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Post by ejuliot on Apr 12, 2006 14:53:49 GMT -5
Morluna and Valentine, You misunderstand me very greatly. I am very sorry that I offended you. I really was not attempting to. Just to let you know as was looking for those pictures I was so upset and saddened by what was happening to millions of children that I was to the point of tears. To say that I posted these in a "irreverent, flippant, and dismissive" attitude is actually the opposite of what I was doing. It sickens me to know that millions of babies are dying and that people can Flippantly say a woman has a choice when human life is involved. When I was learning about WWII in school we watched documentary after documentary of the Holocaust. They were traumatizing to me but they showed me the reality of what Hitler had done. It enraged me that so many people could die and so many people could ignore the fact. I was hoping that by seeing the reality of what was happening to children that you would be enraged at this injustice as well. Every person who said they agreed with what this women was doing, I am afraid, did not understand the stark reality of the decision she was making. When her daughter came out of that building her baby looked just like those pictures. After this her child was thrown in a trash can and disposed of. All I was attempting to do was to say how can this be love? When a child is mutilated and murdered for the sake of convenience? Also, I am afraid that you assume too much. You have said many times "you don't know me, don't make assumptions about me" but then you turn around and do it to me. You say that I am offensive because of what I say and pictures I post, I find your profanity offensive and your pictures as well. I would like to make this crystal clear, Valentine, Morluna, I care about both of you very much. I care what you have to say, and I am sooo sorry if you were upset by this picture. I had no intention of upsetting you. You may mock me, call me names, and tell me I need help. I don't care, I will continue to treat you with respect. If I have ever done anything or said anything that was disrespectful to you it was absolutely unintended. This does not mean that I will not be truthful with you. I will share the truth about sin, hell, and abortion. If I did not it would be unloving. So, this is the truth, this is what happens to children, that mother may have been "loving' her daughter but she was not loving her grandchild. It is NOT a loving thing to kill any child no matter how poor, disabled, hurt, etc... the mother is. This is the truth and it is spoken in love. I will not lie to you or sugar coat the truth. If you support abortion in any form you are saying that you support what has happened to these children in these pictures. This is true. What is also true is that your stance on abortion is much less important than what will happen to you on judgment day. I fear what may happen to you and I do not want either of you to go to hell. I would be devastated if I found out that either of you died without being saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. IF hell is real and what I am saying is really true, then consider my motives. Why would I spend all this time trying to convince you of the truth while knowing that you will most likely mock me in the end? Nobody is paying me, I am not getting a reward, and I could be doing something else right now. Say what you will, my motive is love.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 14:50:24 GMT -5
Morluna and Valentine, You misunderstand me very greatly. I am very sorry that I offended you. I really was not attempting to. Just to let you know as was looking for those pictures I was so upset and saddened by what was happening to millions of children that I was to the point of tears. To say that I posted these in a "irreverent, flippant, and dismissive" attitude is actually the opposite of what I was doing. Well, that is good to hear. But in the future, you ought not to use such offensive photos as mere rebuttal in an argument. And really: young children can see this forum. That was not appropriate. I cannot believe that it's been allowed to stay up (and quite honestly, my opinion of the admins has just sunk even lower than previously, because they are keeping the pictures up). It kind of bugs me that I'm perceived as such an immoral, horrible person who probably shouldn't be allowed to influence small children, when I would never think of doing such a thing. You didn't need to show that to us. I'm a psychology major. I have been shown similar things in a controlled, classroom setting, for educational purposes...not on a public forum where children could stumble across it. I understand that you think abortion is horrible. SO DO I.[/i][/u]. Not all pro-choicers hate children and want to kill babies. In fact, I have never met one. Ever. This is what I think, since you asked: Abortion is not good. It's a regrettable last resort. It should be an option, but only after much deliberation, mandatory counseling, and only in the first trimester. It's not good. Sometimes it is necessary but it will NEVER be good. We aren't sadistic. We get it. We didn't need to see that here. Firstly, you're mixing us up: I said that I don't make assumptions 'cos I don't know you, Morluna posts "interesting" pictures. ;D I don't even know how to post pictures here so you couldn't be talking about me. Secondly, perhaps I did not distinguish clearly. I apologize. Your posts are offensive. You personally, I cannot say whether you are an offensive person, nor a good or bad person, nor what is going to happen to you when