he say that this must come first..no, so on the other hand he didn't say you have to be born again first, but..there's always one of those.. the scripture points to mans depravity and that in and of our own selves we would choose (yes we are capable of choice) self over God (John 3:19, men loved darkness rather then light) so we must be born again not of flesh (as a note the act of repentance by it's self would be something we do in the flesh and therefore constitute being born of flesh because we would have to choose to be born again).. see the whole of scripture points back to Christ, God and the Holy Spirit working within our lives to enable us (once again not of the flesh but by the Spirit) to make the choice that is God focused (because we have sinned against God 2 Cor 7:10) not because we are scared of hell, which is a valid fear but not the motivator for repentance. Clearly scripture speaks to this And yes I will tone down the shape of my words
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 14:19:57 GMT -5
Christ is the perfecter of our faith not us!! People need to get over themselves and bow at the feet of God and say thank YOU for saving me versus thank me for choosing you God, because I made the right choice! So he is also your finisher also of your Faith, right? Did i miss something? Oh sorry, so what does perfect mean as in perfecter of faith, perfect would be complete, whole nonething else needed to add to it seince it is perfect. Please study the scriptures, you state that you study in context but as of yet I have not seen that, I have seen a picking of the scripture to meet the needs of what you want it to mean at the expense of the whole of scripture.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 18, 2006 14:26:14 GMT -5
Sir ( or Ma'am), I asked you a question. I was not being sarcastic or accusing you of anything. You are assuming that if a person believes in free will they do not give all the glory to God. If anyone is convicted by that statement you made, I would hope they would share and encourage you. I don't know of anyone off hand that believes that a man can choose to serve Christ that thinks they have saved themselves.
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 18, 2006 14:31:02 GMT -5
Jeff, Here's an article from this "Great Arminian Website" by J. Arminius on Romans 9. wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/arminius/ze.htmI have not read it yet, but I intend to. It is quite lengthy so I understand if you (or I) don't read it all. Since this is considered a strong Calvinist passage I'll see if I can post an Arminian view of Romans 9 in the Theological Discussion section of the MB in the near future. Steve
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 14:32:04 GMT -5
So he is also your finisher also of your Faith, right? Did i miss something? Oh sorry, so what does perfect mean as in perfecter of faith, perfect would be complete, whole nonething else needed to add to it seince it is perfect. {{{{{{{Please study the scriptures, you state that you study in context but as of yet I have not seen that, I have seen a picking of the scripture to meet the needs of what you want it to mean at the expense of the whole of scripture.}}}}}}}} You did it again, the tongue boasted again.. James 3:5-6, you are defending yourself, not Holy Scripture.. Did you read Acts 16:25-34? I can't have a dialog with such rabbit trail that leads under the bush, of how you were taught, i want to know what you know about Holy Scripture. If i am to study with you, there must be a beginning, not all this confusion, and talking Holy Scripture and throwing it around as nothing , i will not partake in such. I Honor and Repect God the Author of these Holy Scriptures to do such..
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 14:46:40 GMT -5
The point being believe (in Acts you mentioned) and you must be saved, you can't believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit rebirths (born again) you, how can you believe in something you don't understand (1 Cor 2:14 & 1 Cor 1:18) or is foolishness?
These are not rabbit trails, these are scripture's I speak to, of which when I post them you are now saying they are rabbit trails, you have to get to the root of it all before you can understand any of it and that is mans depravity, that there is nothing Good in us (Romans 3:10-12, Isaiah 64, etc. etc.
See when you take the WHOLE of scripture it shows we are good for nothing and only by the Holy Spirit working in us can we EVER do anything that would incline us towards God.
And by the way I boast not in myself but if you read my posts I boast in Christ and HIS work in me not my work that I did because I would have not chose Christ if it were not for being born of the Spirit and not of the flesh (which is decisional regeneration you speak of)
Sorry if my pointing out of scripture annoys you and makes you mad, but I cannot but cry out to what the scriptures say. I am praying for you.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 14:48:49 GMT -5
Jeff, Here's an article from this "Great Arminian Website" by J. Arminius on Romans 9. wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/arminius/ze.htmI have not read it yet, but I intend to. It is quite lengthy so I understand if you (or I) don't read it all. Since this is considered a strong Calvinist passage I'll see if I can post an Arminian view of Romans 9 in the Theological Discussion section of the MB in the near future. Steve Thanks Steve, I copied it and put it in a word doc, with narrow margins it's 25 pages
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 18, 2006 14:55:37 GMT -5
So do you believe that you have a choice after you are born again?
