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Post by josefurban on Apr 11, 2006 20:48:59 GMT -5
www.GospelTruth.netContains the complete works of Charles G. Finney. Definately of interest are the "Lectures to Professing Christians". We can learn a lot about how to preach convicting messages by examining the sermons of this John-the-Baptist preacher from the past!
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Concerned Christian
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Post by Concerned Christian on Apr 13, 2006 17:35:27 GMT -5
And we can learn a lot about how to motivate people by watching Joel Osteen... yeah right.
Finney was a heretic... it's kind of hard to get past that! Not exactly a good role model for Christians.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 13, 2006 17:42:47 GMT -5
Here we go again. Did God honor Finney's work ( I know that sounds pragmatic, but really it isnt)? Who are you mr. conerned Christian. You should at least have the guts to show your face if you are calling people heretics.
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Concerned Christian
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Post by Concerned Christian on Apr 13, 2006 23:40:18 GMT -5
When does God honor false teaching? When does God honor sin? I used Joel Osteen as a modern example because he too packs stadiums and churches. Just because God is still active in the lives of people who flock to Osteen, it does not justify Osteen's false message. It is a similar with Finney, the crowds and "converts" didn't justify Finney's false teaching!
As far as guts... Evan, in another post on this website you suggested people should visit an Arminian website. You made it appear that you had made an exodus from the Bible's teachings (when you said that you were once a Calvinist) and now have accepted a heretical teaching!
Where were your guts when it came to standing on God's infallible Word and on sound (healthy) doctrine... instead you buckled under the sweet empty promises of a heresy! Shame on you!
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Another Concerend Christian
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Post by Another Concerend Christian on Apr 14, 2006 7:28:33 GMT -5
www.GospelTruth.netContains the complete works of Charles G. Finney. Definitely of interest are the "Lectures to Professing Christians". We can learn a lot about how to preach convicting messages by examining the sermons of this John-the-Baptist preacher from the past! Moralist's It's all about you (insert name here), Also the link you post is one of the truest sites out there on Finney's original works, much more truthful about his works then the modern revised ones, which since it is truer to his original shows his real beliefs... please read them through, research them and THEN comment, a fool spoeaks before listneing (the message bible) Here is another great site www.the-highway.com/articleMar00.htmlEnd of revival (finney came in at the end of the revival, history proives this) www.the-highway.com/articleApr99.htmlA Baptist view www.founders.org/FJ33/article1.htmlGood read on his revival www.naphtali.com/Finney1.htmProverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. here is a quote Men, said Finney, are not converted ‘by a change wrought in their nature by creative power’ but by ‘yielding to the truth’.In his view, the Holy Spirit does no more than present the truth, along with the preacher, and thus regeneration is effected ‘by argument’ in which the sinner’s will is ‘broken down’. Revivals of Religion, p. 377. Revivals of Religion p. 195. He makes this further extraordinary statement: ‘If a person does not believe that sinners are able to obey their Maker, and really believes that the Spirit’s influences are necessary to make them able, it is impossible, with these views, to offer acceptable prayer.’ For, he alleged, such prayer would ‘insult God’ because God would be bound to give his Spirit as ‘a mere matter of common justice’ if such was man’s condition (pp. 356—70). Yikes! Problem is most of you don't understand what he said, you just go wow, he had great numbers and shows that it is WHAT I CAN DO or the SINNER can do (which doesn't jive with Eph 2:1) Here is another but I doubt anyone will read it and study it before they refute it Finney, holding to a moral government theory, reasoned that Christ’s death satisfied "public justice” by showing God’s hatred toward sin and providing for the "well-being of the universe." Finney, Systematic Theology, Page 339 praying that you all would repent and turn from heresy
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 14, 2006 10:48:22 GMT -5
Do you believe anything that is not calvinist is heresy?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 14, 2006 16:00:20 GMT -5
If not being a calvinist makes once a heretick, then John Wesley, John Fletcher, Adam Clarke, William Penn, George Fox, A. B. Simpson, William & Catherine Booth, Duncan Campbell, Leonard Ravenhill, and A. W. Tozer were all hereticks. They all were Arminians.
What about George Whitefield BEFORE he became a calvinist? Was he a heretick for a short time?
It would also mean that the preacher who converted C. H. Spurgeon was a heretick because Spurgeon was converted by a Methodist preacher.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 14, 2006 18:07:22 GMT -5
I do stand on God's infallible word. I do not however, stand on teachings that adulterate God's infallible word. I recomend you read brother Jack Jackson's article that made me finally truly examine the five points in light of scripture. The five points have been said to stand and fall together, so explain this...