you die. It would be nice if I didn't get such statements thrown around about myself from people who have never met me, as well. You are forgiven. I realize now that you didn't mean it the way I thought you did. Just be more careful in the future, please. And I really would like to see those pictures removed, again because this is a public forum. Mods who have kids: would you want them to see that? I honestly don't think you are a bad person. From what I have read of you, you seem to have some rather myopic beliefs, but I am a follower of Locke and believe that everyone is basically good. Please do not fear for my soul. I don't. I would honestly tell you if I did. I am at peace with myself and am working on complete self-actualization. Believe it or not, in real life I am actually a very nice person--and, I believe, a fantastic role model. Actually, I am a fantastic role model online as well, in other places. I came to these boards for stress relief; this is not my ordinary online personna, for that express reason. Of course, I'd argue that even as a troll, I'm a rather intelligent, nice one who actually has made some fun friends here, so I consider it worthwhile. You're not gonna convince me, I'm not gonna convince you. But I knew that in coming here--I just hope that you do, because I don't want to waste your time. I enjoy myself here, which is why I stick around, but I'd hate to have anyone put needless effort into arguing with me with the motive to get me to change, when that's simply not going to happen. Anyway, yes, peace. Drop me a line on AIM sometime if you wish. I don't take kindly to having Bible versus thrown at me but other than that, I'm quite pleasant to talk to.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 15:04:39 GMT -5
The photos really put into perspective what this arguement is really over. Next week Open Air Outreach will be hooking up with Dennis Green with www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/ for open air preaching. He has a truck with pictures of murdered children on it. His motto is, if we can't tolerate to look at it maybe we shouldn't tolerate it at all. The pictures are very helpful to the arguement against the sin of abortion because it puts the arguement into perspective. It brings reality to it, that this is not merely theological or philosophical debating, this is a persons life. Murdering innocent babies should never be an "option" or a "womens right". The greatest threat to children today are their parents. With millions of babies being murdered by their parents through abortion every year, you have to ask what is keeping back the wrath of God from falling on this country? Maybe it is not held back, but we are just in denial of it when it comes.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 15:30:40 GMT -5
And this is Valentine's Respect-o-Meter for Jesse (and the driver of that truck) going down another five hundred points.
And yet again: would you want your children to see that? I know I would not want the children I coached to see it, and they're not even my own.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 15:56:07 GMT -5
Would I want children to see it? The real issue here is, do we want this done to children! It's because of love for children that we do this.
Amazing how people who would advocate a "womens right to choose" to kill her baby, or atleast see abortion as an "option" are interested and concerned about children seeing this. Why the sudden concern for children? I thought it was ok to kill them anyways through abortion.
Once again, if we can't tolerate looking at it we shouldn't tolerate it at all.
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Post by victorialewis on Apr 13, 2006 16:31:58 GMT -5
The photos really put into perspective what this arguement is really over. Next week Open Air Outreach will be hooking up with Dennis Green with www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/ for open air preaching. . does this mean you're coming home, Miles???
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 16:38:06 GMT -5
Jesse, you're avoiding the question. Again. Is that appropriate for children to see? If not, why is it in a place where they can find it? And why is it on the highway?
You know where I stand on the fetus=alive issue so I'm not even going to go there. You're just trying to incite an argument (or an "arguement"), one that I refuse to have. That's not the reason I'm upset and you know it.
For the record, I am perfectly capable of tolerating the pictures in the proper context and with every ounce of deliberation that is due, and not parading them around on the highway in such a flippant, dismissive manner. (Yes, that's what you are doing. I'm sorry, but it is.) I am concerned for sensitive/young viewers who can stumble unknowingly upon this website.
That's really not good for y'all's image.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 16:43:56 GMT -5
So long as abortion is legal, I want the whole world to see it for what it really is.
As a young child I remember seeing in school pictures of the holocaust. I also recall seeing pictures of people after the atom bomb dropped on japan.
Some things are terrible for children to see like billboards promoting adult shops or even bikini girls promoting coca cola. I'm against any sort of advertisement that tries to use sex to promote their product. I'm against the violence on TV that children are exposed to. I don't believe you should have cable in your house if you have someone in your house under the age of 18. I'm against the music videos of MTV and BET that has dancing wh*res to lyrics about sex, drugs, and violence.