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 15:05:30 GMT -5
So do you believe that you have a choice after you are born again? Yes I do believe that, please read what a Calvinist stand for, no Calvinist states that we have no free will (maybe Hyper calvinsit which is unbiblical). This statement will summarize what free will is to a Calvinist When a person makes the bold claim that human beings have a 'free will' then you may want to ask them to define terms by asking,"Free from what?" "Free from sin?", "Free from God's decree?" No, neither. So what do people actually mean when they claim man has a free will? I think many persons mean to say that man is free from external coercion. In this we all can agree, but just because someone is free from coercion does not mean his will is free. There are other ways in which man's will is not free. If the natural man make choices BY NECESSITY then he also lacks a kind of freedom. We might want to consider whether the Bible uses the expression 'freedom' to describe any fallen man. And the answer is no, not UNTIL Christ sets us free (Rom 6). Jesus says that prior to grace, persons are 'slaves to sin'. And, last time I looked, a slave is not free. If man is in bondage to a corruption of nature, as the Scripture attests, then he is not, in any sense, free as the Bible defines it. That is, until the grace of God in Christ sets him free. It would be correct to say man HAS A WILL and that his choices are VOLUNTARY (not coerced) but this does not make the choices free. Fallen man chooses sin of NECESSITY due to a corruption of nature, and this is just as much a form of bondage of the will from which we need to be set free by Christ, and a more properly biblical way of expression. Just because we make these choices, of necessity, does not alleviate our responsibility. If we borrow $5 million and squander it in a week of wild living in Las Vegas [like our condition of debt after the fall], our inability to repay the debt does not alleviate us of any responsibility to do so (see Rom 3:20). So I contend that whenever speaking about the concept of "free will," because of the confusion surrounding it, we should only define freedom as the Bible does: that man's will is not free, but rather is in bondage to sin. Clearly the Bible affirms that apart from a supernatural and merciful work of the Holy Spirit to change our naturally hostile disposition to God, no person would ever receive Christ (John 6:65 And he said, " This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." ). And Just as water does not rise above its source, so unspiritual men do not think or act spiritually (1 Cor 2:14). - J.W.H for further reading please look here, I think most Arminians don't understand what a Calvinist believes when it comes to free will www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 15:18:47 GMT -5
You are limiting the work of the Holy Spirit in your posts, it is by Grace that we are saved through Faith...This post of total depravity, blows me away, because the Word of God, The Way, the Truth, the Life is found in Christ, and him alone...Even the person who is without Christ is respondsible for their sin, for God give every human a measure of light and grace to seek God and escape the slavery of sin through Faith, without this Saving Faith in Christ Jesus, we would all be goners..John 1:9, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 2:1-16
And no i am not mad, matter fact i know that in an unregenerated person's spiritual condition, people cannot understand or accept the truth apart from the GRACE of God., they are blinded by their own pride, thus a slave to sin, and satan. And repentance is of Gospel orgin ,the gracious gift in orgin and a of God, because it is not legal, it didn't come from Moses, but Jesus himself..Mat 4:17 "repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, with grief and a hatred of sin, turns from it unto God, with a full purpose and of endeaver after a new obedience.." What happens next, my friend? Do you think all the blessing of Salvation are bestowed at once? Isn't a saving faith followed by repentance, a repentance is of turning from sin to God, but there is no turning to God but through Christ, and there is no coming to Christ but by Faith. What if we are only half -saved, meaning it isn't complete, as these ones are asleep in the Lord, and will be completed when he returns. Because truly the ones that are saved are in asleep in Christ, to be a completed salvation in his second return, with this thought, no one would or can boast about anything or think ...Their prays each night, would be Father God, show me if there is anything that offends you, try my heart, and ask in the Precious name of Jesus, working out their own Salvation with fear and trembling.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 15:33:43 GMT -5
And many of you follow John Hendryx teachings, but he isn't Jesus.. and like Jesus who does hold our life in his hand, you people have build an altar to this man alot, along with others in the same boat,which is Idolatry...
