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Post by Steve Noel on Feb 9, 2006 21:13:20 GMT -5
This is an incredible resource. Everything you want of Wesley, Fletcher, Clarke, Finney, Arminius, and more. wesley.nnu.edu
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 14:11:17 GMT -5
Awesome site, every calvinist needs to go here look what happened to me ;D
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Concerned Christian
Guest
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Post by Concerned Christian on Apr 13, 2006 17:40:37 GMT -5
It's been said over and over again, to no avail...
The system of doctrine known as Arminianism is heresy. It is an offshoot from Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. It has been adversely affecting the church and its doctrine for over 250 years. Men like Finney and Wesley, being the charismatic personalities they were, propagated the doctrine and resurrected the Pelagian error from the pit of hell once again to persecute the church of Christ. Today’s Arminians are not necessarily the same caliber as those of old. Historic Arminianism is altogether heretical. However, contemporary Arminianism is often confusing; it melds together a number of different theological ideas to come up with a theological “soup”. For the rest of the article please visit www.calvinistgadfly.com/?p=201
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 14, 2006 18:39:04 GMT -5
Prove it (that is my new favorite saying
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 17, 2006 12:10:00 GMT -5
The above quote was written by George Whitefield in a letter to John Wesley. He later went on to write, "But the most important objections you have urged against this doctrine as reasons why you reject it, being seriously considered, and faithfully tried by the Word of God, will appear to be of no force at all." So, might I content that Scripture faithfully disproves Arminianism. For those who insist that the weight of Scriptural proof must also be backed up by logical merit, Woe to you! But here is a good logical reality: At face value we were never given the choice to be born the first time, nor the choice of who are parents would be, nor what country we would be born into, nor if we would be absent of any defect of birth, nor what age in history we would be born, nor what time of day!
Why then do we insist that we should have any say or argument in when and how we are born again of the Spirit of God? And what baby breathed the breath of life for a time and decided to crawl back into the womb? Nonsense! Thus Arminianism makes no sense at all!-Jeff Here is the source of my quotes: www.spurgeon.org/~phil//wesley.htm
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 12:15:23 GMT -5
I have a question about election.... Doenst one have to run for election if they hope to have any chance of being elected?
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 17, 2006 12:33:49 GMT -5
I have a question about election.... Doenst one have to run for election if they hope to have any chance of being elected? Here's a good definition of election: Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race... God chooses what person is formed in the womb the first time and has predestined who will be born again. So according to your question I would answer: God chooses both who will run and who will win the race!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 12:51:28 GMT -5
That is not what scripture says...
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ch 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
David surely didnt believe like you, Psa 49:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah. Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:
For God so loved THE WORLD, not a few out of the world.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 17, 2006 13:26:47 GMT -5
what a silly reply..really Evan, I would have thought you guys on hear a little better versed in the WORD
Read the whole book and nothing but the book. So Evan by your argument the whole world will be saved based on (in this example) John 1
well lets look at John chapter 3
John 3:16-19
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So some WILL NOT be saved..it doesn't say some will not POSSIBLY be saved, it says THEY loved darkness rahter then light not they POSSIBLY loved darkness rather then light
Okay so men lived darkness rather then light EVEN though light came into the world..your argument is based on bad study of the word.
Next
2 Peter 3:9
Scripture needs to be studied in he context of WHOM is being address..go to the beginning 1 Peter 1:2...who is he talking to....Gods Elect
So the light aspect that you use, because light has come into the world all can or will be saved is not correct, the scriptures shows that all will not, remember the wide path and the narrow path..MANY are on the wide path to destruction, so salvation is not for all, Christ's sacrifice is SUFFICIENT for all but EFFICIENT FOR FEW.
Okay so your last comment was
Lets Look at Christ prayer in John 17
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Hmm, he didn't pray for the world, how selfish of Christ to only pray for those with whom the FATHER has given him!!
Psalm 49:1
Uh, what's you point here??? I don't see how this has any bearing on the topic at hand...but...
All the inhabitants listen up (modern terms) this is akin to us preaching, everyone will hear the gospel and we are to preach it but...but...not everyone responds, once again many are on the woide path and many on that day will say Lord, Lord, and he will say...I think you know the rest of the story.