Eternal Security (you can never fall away) -
"The just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb. 10:38-39)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them then the beginning." (II Peter 2:20)
Please explain these two verses in the light of eternal security. Either the Bible is wrong or Calvin is wrong. "Let every man be a liar, but God be true."
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 16, 2006 11:09:25 GMT -5
I have noticed that calvinists dont talk much when encountered with scriptures like these.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 16, 2006 11:48:39 GMT -5
Amen Josef! Great site. I frequently read and print excerpts from that site not just from Finney but from the other authors who were advocates of God's Moral Governent.
IS THAT YOU AGAIN RICK B?
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Post by josefurban on Apr 16, 2006 18:12:03 GMT -5
I find it the common experience that those who so greatly oppose the teachings of Mr Finney are those who, in their ignorance, twist his words out of context. They claim to "be enlightened" on what Finney was "really teaching", even though they won't even read his sermons or study his words in context, while those who have studied his works and enjoy the insight he received from the Spirit of God often are greatly blessed by them. I can verify that Finney clearly teaches regeneration as a neccesity for salvation, so to imply he doesn't is to lie, hopefully you are lying in ignorance because you just don't understand what he really taught, and not lying willfully (Heb 10:26-31, Rev 21:8). Granted, Finney did not have everything right, but that does not make him a heretic. Nobody is perfect in knowledge. The last time I checked, Jesus was the only One who never did anything wrong. I also find it the common experience that the only one's who so radically oppose Mr Finney are those who hold to Calvinistic teaching. Why is this? It is because Finney utterly demolished the views of Calvinism and repeatedly shown how they did not match up with the Word of God. Since he so completely and radically demolishes the strongholds of Calvinistic thought, Calvinists have nothing else to defend themselves with against him other than to try to twist his words out of context and call him a "heretic". If you want to know the truth about the life of Mr Finney and what he really taught, in his own words (not in the words of some liar who twists his words out of context), then read this biography of his revivals: 65.108.220.179/books/CHARLES%20FINNEY.htmYou will see that he was mightily used of God and mightily baptised in the power of the Holy Ghost. Conviction (which only the Holy Spirit can bring) was so heavy upon his hearers that some even couldn't speak for several days. Multitudes were converted and filled with the Spirit of God, not because Finney was special, but because he was obedient to the Lord. Finney was just a man, but even so, we can greatly benefit from studying his sermons and learning from his experience. I would advise all not to speak evil of those things which you are ignorant of. I've read many articles that call Finney a heretic and none offer a significant case that doesn't twist the facts. They all try to find a "speck" in his eye and twist his words out of context, even to the point of blatantly lying, in order to prove him a heretic. And why so? Because they stand stronger for Calvinism than they do for CHRIST. If not, then such people would obey the commandments of Jesus and "judge righteous judgment" and stop lying in order to protect their erred theological views. Some will defend their Calvinistic theology to the point of lying, which means you have aligned yourself more with John Calvin (and the devil by lying) than with Christ. And if you are lying willfully, then I would highly warn you of Revelation 21:8 and urge you to repent. I would advise you, dear concerned Christians, if you are true Christians, then as a brother and fellow laborer in Christ I exhort you not to speak evil of those things which you do not understand but research such matters for yourself first and present your case clearly in truth. Indeed, it is true that a "fool speaks before listening". So before you speak against Finney, research and listen to what he really taught in his own words as I have, and not some lies that some Calvinists fed you through very biased attacks and splinter hunting.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 10:05:51 GMT -5
I am hear to tell you that every man that ever preached the gospel had someone label him a heretic, even Jesus. If we run around labeling people and causing division among the people whom you share the closest union with, than this board might as well cease to be. We can all agree that Rick Warren, Osteen, Duplantis, Copeland, Hinn, and the like are heretics, but please, those people we agree on (I hope).
If you havent noticed, Mr. Concerned, there are a number of people now posting on this board that are altogether hell-bound and lost in trespasses and sins, without hope in the world, with God's wrath abiding on them, but yet you are here calling finney a heretic.