2 Corin 13:5 Examine yourselves, please
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 15:35:02 GMT -5
NO SIR YOU ARE DEAD WRONG I PUT THE WHOLE EMPHASIS ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, YOU LIE ABOUT WHAT I STATE! MY POSTS HAVE BEEN ABOUT HOW IT IS THE WHOLE WORK OF THE HOKY SPIRIT AND H9IS WORKING IN US TO COME TO FAITH AND REPENTANCE...YOU SIR SAY THAT IT IS YOUR CHOICE AND THERFORE DETRACT FROM THE WORK OF THE SPIRIT!!!!
No one is saying a lost person is not responsible for their sin, please read a few of the articles there to understand the doctrine of grace. So if you understand about an unregenrate man then why is this so hard for you to accept that he must be REGENERATED (born again) if he is a unregenerate?
You miss the point, I think we both agree on "For by grace you have been saved through faith"
Point we disaree on how thi sfaith comes about, you beleive it is a descion you make (desicional regeneration) I beleive that it is fully the work of the Holy Spirit in us by being born again...not of flesh but of spirit then faith and repentance follow.
I never heard of half saved, is their such a thing in the arminian camp?
regeneration, conversion (faith & repentance)
Ordo Salutis (The Order of Salvation) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never seperate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.
Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 15:43:23 GMT -5
And many of you follow John Hendryx teachings, but he isn't Jesus.. and like Jesus who does hold our life in his hand, you people have build an altar to this man a lot, along with others in the same boat,which is Idolatry... 2 Corin 13:5 Examine yourselves, please Dude that is a tired old argument, you and many others in your camp will quote Finney, Wesley, old church fathers etc. etc. but when you can't refute what another believer in Christ (Hendryx) says you fall back on I am a follower of Christ not man. Ok so throw away ANY commentaries you have any concordance (written by man you know) and any other books. this is a fools argument you present. I dare you to study the patristic writings (oh Patristic = early church fathers) and what they contended for, we can learn a lot form those that have gone before us. I will use my tired old example from the bible, it say's in Ecclesiastes that there is nothing new under the sun...there was a heresy in the early years 300 or 400 known as Arian heresy...it is now resurfaced as JW's, we can learn a lot form others and the past. I know many on this board that quote others would I call them a follower of the person they quote yes...ah but would I say they follow that person over Christ...never. I believe my Arminian brothers are just that brothers in Christ I believe the are erred in doctrine but none the less brothers in Christ. Now if they subscribe to a Pelagianism theory then I would not count them as brothers
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 18, 2006 15:43:40 GMT -5
Wideglide, You said, "While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ." Although some contemporary Arminians don't hold to a strong belief in Total Depravity this cannot be said for Arminius himself or those today who call themselves Reformed Arminians. Nor can it be said of Wesley or the early Methodists. You say that, "Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power". This is not true at all. That is Semi-Pelagian Catholic doctrine. You seem to be not understanding the Arminian doctrine of Previenent Grace. If you do understand it, then you are purposefully misrepresenting Arminian theology to make it look heretical. I hope it's the former and not the latter. Steve
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 15:55:16 GMT -5
NO SIR YOU ARE DEAD WRONG I PUT THE WHOLE EMPHASIS ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, YOU LIE ABOUT WHAT I STATE! MY POSTS HAVE BEEN ABOUT HOW IT IS THE WHOLE WORK OF THE HOKY SPIRIT AND H9IS WORKING IN US TO COME TO FAITH AND REPENTANCE...YOU SIR SAY THAT IT IS YOUR CHOICE AND THERFORE DETRACT FROM THE WORK OF THE SPIRIT!!!! No one is saying a lost person is not responsible for their sin, please read a few of the articles there to understand the doctrine of grace. So if you understand about an unregenrate man then why is this so hard for you to accept that he must be REGENERATED (born again) if he is a unregenerate? You miss the point, I think we both agree on "For by grace you have been saved through faith" Point we disaree on how thi sfaith comes about, you beleive it is a descion you make (desicional regeneration) I beleive that it is fully the work of the Holy Spirit in us by being born again...not of flesh but of spirit then faith and repentance follow. I never heard of half saved, is their such a thing in the arminian camp? regeneration, conversion (faith & repentance) Ordo Salutis (The Order of Salvation) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never seperate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian. Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history: In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification. Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole. Thanks for screaming at me, i will remember to turn my bell-tone down next time, so that my ears don't pop..I am not in neither of those camps that you have mentioned..You know the latin part up at the top, makes me think of the Catholic Church.. 'What is here , is the importants of Christ-Like Doctrine", by scripture, the essentials to Christian faith. a.The Deity of Christ b.Salvation by Grace c.The Resurrection of Christ d.The Gospel