Now if we look at the scripture by using scripture we can see the whole story and not just the views that satisfy our desire to say "I DID IT MY WAY"
For Gods Glory!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 13:35:32 GMT -5
My point was this, all who turn to Christ in repentance and faith can be saved, not a select few.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 13:37:35 GMT -5
I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism. But I will make one more point in the form of a question.
Does God send poeple to hell?
Under the five points of calvinism he does.
To even hint towards univeralism shows that you take no thought of what we were discussing. We werent not talking about universalism, that is a known heresy. We were talking about election, or in this case, personal predestination.
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 17, 2006 16:25:10 GMT -5
I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism. But I will make one more point in the form of a question. Does God send poeple to hell? Evan, Read Romans chapter 9, the entire thing (it's rather short). As an Arminian, How do you reconcile that to your question? Specifically, What was Paul's inspired answer to your common question (verses 19 & 20)? Also, look at 2 Peter 2:9-11... I'm interested in your response to these verses too. You asked for proof for the unbiblical and unlogical nature of Arminianism, we gave you an amount of proof and you got tired of it (You wrote: I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism.) Earlier you also suggested that every calvinist needs to visit that website... you opened up the floor to be challenged on that statement! -Jeff
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Post by rsmportland on Apr 17, 2006 17:01:35 GMT -5
Ummm...could somebody cliff note the whole calvinism arminian debate for me...
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 17, 2006 17:26:11 GMT -5
I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism. But I will make one more point in the form of a question. Does God send poeple to hell? Evan, Read Romans chapter 9, the entire thing (it's rather short). As an Arminian, How do you reconcile that to your question? Specifically, What was Paul's inspired answer to your common question (verses 19 & 20)? Also, look at 2 Peter 2:9-11... I'm interested in your response to these verses too. You asked for proof for the unbiblical and unlogical nature of Arminianism, we gave you an amount of proof and you got tired of it (You wrote: I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism.) Earlier you also suggested that every calvinist needs to visit that website... you opened up the floor to be challenged on that statement! -Jeff Greetings Jeff.. May i say something here, that many, many times this part of Holy Scriture is used by an arguement in most if not all in a theory called Calvinism... It is liken unto a well versed play, and in that being said, when God becomes that small that we can figure out and know in turn His Great Mysteries all things, then he ceased to God.. But in turn, man has become liken himself above the Deity of Christ( brought Christ to man's level), and Not of Christ Jesus to be Uplifted..It can never and will never happen... As far as Romans chapter 9:19,20.Is just that God is goverened in His nature, not our will, and will never be. God is governed by His love, mercy and moral intergrity. And those who say to mean that God arbitrarily chooses some people for salvation and others for destruction have misconstrued this passge of Holy Scripture altogether.. How do i know this read about Pharoah' heart and when it became harderned God sent his servant 12 times to speak to him, each time, he in a way of sorrow, not repentance(To Obey God Commands) ask Mose's to stop the curse, and God did, and each time Pharaoh went back to his old ways again, and said ' Who is God that i should obey him?"..Until God said enough is enough, and hardened His heart.. Just like much like others today, they will have Sinned their Day of Grace away, and will not know it when it happens, they go about happy in their sins, unconcerned, no cares, or any thoughts about God and side with him, but yet they have been taught, once saved , always saved ...and only God will know when He has had enough of this rebellion .It will be called then an Apostasy, no turning back or there will be no desire, He will give them over to their own lust, and reprobate mind...This also will be the beginning a turning away first, before the Antichrist comes..and this also applies to 2 Peter 2:20-22.. God Bless E.Wallace
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 17, 2006 20:31:42 GMT -5
Romans 9 should not be ripped from it's context. Chapters 9-11 form a cohesive argument. If you take Romans 9 out of it's context it would seem to support Calvinism, but when kept in context it does not.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 20:33:57 GMT -5
First let me rephrase my question because I was rushed...
Did God choose, before the foundation of the world, to send a certain unchosen few, to hell for eternity where they will be burned for forever in concious torment?
Under even classical Calvinism there is no reason to preach, pray or weep for sinners becuase ultimately the people who were supposed to be saved will be. I abhor Calvinist doctrine for that reason, yes i ws a Calvinist, but a rather uninformed one. I examined and meditated on the doctrine (as is evident in some of my older posts in other sections) and concluded through scripture and prayer that the Bible teaches the exact opposite of Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election. Eternal Security gives people a license for licentiousness and sin and liberality. I am finished with this debate.
