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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 17, 2007 12:25:18 GMT -5
The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained." Martin Luther Why should anyone take the time and effort to learn New Testament Greek? There are dozens of widely accepted English translations for us to use, and a plethora of commentaries on every part of Scripture. So why take time to learn Greek? If we stop to think about it, the very number of translations indicates the answer to our question. If we compare translations, we quickly understand the problem. There are so many translations because there is no such thing as THE "correct" or "inspired" translation of any given passage. One language cannot begin to render an exact and final translation into another language, because every word and idiom has an area of meaning and the area of meaning in one language only partial and approximately represents the area of meaning in another language. Learning New Testament Greek affords an opportunity never realized in any English translation. Erasmus wrote in the Preface to his Greek Testament, "These holy pages will summon up the living image of His mind. They will give you Christ Himself, talking, healing, dying, rising, the whole Christ in a Word. They will give Him to you in an intimacy so close that He would be less visible to you if He stood before your eyes." Many are discovering that the God who spoke through Erasmus' Greek New Testament still speaks to sensitive hearts today. Reading the original text is no mere recital of past events. Rather, it is a means to bring us in touch with the power of the text and applying its truths to our lives. To the degree a translation of the Scriptures mirrors the original text, is the quantifiable reflection of the translation’s belief in verbal inspiration. If a translation substitutes a noun for the original author’s verb, an “a” for a “the”, replaces a subjunctive with an indicative, a past tense for a present, and so forth, then at best, the work has been seriously compromised, and at worst, the importance of verbal inspiration has been denied to the reader. True, verbal inspiration extends only to the original wording and sentence order of Scripture, thus excluding all translations ever made, no matter how widely accepted, revered, or good. However, if a translation has as it philosophical basis not to add or omit anything from the original, then verbal inspiration for the most part is preserved. To the measure it drifts from this matrix, is the measure verbal inspiration is lost. Instead of translating, many translations “interpret” the author’s "real" intent, as if they knew better what should, ought, might have been written, rather than what they actually wrote. They legitimize their alteration of the original word(s) on the premise that the reader is actually aided by such help! When a translation succumbs to this subjective approach, no matter how slight, verbal inspiration diminishes proportionally, and it is as much disregarded as if it had no value. A viable alternative to translations are literal translations. Whereas literal translations of the Bible are on the increase, they will never enjoy popular reading, because of their necessary “wooden” renderings of the original wording and syntax. However, it must be noted, their principal aim is not for ease of reading, but a fervent desire to reflect accurately the original. However, in the final analysis, whether we choose to study God's Word from a translation, literal or not, the Scriptures were communicated in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; all else is translation. A. T. Robertson, a distinguished Greek scholar, wrote in his Preface to the third edition of A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, “The Greek New Testament is the New Testament. All else is translation. Jesus speaks to us out of every page of the Greek. To get these words of Jesus it is worthwhile to plow through any grammar and to keep on to the end.” The study of the original languages may be viewed as the proper understanding of the biblical doctrine of inspiration. If we do indeed believe that every word in the original autograph was inspired by God the Holy Spirit, then should we not be diligently studying His message to us in its original form? Those who do not know the languages will come short of grappling with the original form of God's revelation. His revelation came in and through the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. It is our responsibility to receive that revelation, to understand it and effectively communicate it to others. If we have no knowledge of the original languages, then we are halted from exploring the fullness of God's revelation and plumb its depths for ourselves. Consider for a moment the alternative. Those who do not know the original languages are forced to borrow their ideas from others. They are slaves to the commentators and Bible teachers (who probably are not proficient in the original languages), and have no means to check their accuracy. Worst of all, without thorough training in biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, they will never realize they may be passing on in the name of God their own ignorance, based upon an erroneous translation. It has been said more than once, "It is not important to know the biblical languages to correctly interpret God's Word." Of course, this possibly could carry weight if it was stated by someone who knows them, rather than from a posture of ignorance. Martin Luther, in the year of 1524 wrote, "In the measure that we love the Gospel, let us place a strong emphasis on the languages. For it was not without reason that God wrote the Scriptures in two [primary] languages, the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. Those languages which God did not despise, but rather chose above all others for