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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 8, 2006 0:24:57 GMT -5
John Locke said, "The madman reasons rightly, from the wrong presuppositions." If you start at the wrong point, you will end at the wrong point. If you have the wrong premise, you will have the wrong conclusion.
My ultimate presupposition is the Word of God. Because of that ultimate presupposition I make moral, ethical judgments.
What I am trying to understand is what exactly is your starting point? What exactly is your foundation? What exactly is your presupposition and from there I can further understand your epistomology.
How do you know what you know is really the question.
ps. I understand if you don't want to answer the questions of the last post. They are very good questions. Lots of people are afraid to question what they belief.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 8, 2006 10:07:04 GMT -5
\o/ Hey... wasn't saying you were a drunkard... Just simply IF you happen to be at the bars... I apologize.
We are glad you have decided to continue the discussions on the boards here. The reason we continue to try to address your questions and challenge you is simple; love. Can I ask you a question? Given our presuppositions and worldview, does what we do (as preachers, I mean) make any sense? That is, because we believe in hell, and we believe that certain people actually go there, to warn them and do everything we can to show them the truth.
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Post by valentine on Apr 8, 2006 10:13:54 GMT -5
Hi there, I am a close friend of Morluna's. I was very disappointed that you guys were not at the usual location when I got out of class on Friday. I was going to go say hello, but alas.
To follow in her footsteps and to introduce myself, here are some stats on Valentine:
-I am a virgin. -I have never physically held a cigarette or an alcoholic beverage of any kind. -I have never been to a "party." -I have never been convicted of any legal transgression of any kind, including speeding. -Actually, while we are on the subject, I never received a detention. I never skip class. Even when I have the flu. -I am an honors student. I have a 4.0. -I am a member of three academic service organizations. I will be the vice president of one next year.
I'm also agnostic. And I am not afraid of what will happen when I stop breathing. I would like to meet you guys, but unfortunately you will not see me at the bars, seeing as how I have never been in one and do not plan to start now. I will probably be taking care of my little sister who is visiting and writing my term paper instead.
Yep, I sure am an evil human being. Guess I deserve to burn in hell.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 10:21:13 GMT -5
Hey Valentine, you've definitely done better then I have in the past...I was a drunkard, a fornicator, a blasphemer, a coveter, and much more. Praise God He changed me! Maybe you are a good person? Why don't you find out for sure here: www.areyouagoodperson.com
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Post by valentine on Apr 8, 2006 10:23:41 GMT -5
Hey Valentine, you've definitely done better then I have in the past...I was a drunkard, a fornicator, a blasphemer, a coveter, and much more. Praise God He changed me! Maybe you are a good person? Why don't you find out for sure here: www.areyouagoodperson.comHehe, this is quite amusing. I am filling it out right now. I do have one question, though: the one about going to church regularly--is that EVER or currently? Ditto for the Bible-reading one: EVER or currently?
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 10:32:17 GMT -5
I do have one question, though: the one about going to church regularly--is that EVER or currently? Ditto for the Bible-reading one: EVER or currently? As a whole over your whole life...
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Post by valentine on Apr 8, 2006 10:39:25 GMT -5
I do have one question, though: the one about going to church regularly--is that EVER or currently? Ditto for the Bible-reading one: EVER or currently? As a whole over your whole life... Hahaha. That was cute. I'm a good person no matter what some rigged internet quiz says to me. Sorry, but I am. If god exists, and he can't see that, then he isn't very nice and I don't really want to hang out with him. On the Bible-reading/church-going: I answered yes on the first and no on the second (even though it doesn't really matter since this thing sends everyone to hell anyway--really, not a very interesting quiz). The last time I went to church regularly was when forced to at my Catholic high school, and I did not participate in the service out of protest. I have not seriously read the Bible for a year or two but I used to peruse it quite regularly, along with several other religious texts, when I was trying to decide what I believed (in "spiritual recovery" from some unpleasantness that happened to me as a teenager). And for the record, I actually haven't stolen anything in my life. As for lying, I've told one big one in my entire life that I can honestly recall--and trust me, it was better that way. I'd dispute the first commandment thing if taken literally: I don't hold any other gods before the Judeo-Christian one. I don't hold any gods at all.