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 16:05:10 GMT -5
And many of you follow John Hendryx teachings, but he isn't Jesus.. and like Jesus who does hold our life in his hand, you people have build an altar to this man a lot, along with others in the same boat,which is Idolatry... 2 Corin 13:5 Examine yourselves, please Dude that is a tired old argument, you and many others in your camp will quote Finney, Wesley, old church fathers etc. etc. but when you can't refute what another believer in Christ (Hendryx) says you fall back on I am a follower of Christ not man. Ok so throw away ANY commentaries you have any concordance (written by man you know) and any other books. this is a fools argument you present. I dare you to study the patristic writings (oh Patristic = early church fathers) and what they contended for, we can learn a lot form those that have gone before us. I will use my tired old example from the bible, it say's in Ecclesiastes that there is nothing new under the sun...there was a heresy in the early years 300 or 400 known as Arian heresy...it is now resurfaced as JW's, we can learn a lot form others and the past. I know many on this board that quote others would I call them a follower of the person they quote yes...ah but would I say they follow that person over Christ...never. I believe my Arminian brothers are just that brothers in Christ I believe the are erred in doctrine but none the less brothers in Christ. Now if they subscribe to a Pelagianism theory then I would not count them as brothers Reflutes John.. www.john15.net/arm/synergism.phpDo you really know what Arian heresy is? It denys the Diety of Christ..think about it..
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 16:08:00 GMT -5
Do you really know what Arian heresy is? It denys the Diety of Christ..think about it..
yes just as the JW's do,
you don;t read everything do you, I used the arian exmaple to show why we must know history
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 16:17:36 GMT -5
I look to the History of the Jewish Nation, as God's Church to be Fashioned in His Wisdom.. Heb 8:1-5... The Apostolic age of the Church, and not depart from Divine revelation, or to mofity God's heavenly pattern, by putting into practice and culturally and organizationally, according to human, earthly ideas, that bring Christ down to man level, and deny His deity altogether.. Look around my friend, and you will see proliferation of man-made ideas in the church today.. God's timeless pattern standard is the same today as back then..
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 16:22:38 GMT -5
Wideglide, You said, "While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ." Although some contemporary Arminians don't hold to a strong belief in Total Depravity this cannot be said for Arminius himself or those today who call themselves Reformed Arminians. Nor can it be said of Wesley or the early Methodists. You say that, "Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power". This is not true at all. That is Semi-Pelagian Catholic doctrine. You seem to be not understanding the Arminian doctrine of Previenent Grace. Steve, not misunderstanding at all, the Arminan beleives it his his choice to choose Christ (resistable grace) But I think I know where you are coming from (I was not speaking to that issue, just to the issue of who causes regeneration and that born again comes first), I am making the point that it is the complete working of the spirit that cause one to be born again, not a prevenient grace. Prevenient grace is an Arminian doctrine which explains how a person comes to faith in Christ. In short, prevenient grace, which is given to all men at some point in their life, brings us out of our condition of total depravity and puts us in a neutral position of free will wherein the natural man can either accept or reject Christ. The above statment falls in line with what a historical arminian would believe and that it is resistable, the reformed view is not of that and therefore would not support the beleif of prevenient grace. It still places man in control and God seconday. "What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all---to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow." - C. H. SpurgeonARMINIANISM is a teaching regarding salvation associated with the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). The fundamental principle in Arminianism is the rejection of predestination, and a corresponding affirmation of the freedom of the human will. Shortly after his death, the followers of Arminius (later called Arminians) presented a statement to the governing authorities of Holland in which they set forth five articles of doctrine. These were: (1) that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute; (2) that the Atonement is in intention universal; (3) that man cannot of himself exercise a saving faith, but requires God's help to attain this faith; (4) that though the grace of God is a necessary condition of human effort it does not act irresistibly in man; (5) that believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace. In essence, the Arminians maintained that God gives indispensible help in salvation, but that ultimately it is the free will of man which decides the issue. After a period of sharp theological controversy the Dutch government convened a National Synod of leading churchmen, which met in Dordrecht in the years 1618-19. At this "Synod of Dort" the members adopted five articles in direct opposition to the five articles of the Arminians. The articles of Dort have