God will not judge me by your opinion.
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Post by sean on Apr 17, 2006 23:04:31 GMT -5
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 7:24:47 GMT -5
Evan, Read Romans chapter 9, the entire thing (it's rather short). As an Arminian, How do you reconcile that to your question? Specifically, What was Paul's inspired answer to your common question (verses 19 & 20)? Also, look at 2 Peter 2:9-11... I'm interested in your response to these verses too. You asked for proof for the unbiblical and unlogical nature of Arminianism, we gave you an amount of proof and you got tired of it (You wrote: I am done debating this childish arminianism and cavinism.) Earlier you also suggested that every calvinist needs to visit that website... you opened up the floor to be challenged on that statement! -Jeff God sent his servant 12 times to speak to him, each time, he in a way of sorrow, not repentance(To Obey God Commands) ask Mose's to stop the curse, and God did, and each time Pharaoh went back to his old ways again, and said ' Who is God that i should obey him?"..Until God said enough is enough, and hardened His heart.. God Bless E.Wallace Please go back and read Exodus again, In Exodus 7:13 GOD hardened his heart the first time, the first time not 12 times after God got frustrated, also I don't recall 12 plagues? here are the scriptures to read in Exodus 7:3 God says I will harden Pharos heart, then in 7:4 he states Pharoah will not harken...why, because God hardened his heart. 7:1-4 God said he will harden Pharoa's heart 7:13 God Hardened his heart (first plague) 8:1-15 8:16-19 8:20-32 9:1-7 9:8-12 Lord Hardened 9:13-35 10:1-20 Lord Hardened 10:21-30 Lord Hardened
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 7:32:09 GMT -5
Read this which will give an great explanation of what the will of man is, I did read some of your links and agree with some of them but only in the sense that not every person they qoute I agree with Jonanthan Edwards Freedow of the Will, excellent read and great information...WARNING it may shake your armenian view though www.jonathanedwards.com/text/FoW/FOWOutline.htm
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 7:39:42 GMT -5
First let me rephrase my question because I was rushed... Under even classical Calvinism there is no reason to preach, pray or weep for sinners becuase ultimately the people who were supposed to be saved will be. I abhor Calvinist doctrine for that reason, yes i ws a Calvinist, but a rather uninformed one. I examined and meditated on the doctrine (as is evident in some of my older posts in other sections) and concluded through scripture and prayer that the Bible teaches the exact opposite of Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election. Eternal Security gives people a license for licentiousness and sin and liberality. I am finished with this debate. God will not judge me by your opinion. Oh evan I do weep for you all on this board and that the truth would be revealed to you. As you stated above "but a rather uninformed one" That is clearly obvious and I say thta not to demean you but if you or anyone have studied calvinism you would not make blatment false statements as those lets see who was a Calvinist Jonathan Edwards (he was good preacher) George Whitfield (another good one) John Clavin (yes he evangelized also) Martin Luther (he started it all, Sola Fide) Asahel Nettleton Calvinist and was preaching before finney hit the street) There are so many more, brother evan study history and you will see most of the revivlas were led by Calvinist (most) remeber fiunney came at the end of the second great awakening which many seem to forget, the scotish revival...the welsh revival..calvinist. So saying all that brother, I admonsh you before you make statement that can be historically proven worng..do a little research first, historical calvinism was all for preaching and weeping for souls a good book to read is one by Iain H. Murray The Old evangelicism He even states there are some things we can learn (all) from John Wesley and I agree!