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Post by Rob Dog on Apr 8, 2006 11:14:56 GMT -5
So you do admit to lying, God is so good and holy that he will judge murderers and rapists, but his goodness goes beyond that, he'll also judge all liars, all thieves, hypocrites, and the like. God is perfect, and he won't even allow your one lie to taint his holiness. You will stand guilty for God on the day of judgement. You boast of being wise, but what will it benefit you to gain the whole yet lose your soul. Please repent and trust in Christ. It's the most important desicion you'll ever make.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 8, 2006 11:31:54 GMT -5
Valentine,
If you put ANYTHING before God then it is an idol. I used to put my grades and academics before God all the time. I made my grades an idol. If you put your desires before God you make yourself your own idol. Have you ever been self-fish. You said you have never stolen. You also said you have a sister. I have three sisters and I know that it is almost inevitable that siblings will "borrow" stuff from each other without asking. That is stealing. As for lying, you have never exaggerated while telling a story?! I used to do it when I was a kid a lot! You never lied to your parents in high school or when you were really young. Or maybe when you were going to get into trouble you stretched the truth a little? You see, God is a perfectly just God. In Rev 21:8 it says that ALL Liars will have there part int he lake of fire! That means if someone lived a perfect life and lied one time they would deserve hell! That is how just our God is. An analogy that helped me was comparing it to a modern day judge (although God is infinitely more just). If I stole a dress from a clothing store and got caught that judge has to judge me. If I murdered someone that judge has to judge me. If he let's ANY crime go unpunished then he is an unjust judge and should be thrown out. God is so just and perfect (he hates sin) that he won't just judge murder and rape but he will even have you give an account of EVERY idle word you have EVER spoken(matt 12:36)! Jesus said this in Mat 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, (that is fool or idiot) shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
How many times have you called someone a name? Think about it this way...Let's say that I lied once a month. If I died when I was 80 that means that I would have lied 960 times in my lifetime and that I would deserve hell 960 times. Think about how many times you sin in a day and do the math.
You see, you said that God would be mean if he thought you were a bad person, because you are smart and have never drank alcohol etc..Isaiah 64:6 says "But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses (or good works) [are] as filthy rags (this is actually like a menstrual cloth); and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Your good works mean nothing to God, they do not outweigh your bad ones either! I don't say this because I want to condemn you. I don't want you to go to hell, but the truth is that every person on this planet deserves hell because they broke God's law. They MUST be punished or else God would be unjust. I Know that you went to Catholic school and that you know that Jesus died, but he was actually taking your punishment! That one big lie you told that is sending you to hell, he took the punishment for that on the cross! Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." I know that you know that after three days Christ rose from the dead. This is SO important because Christ defeated death!Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." If you do not repent (turn from your sin) and put your faith in Jesus Christ who DIED for you then you will die because of your sins and suffer in the second death which is hell. I do not want that to happen, I will be praying that God will draw you to him.