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 17, 2006 11:21:37 GMT -5
Evan, I read your post a couple days ago while looking over the board and I wanted to respond to your questions concerning eternal security right then, but I have been spending time with my wife this weekend so I wasn't able to fully prepare for my answer. To best look at Heb 10:38-39, I'll point to verse 35 and 36 where the inspired writer is encourging a believer to have confidence in faith. (quoting verse 23) "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is FAITHFUL." The reason we can have confidence in our salvation is because God is the author of our salvation -- and He is faithful and reliable! Hallelujah! We were born again completely through His death, burial, and resurrection... what a timely "Easter" message! In verse 39, the inspired writer was noting that "WE ARE NOT LIKE THOSE" who shrink back... who are those? Look at Romans 1:17-18... those are the unrighteous who "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against." Evan, those verses are NOT talking about believers shrinking back from their salvation! They are telling believers to have confidence that when we are made righteous through Christ we can have confidence in salvation... hence those verse are a proof for what is commonly called "eternal security." Now, in regards to 2 Peter 2:20... The text is addressing the topic of false teachers and false prophets. What is the first attempt of any false teacher? Hmmm, perhaps that would be to look as much like a true teacher! False teachers throughout the history of Christianity have always professed to be true teachers. That is what this text is making known -- how to identify and seperate the TRUE from the FALSE. In that whole chapter of 2 Peter, besides the FACT that the Scripture comes right out and tells us that they are false, Scripture also tells us they are lawless scoffers. Evan, where else in Scripture does God refer to true, born-again Christians as false, lawless scoffers? It doesn't add up that is text is talking about people losing their salvation. Though these false teachers may profess salvation and have some type of intelectual knowledge of the way of righteousness, it is quite clear that their profession is false and their knowledge further condemns them. Hope this helps... - Jeff
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Post by jefffuller on Apr 17, 2006 11:38:56 GMT -5
I am hear to tell you that every man that ever preached the gospel had someone label him a heretic, even Jesus. If we run around labeling people and causing division among the people whom you share the closest union with, than this board might as well cease to be. We can all agree that Rick Warren, Osteen, Duplantis, Copeland, Hinn, and the like are heretics, but please, those people we agree on (I hope). Evan, you just contradicted yourself. In the last sentence you did exactly what you condemned in the first two sentences. You labeled people and caused a division between people who you view are heretics and people you consider to rightly preach the Gospel. Secondly, should we accept all of Finney's teachings in order to not offend the hell-bound people who are now posting here? We should accept anything Finney said that was true and reject any heretical (false) teaching that he taught. We should weigh all things against what is taught in God's inerrent, holy word... and we should do this whether it is popular or not! Please don't appeal to us with emotion. If we have compassion on those who are hell-bound in this forum we should be willing to be honest in all means. We should not cover up errors in men's teaching for that is not compassionate at all! Ministers are fallible, while God's word is without error! - Jeff
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 20, 2006 0:48:55 GMT -5
Just had a thought...
Ok.. I'll do more than think it... If it is true one cannot fall away from the faith or be decieved and stop believing the truth... Then how could a true Christian make an exodus from the truth or accept heresy? Won't he persevere to the end or not be able to resist God's grace? Or is it true that one CAN be deceived even though he once WAS in the faith?
Hmmm....
Miles
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 22, 2006 13:57:20 GMT -5
Why do we need to hold fast if we cant fall away? Can a true believer not hold fast?
Calvinism is inconsistent, very inconsistent.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 13:44:03 GMT -5
JOSEF said: Some will defend their Calvinistic theology to the point of lying, which means you have aligned yourself more with John Calvin (and the devil by lying) than with Christ.
Brother, do you REALLY believe that?
I thought lying was a result of sin, not Calvinistic teaching.
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Post by josefurban on Apr 24, 2006 22:21:31 GMT -5
JOSEF said: Some will defend their Calvinistic theology to the point of lying, which means you have aligned yourself more with John Calvin (and the devil by lying) than with Christ. Brother, do you REALLY believe that? I thought lying was a result of sin, not Calvinistic teaching. I never said or implied that lying was a result of Calvinistic teaching. Lying is a result of a impure heart that is full of sin. However, I have repeatedly seen Calvinists flat out LIE about the teachings of Charles Finney. Rather than obeying Jesus Christ by telling the whole truth and speaking out of clear and righteous judgment, they would rather twist things out of context and lie in order to back up their theology. I have even heard by some Calvinists that Finney didn't teach justification by faith! Of course, if you do even a brief overview of Finney's ministry and sermons it is extremely clear that he did indeed teach this and other fundamental evangelical doctrines that are commonly held among "protestants". In attacking the ministry of Finney (which strong Calvinists usually do endlessly), they have caused division and contention rather than admonition, exhortation, and loving correction. Their motive in pointing out a "wolf in sheeps clothing", as they call him, is not to instruct other believers to discern clearly because they are genuinly concerned out of love, but because they seek to defend the Calvinistic theology that Finney utterly demolishes in his works. If they can prove him a heretick, then they can discredit his works and thereby discredit his clear teachings against the doctrines of Calvinism. And I found it neccesary to point this out and the errors of getting lost in a doctrine rather than uncompromisingly standing on the Solid Rock of Christ alone. Hope that explains myself better. God bless.
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