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 8:09:23 GMT -5
God sent his servant 12 times to speak to him, each time, he in a way of sorrow, not repentance(To Obey God Commands) ask Mose's to stop the curse, and God did, and each time Pharaoh went back to his old ways again, and said ' Who is God that i should obey him?"..Until God said enough is enough, and hardened His heart.. God Bless E.Wallace Please go back and read Exodus again, In Exodus 7:13 GOD hardened his heart the first time, the first time not 12 times after God got frustrated, also I don't recall 12 plagues? here are the scriptures to read in Exodus 7:3 God says I will harden Pharos heart, then in 7:4 he states Pharoah will not harken...why, because God hardened his heart. 7:1-4 God said he will harden Pharoa's heart 7:13 God Hardened his heart (first plague) 8:1-15 8:16-19 8:20-32 9:1-7 9:8-12 Lord Hardened 9:13-35 10:1-20 Lord Hardened 10:21-30 Lord Hardened Exodus Chapter 7 What do you think the word harden means? It means his heart (Pharaoh) was already opposed to God, please read Ex 5:2, 7:3, 8:15, 19, 9:7 God himself, was acting own a divine principle that applies to all unrepentant hearts. When a person is persists in rebellion against God and His word, God will finally ordains that the heart be headened.. Romans 9:18 a great example. What you have failed to see is that the early judgements of the plaques softened Pharaoh’s heart a little(brought sorrow) but not Godly sorrow, you see this when God removed each plague, his heart was hardened again, Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart whenever God showed mercy, how do I know this, read Ex 8:8-15. Now it was 12 times, God sent his servant Moses.. and I have studied it, my friend. 1. Ex 5:1 Chapter 5, Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh thus saith the Lord God of Israel, let my people go…please read on the rest of the chapter.. 2. Ex 7:10 Moses, cast the Rod down before Pharaoh 3. Ex 7:14 The water become blood 4. Ex 8:1-15 Plague of the frogs 5. Ex 8:16 Plague of lice 6. Ex 8:20 Swarm of flies 7. Ex 9: 1-7 Death of the Egyptian cattle 8. Ex 9:8-12 The plague of boils and blains 9. Ex 9:13-35 The plague of hail and fire 10. Ex 10 :1-20 The plague of locusts 11. Ex 10:21-29 The plague of darkness 12. Ex 11:1-10 The last plague the death of the First born Now how many times did God send his servant Moses to talk to Pharaoh?We just can't pick and choose scriptures to make them work. To understand the Author of the Bible, God himself, you will need to study each book in context..
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 8:53:25 GMT -5
Sorry man, like you said God is the author, God Hardened Pharaoh's heart, but you might like to say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart based on the fact that he foreknew that Pharaoh would harden his own heart LOL. It is not scriptural but it might fit what you are saying, you see most times when I deal with Arminian theology it always comes back to man is in charge and man sets the direction fro Gods action, God is sovereign over all things, Please read my post again, I said I don't recall 12 Plagues, there were only 10 plagues. I said GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart the first time in Exodus 7:3, did I lie? No, these are the facts. Please read my post again my comment on 12 was in reference to the plagues and that alone Also I would like a to make a general statement to all I would ask your forgiveness if my posts seem harsh in my writing, they are not intended that way and as many of you know trying to convey emotion or any feeling on the internet is like trying to get a rope around a fly. I stand by the message I present, but if an attitude comes out in a negative way I would beg the forgiveness of all. 1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 18, 2006 9:43:14 GMT -5
Jesse, Jeff, & Miles, I wanted to appologize that we turned your section on websites into a theological discussion. However, I do contend that all Arminian resources should come with a warning label, much the same way that we put a skull & crossbones on rat poison... Lol --------------------------------------------------------------- That being said, I would still like to hear the exegesis on Romans chapter 9 (a brief overview of the entire chapter) from an Arminian perspective. There were several arguments as to why I would bring up that chapter (that I was taking out of context of the entire book of romans, the stuff about Pharoah, that it is a common Calvinist misquote, etc.) yet I still haven't heard anyone go through it and give me an Arminian Commentary on it. A final thought for this post: Evan. I hope my posts never eluded that I thought God would judge you based on my opinions. That was never my intention.
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Post by sean on Apr 18, 2006 9:51:09 GMT -5
Romans 9 shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_two.htm"Dear Calvinist, what would you say if you discovered that people were saying of you and your newly-wedded spouse, “I hear they are planning on having six children, five of whom they plan to cruelly torture all their lives, and one of whom they plan to treat kindly”? Would you not be greatly offended that anyone would even entertain such an awful rumor? Yet that is what you are saying about God! You nullify His great attributes of love and justice with your doctrine!" by David Kirwood.