However, this abortion issue is far to serious to sweep under the rug. For the sake of the children, I praise God for the pro-life truck.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 13, 2006 16:48:53 GMT -5
This might sound terrible but I would not mind if my little sisters saw this. I think it would give them a good understanding of the issue. Our society has put up nude billboards and has all kinds of perverted advertising. The kids have already seen it. I speak to a lot of kids on the streets and they are doing drugs as early as 8 and 10 years old. We live in a very different society now. The kids are taught at a very young age about sex and the "choice" of abortion. They are never taught about the reality of abortion. So, no I would not mind if my little sisters saw this. They are not sheltered from sex advertising, and they are being sent the wrong message. It is about time somebody stood up and taught them the right message. Abortion is murder.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 17:01:48 GMT -5
mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html Possible interesting reading for some. I know you're just gonna say that you don't care what others do because you are right and they are wrong, but it does bring up the interesting question: what if it happened to you? And for the record, no, I do not know what I would do. I could never say, having not been in the position--and I hope I will never be able to say. To address the posts above me: I hope you guys never have kids. I really, really do. I have nothing more to say to you on that issue.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 17:04:53 GMT -5
Valentine, because you are pro-killing-kids, I pray to God that you will never get pregnant, that is unless you change your mind on these matters.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 17:14:07 GMT -5
And for the record, no, I do not know[/i] what I would do. I could never say, having not been in the position--and I hope I will never be able to say. [/quote] You don't have to worry too much, Jesse. I am not planning on ever having biological children. I am not an incubator. If I am in this position, rest assured that it will mean something went very, very wrong and was almost certainly out of my control. Fetus=/=child. I'll thank you to not insinuate that I am pro killing children.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 17:14:32 GMT -5
No matter how you look at it abortion is still murder. It doesn't matter if a former pro-life girl ends up having an abortion, it's still murder. It doesn't matter if everyone in America thinks it's a womens right, it's still murder. It doesn't matter if the Mother would end up on welfare and would have to drop out of school, it's still murder.
As a former fetus, I am against abortion. It's a male issue as well because there are male children being murdered.
Lot's of women have been in the situation when they need to choose, and millions have choosen not to kill their children. My mother was one of them.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 17:17:41 GMT -5
As a former fetus, I am against abortion. It's a male issue as well because there are male children being murdered. Lot's of women have been in the situation when they need to choose, and millions have choosen not to kill their children. My mother was one of them. Great that that was the decision that worked best for her. Your mom is also not me, and she's not my roommate, or Alison the warmonger, or that fifth grader who got raped by her father.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 13, 2006 17:24:19 GMT -5
My name isnt Jesse, but I would like to answer this. It is funny that you dont want children to see the side of that truck but at the same time you will kill them in the womb. I thik it is apropriate to show children, that means they will learn it is murder from a young age. I teach my 6 year old sister about the martyrs in our daily bible study (that has been slacking ). But back to the point, if every one were like you, their would be no kids to see that truck. Please, be consistent with your stance and dont show any concern whatsoever for children. I have a scenario for you... What if a baby if born three months premature? can you kill it when it is out of the womb? But what if that same baby if a full term baby, can you kill it three months before it is due? In your view one is murder and the other isnt, but the baby is axactly the same, accept one is in and one is out of the womb.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 13, 2006 17:25:19 GMT -5
Please, for the sake of those that have been raped and carried their children, don't ever use rape as an excuse for abortion.
A side question...Do you support the death penalty?
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 17:40:48 GMT -5
What if a baby if born three months premature? can you kill it when it is out of the womb? But what if that same baby if a full term baby, can you kill it three months before it is due? In your view one is murder and the other isnt, but the baby is axactly the same, accept one is in and one is out of the womb. I believe in the viability rule. Life begins when the fetus could survive, by any means, if born. There are some fun court cases about that but you'll just dismiss them (or delete them for being "offensive"), so I'm not going to bother getting them for you. So, actually, in almost every single case, I would say that third-trimester abortion is an absolute no. The only exception is if birth would for-sure kill the mother and the baby. ejuliot, I'm not a death penalty fan. I think death is far too good for most criminals who would get such a sentence. Also, the fallibility of our justice system is highly suspect. Unless you can show me a way to 100% know for certain that EVERY person put to death actually committed the crime, the idea is already flawed and way not worth it. The only two concerns I have about it are: 1. I don't like the possibility that the guilty parties could commit more crimes. 2. Facilities to house these people cost money, and I don't want my tax dollars going to house rapists, murderers and child molesters.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 13, 2006 18:49:22 GMT -5
I know you don't fully support abortion. I was just thinking that it is quite ironic how many people who support abortion in any shape or form do not support the death penalty.
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Post by valentine on Apr 13, 2006 19:00:13 GMT -5
I know you don't fully support abortion. I was just thinking that it is quite ironic how many people who support abortion in any shape or form do not support the death penalty. Hoorah for the first thing we agree on! Politically speaking, I am proud to be a Libertarian. I don't totally agree with everything they say but it sums me up better than any other party. I dunno. If you could show me a way to prove that everyone given the death penalty was guilty, I might think about it. But it's not cut and dry. Nothing is for me.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 13, 2006 19:04:14 GMT -5
I know you don't fully support abortion. I was just thinking that it is quite ironic how many people who support abortion in any shape or form do not support the death penalty. Hoorah for the first thing we agree on! Politically speaking, I am proud to be a Libertarian. I don't totally agree with everything they say but it sums me up better than any other party. I dunno. If you could show me a way to prove that everyone given the death penalty was guilty, I might think about it. But it's not cut and dry. Nothing is for me. I wasn't saying that I don't support the death penalty...sorry to disappoint you. I was just pointing out the irony that people don't mind killing children but they are staunchly against killing criminal adults. Sorry to get your hopes up.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 13, 2006 21:23:24 GMT -5
The death penalty is justice. I am against abortion because it is the shedding of innocent blood. But the death penalty is the shedding of guilty blood.