come to be known as the "five points of Calvinism." Arminian Similarities with Reformed Theology: (1) All men need to be saved from God's wrath through the atoning work of Christ (2) Both Reformed and Arminians believe, that, without the grace of God, man is totally incapable of responding to the Gospel. In this both positions are in total agreement. Arminian Differences with Reformed Theology in its understanding of grace: Lets observe at least three ways in which prevenient grace sharply differs from the biblical view of monergism: (1) That the Arminian doctrine of "prevenient grace" is universal to all persons on earth whether or not they have heard the gospel. (But doesn't the Bible state, "how can one be believe if they have not heard?" and "...faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." - Rom 10: 14-17. This view, then, embraces the idea that the gospel is not necessary for one to be saved. In spite of the overwhelming case made by Paul against the Gentiles in Romans 1-3, the Arminians believe that some who have never heard the gospel can actually live their whole life without violating their conscience in sinless perfection, and thus be saved.) (2) Prevenient grace is not effectual but puts us in a "neutral" frame of reference (fallen man can either swing to receive or reject Christ) But this raises a question. If our desires are "neutral" what causes a man to choose one way or another? It is both biblical (A thorn tree does not produce grapes) and self-evident that we always choose something based on our greatest desires. If we do not desire God or the world, choice is either impossible or it is by chance. Lets be clear that this concept is no where taught in the Bible. Arminians awkwardly force this on the Scripture in order to hold their system together. This alone should lead us to reject it. Unaided reason should NEVER be the foundation of our theological insights. (3) Arminians hold that while still unregenerate some can and will improve on grace ... that God's prevenient grace takes us part of the way to salvation but man's still unregenerate will does the rest. Therefore, if all human beings have this prevenient grace at some point in their life, it wasn't grace that makes men to differ but the persons who made use of what God gave them which makes them to differ. In other words some men had the ability to create a right thought, generate a right affection, or originate a right volition that was autonomous, beyond and independent of grace that led to their salvation while other men could not come up with what was needed to be saved. Why do some men make use of grace and not others? So, to the Arminian, the grace of God is still penultimate while the sinners faith is ultimate, the sine qua non of his salvation. So whether or not God extends prevenient grace you still have the same result: one man from his unregenerate will generates belief, another man from his unregenerate will does not generate belief and rejects Christ. What makes these two persons to differ? If they both received prevenient grace, why does one believe and not the other? One is making a morally good choice and the other a morally bad choice. Any way to look at Arminian prevenient grace it is merit that ultimately makes men to differ and besides having no biblical support this makes the position untenable. They are making the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and do not agree that it is the effectual gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble. I guess Arminians believe that some beggars are more equal than others. The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Even with prevenient grace theoretically putting humanity in a neutral position, we would still lack the quickening Spirit to give us what we need. How is it then that the natural man can understand or desire God independent of grace? Can a blind man see prior to his eyes being opened? Can a man with a heart of stone love and desire God before His heart is made flesh? How can a ox desire flesh to eat or water rise above its source? We believe that salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end. He deserves all the glory. While we were still helpless Christ died for us and His death purchased everything we need to be saved, including our regeneration. For an unregenerate man would not ever desire the things of God on his own. If God's grace does not save us then man still ultimately decides based on some principle within, either good or evil. yes from another "man" www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prevenient.html
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 16:23:41 GMT -5
I look to the History of the Jewish Nation, as God's Church to be Fashioned in His Wisdom.. Heb 8:1-5... The Apostolic age of the Church, and not depart from Divine revelation, or to mofity God's heavenly pattern, by putting into practice and culturally and organizationally, according to human, earthly ideas, that bring Christ down to man level, and deny His deity altogether.. Look around my friend, and you will see proliferation of man-made ideas in the church today.. God's timeless pattern standard is the same today as back then.. LOL, right and you don't read any commentaries do you or anything else LOL. I agree though that the church is in shambloes today, study history church history, nothing new under the sun... thats in the Bible Ecc 1:9
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 16:25:53 GMT -5
Differences between Semi-Pelagianism and Arminian Beliefs and why both still appeal to natural human ability, apart from grace.