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 18, 2006 10:09:42 GMT -5
I have read much of this, although not all of it I must admit. Although I haven't read all of the Book of Mormon or all of the Koran either! An I certainly haven't read much of the Watchtower and never got past chapter 2 in L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics. I would love the opportunity to sit down with someone and go paragraph by paragraph over David Kirkwoods assessment of Calvinism, but it would take a long time. It's a nice argument against Calvinism, but even in his introduction Kirkwood shows he doesn't really even understand the nature of Arminianism! Why then would I trust his understanding of TULIP? Here's an example: There is a very easy explaination why it's so easy for an undiscipled new believer to read through Scripture and come to "Arminian" conclusions. The entire basis of Arminianism is that man can choose to be saved -- hell and all the world has reinforced that mankind from his birth is in control! You don't have to teach a sinner selfish pride, he was born with it! Duh! The moment a man is born again, the Scripture is no longer foolishness to him. As his mind is conformed to what the Bible teaches, he learns that the Bible is not a selfish book and the gospel message is not a selfish message!
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 11:10:21 GMT -5
I have read much of this, although not all of it I must admit. Although I haven't read all of the Book of Mormon or all of the Koran either! An I certainly haven't read much of the Watchtower and never got past chapter 2 in L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics. I would love the opportunity to sit down with someone and go paragraph by paragraph over David Kirkwoods assessment of Calvinism, but it would take a long time. It's a nice argument against Calvinism, but even in his introduction Kirkwood shows he doesn't really even understand the nature of Arminianism! Why then would I trust his understanding of TULIP? Here's an example: There is a very easy explaination why it's so easy for an undiscipled new believer to read through Scripture and come to "Arminian" conclusions. The entire basis of Arminianism is that man can choose to be saved -- hell and all the world has reinforced that mankind from his birth is in control! You don't have to teach a sinner selfish pride, he was born with it! Duh! The moment a man is born again, the Scripture is no longer foolishness to him. As his mind is conformed to what the Bible teaches, he learns that the Bible is not a selfish book and the gospel message is not a selfish message! Jeff, may i ask you a question? Do you believe that there are two sides to salvation? God's side and man's side, the Divine and human? Can God do our part? That would be silly to think ,just as we can't do God's part. God can't accept Christ for us, we can't save ourselves, we can't forgive ourselves of our own sins, we can't regenerate ourselves. But with this said we can do our part, repent, believe, and accept Christ Jesus as savior, and God will save us, pardon our sins and regenerates us. Many come across on this board, as am saved and there is no need, or ignore their spiritual life, oh! with much chatter, i am saved and that is all there is to it. I wonder how many on this board, has raised the question of why that Holy Scripture has said Acts 2:40, 'Save yourselves from this untoward generation', and really in pray,and has given must study and thought to what this really means. Do you know what it means to be slothful, in the eyes of a Living God? Peter here is saying, "devote yourselves to the apostles teachings"These teachings aren't mere man's teachings, but the choosen vessel's of honour, empowered with the word of God: moved by the wind of the driving force of the Holy Spirit, from in their words are the OT, eye witness accounts, and the NT letters, to fashioned by God's hand. Whom will receive the promise? We are to follow them who through faith and patience, who will inherit the promise. Who are those we are to follow? You see, True wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit, the driving force behind God's word to reveal Jesus, it is not "he said", "they said","them had said". The Holy Scriptures, is not about " who's who", but "who when", in God's Holy Scripture. The Bible speaks openly and deals with these, it doesn't not seek to gloss over their mistakes, nor glorify their deeds. This is there to learn from, God has done this for a reason, for it is an intense human story, but also a story touched by the Power of God. For His Glory and Honour... Leading us up to the common thread God's perfect Plan and Will, that runs through Holy Scripture, the redemption of mankind, through Christ Jesus. please do read Col 1:26-27 The New Testament is the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.. The Biblical advice to you all , is not to take Holy Scripture to build an argument of "who's who"..search the Holy Scripture so that you may know God..This brings Him Honor and Glory, and the picture that will emerge is Christ Jesus.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 12:15:27 GMT -5
See the point manna that nobody understands or should I say nobody cares to research to understand Calvinism is this.
A Calvinist does not believe that God makes the decision for us, A Calvinist does not believe we have no free will please people understand something before you beat it to death.
(this is all in reference to your two sides to salvation)
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
So if we are dead in sins and trespasses and it is nothing we do or can do since we are dead...what must happen...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So you must be born again in order to come to Christ (born again = regeneration).