Liz
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Post by valentine on Apr 8, 2006 12:36:24 GMT -5
Alright. Hi, ejuliot. I think I can eliminate most of your argument by this simple statement: maybe you did not see this in my previous post, but I am agnostic. This means, for the uninitiated, that I do not believe the existence of god(s) can be determined. Therefore, arguments which assume that the Judeo-Christian god A. exists and B. is someone I should be concerned with are really not going to convince me of anything. I used to put my grades and academics before God all the time. I made my grades an idol. If you put your desires before God you make yourself your own idol. Have you ever been self-fish. Judging by your stellar spelling skills, I'd say that you've done a fair job of repenting from the sin of academia. Congratulations! For the record, in reference to the lying/stealing: I personally consider this a problem when it's done intentionally to harm another. Exaggerating a story as a child is not lying, to me--kids don't do that to hurt others. They do it because they're so firmly grounded in fantasy; it's just how their minds work at that stage (I could discuss this further but as I suspect that you will not listen, I'll refrain). That's my view, anyway. And you can think that I've done these things all you wish: since you do not know me, I definitely see how you'd have the proper knowledge base to do that! Please don't worry that your words will hurt me, because I'll simply disregard them and go on thinking that I am awesome. PS: No, actually, I didn't lie to my parents in high school. I had no reason to. I never broke their rules. I didn't even have a curfew because they didn't have to give me one. And herein lies the problem. I do not believe that your Bible is true. I have read it many times and have reached this conclusion based on my personal experiences, morality and deduction. I wholeheartedly believe that this religion is very true for some, but it is not true for me. Please recognize that Biblical quotations are quite ineffective in convincing me of your points. Having read it myself, I know exactly what is printed there, and do not care. This would be like me quoting Les Miserables and The Fountainhead to you in order to prove why I think you are mistaken. The Bible is a fictional story to me. I will not use it to live my life. Your good works mean nothing to God, they do not outweigh your bad ones either! Wow. That's a very vindictive god. His Bible means nothing to me. How's that for a compromise? If you do not repent (turn from your sin) and put your faith in Jesus Christ who DIED for you then you will die because of your sins and suffer in the second death which is hell. I do not want that to happen, I will be praying that God will draw you to him. That won't be necessary. I'm not concerned about what happens when I stop breathing, beyond the general stopping-of-the-breathing part because I love this life so much...and the thought of it ending makes me very, very sad. I'll elaborate on this if you're interested but I will not bother if I'm just going to get some more quotations thrown at me from a book that I believe to be fiction. Nice guy, that Jesus. I wish that more of his fans would be like him. Rob Dog: Thank you for your concern, but I believe that my soul is just fine. I live every day in such a way so that if it were my last, I would be at peace with what I have done and would have no regrets. And if some god who may or may not exist isn't happy with the way I lived my life...then I will tell you what I will say to him: "Look, I did the best I could with what you gave me. I'm very sorry if that wasn't good enough for you, but it was good enough for me. I have no regrets. I apologize for disappointing you but I do not apologize for myself."
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 13:03:18 GMT -5
I think these two sentences sum up everything I need to say. Way to go Valentine. \o/ Hey... wasn't saying you were a drunkard... Just simply IF you happen to be at the bars... I apologize. We are glad you have decided to continue the discussions on the boards here. The reason we continue to try to address your questions and challenge you is simple; love. Can I ask you a question? Given our presuppositions and worldview, does what we do (as preachers, I mean) make any sense? That is, because we believe in hell, and we believe that certain people actually go there, to warn them and do everything we can to show them the truth. Sorry, that's just how it sounded to me. I have prior experience with Christians judging me immediately and thinking I am some riotus immoral person because I don't follow their same doctrine. It really angers and insults me. If you weren't trying to insinuate that, great. Sorry I jumped to conclusions. As to your question, I do agree that based on your interpretation of the Bible, what you are doing makes sense. I interpret the teachings of Jesus very differently, and unlike you, I do not believe that everything written in your Bible is infallible. I believe this because, like it or not, the texts were written, PHYSICALLY written, by MEN. You can believe that God inspired the writings, and in fact I also believe this. BUT, the fundamental difference between our beliefs is that I also believe the men in question may have, through the imperfections of man, left parts out or added parts at their choosing. In addition, we know that the texts in the Bible have been translated and revised many MANY times by many different parties. Therefore, I choose to weigh any belief in my own heart and conscience before accepting it. I am guided by the Creator spirit as well as the words and teachings of fellow men who have gone before me. But yes, I do agree that, based on your beliefs and doctrines, what you are doing is right for you. I believe you have the right to express those beliefs. I also believe that I have the right to speak out and express my beliefs in your presence, and I do not have to be silent and simply allow you to speak words of hate and intolerance on our campus. That is why I came out yesterday. I do not expect to change your beliefs any more than I expect you to change mine. I simply wanted to support my fellow students and members of the community who were being condemned by your teachings. Unlike many in the crowd yesterday, I was not simply trying to run you guys off. It's a public street and you had the right to be there and say the things you said. But I too, had the right to stand right beside you and argue against what you were saying. Simple freedom of speech right there, and I respect you for upholding your 1st amendment rights to do so.
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