[Semi-Pelagianism] While not denying the necessity of Grace for salvation, Semi-Pelagianism maintains that the first steps towards the Christian life are ordinarily taken by the human will and that Grace supervened only later.
[Arminianism] In contrast to semi-pelagianism, Arminianism teaches that the first steps of grace are taken by God. This teaching derives from the Remonstrance of 1610, a codification of the teachings of Jacob Arminius (1559-1609). Here are the 3rd and 4th articles of five to show how close it actually sounds to traditional Calvinism, but still left with a small island of righteousness for man, as you will see:
III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good--nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through his Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].
IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].
Reformed Theology by contrast teaches that the natural men may have common grace, common illuminations, and common affections that are from the Spirit of God. Natural men have sometimes the influences of the Spirit of God in His common operations and gifts, and therefore God's Spirit is said to be striving with them, and they are said to resist the Spirit, (Acts 7:51;) to grieve and vex God's Holy Spirit, (Eph. 4:30; Isaiah 63:10;) While indeed fallen men resist grace every day when the gospel is presented to them, for that is their nature and desire. But it is important to note that God can and does make His grace effectual or irresistible at a time of His sovereign merciful choosing (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65; John 3:8; Matt 11:27; 1 Corinthians 1:9; Paul's conversion in Acts 2:39, Acts 9; Rom 8:30 ROM 9:11-24; 1 Cor. 1:9-26; Gal. 1:6-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6; 1 Thess. 2:12; 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 1:18; 4:1-4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3-10). If this kind of effectual grace can be resisted, as Arminians claim, then faith is understood as a natural preparation for saving grace, as the fulfillment of a condition for receiving supernatural grace by the performance of something that is within man's natural capacity/desire to do. Man, in this scheme, cooperates with God's prevenient grace according to his native ability. But the Scripture teaches that salvation is not a faith-contribution or a principle standing ultimately independent of God's action of grace. Rather, it does not owe exclusively to man's natural endowment with a free will and does not arise out of an inherent capacity of the natural man, as Arminians teach. Rather, God acts unilaterally and exclusively, taking the sole initiative in a free act of sovereign grace—grace that is altogether prior to, and productive of, justifying faith.
Hannah More said: "The sacred writings frequently point out the analogy between natural and spiritual things. The same Spirit, which in the creation of the world moved upon the face of the waters, operates on the human character to produce a new heart and a new life. By this operation the affections and faculties of the man receive a new impulse -- his dark understanding is illuminated, his rebellious will is subdued, his irregular desires are rectified; his judgment is informed, his imagination is chastised, his inclinations are sanctified; his hopes and fears are directed to their true and adequate end. Heaven becomes the object of his hopes, and eternal separation from God the object of his fears. His love of the world is transformed into the love of God. The lower faculties are pressed into the new service. The senses have a higher direction. The whole internal frame and constitution receive a nobler bent; the intents and purposes of the mind, a sublimer aim; his aspirations, a loftier flight; his vacillating desires find a fixed object; his vagrant purposes a settled home; his disappointed heart a certain refuge. That heart, no longer the worshiper of the world, is struggling to become its conqueror. Our blessed Redeemer, in overcoming the world, bequeathed us his command to overcome it also; but as he did not give the command without the example, so he did not give the example without the offer of a power to obey the command."
While it is clear that Arminian Theology and Semi-Pelagianism have a different view of grace; (Arminianism believes God must initiate with grace and Semi-pelagianism believes man must initiate to receive grace), but both systems ultimately share in common a characteristic - synergism. The question Arminians still need to answer is why do some people believe the gospel and not others? Is the power/desire to cooperate with God's grace itself a work of the Holy Spirit or of the natural man? How can a natural man produce holy affections without God illuminating the mind and heart? What ultimately makes men to differ? grace or faith?