The bible only permits the death penalty when there are two or three witnesses to the crime. Circumstantial evidence is not sufficient. There must be two or three witnesses.
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Post by valentine on Apr 14, 2006 10:36:31 GMT -5
Hoorah for the first thing we agree on! Politically speaking, I am proud to be a Libertarian. I don't totally agree with everything they say but it sums me up better than any other party. I dunno. If you could show me a way to prove that everyone given the death penalty was guilty, I might think about it. But it's not cut and dry. Nothing is for me. I wasn't saying that I don't support the death penalty...sorry to disappoint you. I was just pointing out the irony that people don't mind killing children but they are staunchly against killing criminal adults. Sorry to get your hopes up. Actually, I was talking about the contradiction--the fact that you find it odd/ironic that those who support abortion typically do not support the death penalty and vice versa. I find this odd as well. I had no idea what you thought about the death penalty when I read your statement. EDIT: And you know what, I think we probably agree on more than you know. I know you probably won't believe me, but I have very close friends (online and RL) of all creeds, and we manage to coexist just fine without ever coming to an argument--we can even discuss these differences and still love each other afterwards. What I try to do is focus on what we do share, the points on which we are similar, and common ground. It reminds me of what I have learned from many sources, my favorite book among them: people have good intentions, and even if you do not understand them you should try, and try to be empathetic towards how they have lived their lives. Hmmm...I like reading! Do you?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 14, 2006 11:07:57 GMT -5
BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE
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Post by valentine on Apr 14, 2006 11:24:37 GMT -5
BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE ::sigh:: Jesse, I'm trying very, very hard to find common ground with you guys, but you're making it extremely difficult. Do you want us to be at each other's throats? My favorite books are Les Miserables and The Fountainhead. I even started a thread about Les Miz in the Books section. You can go there and talk about it if you'd like.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 14, 2006 14:25:51 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that I don't support the death penalty...sorry to disappoint you. I was just pointing out the irony that people don't mind killing children but they are staunchly against killing criminal adults. Sorry to get your hopes up. Actually, I was talking about the contradiction--the fact that you find it odd/ironic that those who support abortion typically do not support the death penalty and vice versa. I find this odd as well. I had no idea what you thought about the death penalty when I read your statement. EDIT: And you know what, I think we probably agree on more than you know. I know you probably won't believe me, but I have very close friends (online and RL) of all creeds, and we manage to coexist just fine without ever coming to an argument--we can even discuss these differences and still love each other afterwards. What I try to do is focus on what we do share, the points on which we are similar, and common ground. It reminds me of what I have learned from many sources, my favorite book among them: people have good intentions, and even if you do not understand them you should try, and try to be empathetic towards how they have lived their lives. Hmmm...I like reading! Do you? I do like to read, but I have almost altogether stopped reading secular books. I do have to read some for school but I find the only book I really enjoy is my Bible or a book about the Bible. This is because God's words are life, they are like water when I am parched with thirst. I know you don't like the Bible or believe in it but to be honest it is my life. It is God's own words to mankind and I want to know God so intimately, so I spend a lot of time reading his words. You probably think that sounds corny, but it is true. I have never read Les Miserables or The Fountainhead. I might have to someday if I take an English class again. I remember seeing the movie but that was when I was in high school (I really can't remember much about it). But right now I have to read some books for Christian Doctrine and my Introduction to Leadership classes.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 14, 2006 18:34:30 GMT -5
It is a complete no, but on the other hand...It is either a compete no or it is not a complete no.
You again contradict yourself. There is always that if so that you can please everyone. Well you can never please everyone, or like Tozer said, "I choose to please no one." You say "IN almost every case" or in other words, "Prochoicers dont get mad at me!"
The fact is that any trimester abortion is murder, whether you like it or not.
Wow, if everyone believed that way the human race would be extinct. No baby can survive "by any means" when born. The mother has to feed it, clothe it, and take care of it in every way or it would die.
As Ray Comfort would say, "The hedge your hiding behind is very thin"
You need to honestly examine yourself in the light of God's holiness. One day you will face him and give an account of your life. I dont want you to end up in hell, I want Jesus to recieve the reward of his suffering, Repent and trust Jesus or you will perish in you sin.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 16:59:23 GMT -5
Jesse, if this wonderful woman is interested, let her i know popped her video down to 16000 KB's..... if she;d like to put the new one on her site (WMV format; no quality loss at all) I can give it to you to give to her... it'll save money.
I also did the same with your's, Jesse... if ya want em', lemme know; I'll hook you up with my ftp site
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 14, 2006 19:53:42 GMT -5
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