For the life of me I don't know how anyone can say that we are born again based on our own decision, we are dead, dead, dead in sin, when you are dead you are dead and need to be born again...not of flesh..(which would be by your own efforts) but by the Spirit of God, you can't make a move toward God until the Spirit does His work upon the dead persons spirit.
Question: What point are you trying to make about acts 2:40, other then to pull out and away from the wicked world which we are in, which I am in agreement with, I think I understand you right here??
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 18, 2006 13:04:20 GMT -5
See the point manna that nobody understands or should I say nobody cares to research to understand Calvinism is this. A Calvinist does not believe that God makes the decision for us, A Calvinist does not believe we have no free will please people understand something before you beat it to death. (this is all in reference to your two sides to salvation) Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: So if we are dead in sins and trespasses and it is nothing we do or can do since we are dead...what must happen... John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So you must be born again in order to come to Christ (born again = regeneration). For the life of me I don't know how anyone can say that we are born again based on our own decision, we are dead, dead, dead in sin, when you are dead you are dead and need to be born again...not of flesh..(which would be by your own efforts) but by the Spirit of God, you can't make a move toward God until the Spirit does His work upon the dead persons spirit. Question: What point are you trying to make about acts 2:40, other then to pull out and away from the wicked world which we are in, which I am in agreement with, I think I understand you right here?? Greetings, 'What about Nicodemus, in his time was a very religious man indeed, and the thoughts are that he was so ever so blameless, for if he had wore a white flower of a blameless life, it was he. And yet, Jesus said, "Ye must be born again", notice Jesus never said these words to the women of Samaria, or Mary Magdalene.. But who he had said this too, was he, whom was the leading member of the Sanhedrin.. Why.. because he knew the Law of Moses and the Faith of Abe..when Jesus said that in John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their hearts: that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and i should heal them.. The same fire(Holy Spirit) that can melt the wax over a heart, can harden the clay, by resisting the Holy Spirit. For they searched the scriptures daily, but did not know God. But Nicodemus, he believed and his heart was not hardened by his own disbelief..he knew Jesus, was sent by God.. But if he were to ever enter the Kingdom of God, he must be Born-again.. Was he then dead, as dead, as you say? And the point to Acts 2:40 that i have made, is just what it is..to Know God , when you know God, you side with His holiness, you thoughts align up with His , his ways are yours. You work out your own salvation, with must Fear and trembling , it is a race set before us, be not a castaway. As far as Eph chapter 2:1 is the New Life in Christ.. So my question to you.." are you first born-again, and then repent",?
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 13:38:53 GMT -5
wow you can stretch something to fit your needs
So no one else needs to be born again by your argument?? It was only to Nicodemus?? What! That's wacky!
So he was a leading member of the Pharisees...yet he still did not understand even though he knew all of the law and rules, he had head knowledge but no heart change.
You Said
"his heart was not hardened by his own disbelief..he knew Jesus, was sent by God.. But if he were to ever enter the Kingdom of God, he must be Born-again.. Was he then dead, as dead, as you say?"
So why would Christ tell him he needs to be born again...remember all of scripture, not of flesh (your own doing) but of the spirit. So if he needed to be born of the spirit it would go to say he did not have the spirit, and as we can see in 1 Cor 1:18 & 1 Cor 2:14 the natural person does not understand this things so they must be born of the spirit...uh..born again.
How can you grapple with the scriptures to your own liking and make it say that it is your decision, it's by grace alone Eph 2:8-9 and nothing you do man, dead is dead, oh that's right to you only some are dead, no one else has to be born again.. oops
look at
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Wow God the father causes us to be born again.... wrestle in your flesh as you may to make your salvation on something you did but if you are saved it is by Gods grace alone and of nothing you do...hmm remember Eph 2:8-9.
and yes you are first born again then you repent, nothing within you would choose to repent first...oh now wait I forgot..there are many that have made a chose to repent and many that have fallen away from the faith because it was as they say... a false convert, driven by convincing arguments and carnival tricks to elicit a response, a work of man not a work of God
1 Cor chapter 2 is a good read by the way, it's all God work and nothing of us.
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Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 13:40:18 GMT -5
I think this needed to be emphasized
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
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