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 18, 2006 16:39:01 GMT -5
I don't see here how you can say that Arminianism "appeal(s) to natural human ability, apart from grace." The Arminian does not appeal to natural ability but rather to gracious ability. If Arminians accept Total Depravity as total inablility (and they do), then you are again distorting the truth to speak of Arminianism appealing to natural human ability. There's no "island of righteousness" in Arminian theology. Once again, you are trying to make Arminianism equal to Roman Catholicism. You pointed out yourself that "Both Reformed and Arminians believe, that, without the grace of God, man is totally incapable of responding to the Gospel. In this both positions are in total agreement." Based on that if Arminianism leaves "an island of righteousness", then so does Reformed theology. It appears to me that though at times you clearly separate Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism at other times you mix them. I encourage you to make a greater effort to be consistent here. Just because Arminian theology is in close proximity to Semi-Pelagiansim / Roman Catholicism doesn't mean it's false. If that were the case, then the Reformed concept of sovereignty would be rejected because it's similar to the Islamic concept of sovereignty. I agree that both Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism hold to synergism, but, as you've shown, one is a synergism of nature and the other a synergism of grace. Man's part is always and only graciously enabled so that he cannot boast. This is why your continued accusation that Arminians need to get over themselves and give God the glory is a strawman attack. The Arminian view of salvation is what Roger E. Olson has termed "evangelical synergism". I wrote a short article on it that you may be interested in reading here: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1143671095
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 16:48:18 GMT -5
I look to the History of the Jewish Nation, as God's Church to be Fashioned in His Wisdom.. Heb 8:1-5... The Apostolic age of the Church, and not depart from Divine revelation, or to mofity God's heavenly pattern, by putting into practice and culturally and organizationally, according to human, earthly ideas, that bring Christ down to man level, and deny His deity altogether.. Look around my friend, and you will see proliferation of man-made ideas in the church today.. God's timeless pattern standard is the same today as back then.. LOL, right and you don't read any commentaries do you or anything else LOL. I agree though that the church is in shambloes today, study history church history, nothing new under the sun... thats in the Bible Ecc 1:9 If you would of studied the Book of Acts chapter 7:44-53, you would see the fashion, and God's pattern for Moses, God gave the Ten Commandments as the pattern and moral standard to all, and erected a tabernacle in the midst of the camp of Israel as a copy and a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Just as surely as God had a pattern for the Tabernacle under the Old Covenant, God has a pattern under the new church..The NT Apostles didn't just throw this together, on some whim, or the vain use of Maslow theory or psychological techniques or programs designed to change the standards, attitudes and behavior of individuals in sensitivity training . No , God's church will be fashioned by Divine Revelation, it was the Father and Son, through the Holy Spirit recorded in the Gospels, Acts, The epistles, and the letters of the seven churches in Rev... and Jude 3-6, still is the weight we are to use to judge the fruit of any doctrine..
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Post by wideglide on Apr 19, 2006 0:17:03 GMT -5
Steve I kind of understand your point but synergism is synergism no matter how you look at it, the Calvinist believe it is all God and the Arminian believes it is God and man working together.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 19, 2006 0:24:22 GMT -5
LOL, right and you don't read any commentaries do you or anything else LOL. I agree though that the church is in shambloes today, study history church history, nothing new under the sun... thats in the Bible Ecc 1:9 If you would of studied the Book of Acts chapter 7:44-53, you would see the fashion, and God's pattern for Moses, God gave the Ten Commandments as the pattern and moral standard to all, and erected a tabernacle in the midst of the camp of Israel as a copy and a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Just as surely as God had a pattern for the Tabernacle under the Old Covenant, God has a pattern under the new church..The NT Apostles didn't just throw this together, on some whim, or the vain use of Maslow theory or psychological techniques or programs designed to change the standards, attitudes and behavior of individuals in sensitivity training . No , God's church will be fashioned by Divine Revelation, it was the Father and Son, through the Holy Spirit recorded in the Gospels, Acts, The epistles, and the letters of the seven churches in Rev... and Jude 3-6, still is the weight we are to use to judge the fruit of any doctrine.. I think we are done, you went from discussing regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit to church history and other things, take care. Steve I will read that info you posted, thanks
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