His Word, are the languages which we also should honor above all others. It is a sin and a shame that we do not learn the languages of our Book." And again, "The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained." If by learning the original languages we are able to extract truth from God's Word that was previously indiscernible from a translation, then we shall succeed in our goal; not because of what was translated, but because of what has been revealed from God! If the Bible is the Word of God, and the doctrine of biblical inspiration is what it is, then a thorough knowledge of biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek is not a luxury, but indispensable. It has been over thirty-one years since I responded to the question why it is important to study New Testament Greek. I began to understand that it was only out of a sense of personal devotion to Christ and a commitment to spiritual renewal in His Church that studying New Testament Greek made any sense. Whatever knowledge of Greek one obtains will be of real value. However, to complete this course, if it is to be more than superficial, entails three things: study, study and more study. There is no other way. The study of the language of the New Testament takes time and anything else is a delusion. It is my recommendation that you spend a half an hour a day, five days a week. My personal pursuit of both biblical Hebrew and Greek has been based on the time proven axiom, "Something is better than nothing". Before long you will be able to read the Greek text for yourself, without the running interference of a translation. It is my sincere prayer that you begin learning New Testament Greek. Greek is within the reach of anyone who desires to learn. The goal of this course is to glorify the One true God, Jesus Christ, to be effective communicators of His original Word and servants to His Body, the Church. Dr. William D. Ramey, instructor NTGreek In Session (This is from the intro to his course)
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 17, 2007 12:38:25 GMT -5
"Though weak, I often spent two hours in my evening retirements and prayed over my Greek Testament, and Bishop Hall's most excellent Contemplations, every hour that my health would permit" (Dallimore, Whitefield, I, p. 77).
- George Whitefield at his time at Oxford
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 12:50:31 GMT -5
Here is another quote: First, I have heard others ask, "Do I have to know Greek to be saved?" The answer is, "No, you don't have to know Greek to be saved -- but somebody does!" That's right! Somebody has to know Greek; somebody has to know Hebrew and Aramaic too! Why? Because those are the languages in which the Bible was originally written. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. The Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew, but a section of the book of Daniel was written in Aramaic. So in order for us, who speak English, (or some other modern day language) to understand the Bible, someone, somewhere has to translate it from Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, into English. Without them doing that, then we couldn't know the message, unless, of course, we studied those languages and learned them ourselves. Source
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 13:09:38 GMT -5
Here is another quote: First, I have heard others ask, "Do I have to know Greek to be saved?" The answer is, "No, you don't have to know Greek to be saved -- but somebody does!" That's right! Somebody has to know Greek; somebody has to know Hebrew and Aramaic too! Why? Because those are the languages in which the Bible was originally written. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. The Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew, but a section of the book of Daniel was written in Aramaic. So in order for us, who speak English, (or some other modern day language) to understand the Bible, someone, somewhere has to translate it from Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, into English. Without them doing that, then we couldn't know the message, unless, of course, we studied those languages and learned them ourselves. Source Are they saying you cannot know the bible without learning the Greek? Yes, the translators needed to know the Greek but why us?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 13:26:35 GMT -5
Why do the translators need to know Greek? If you know the answer to that you can answer the first question. A translator needs to know Greek so he can convey the message in another tongue to the best of his ability. Shouldn't we want to convey the message of the NT to the best of our ability?
A translation is never going to be perfect. Basically what they are saying is that you can't know with precision what Jesus or the Apostles said unless someone knows Greek- whether you or someone. That is unless the Holy Spirit reveals to you directly, although many times He uses the Bible.
If you have ever looked up a Greek word in Strong's or somewhere you can see the benefit of knowing Greek.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 13:30:53 GMT -5
Here is a short article/post I once made on here about Greek dictionaries:
First off, I'm no scholar or anything of the sort. I'll just share a few things I know. Since some seem to be getting into "studying the Greek," this might be helpful.
Words are very important, but how often do we think about what a "word" is or does? Words are more than just a common string of sounds. Words convey ideas and thoughts to another person. It's amazing to think about how a noise coming out of someones mouth could be received to actually be intelligible. Amazing! One thing we need to realize is that when we acquired our native tongue, we didn't do that by studying a dictionary. Of course not! We couldn't have even read it! Truly, words don't have definitions but histories of meanings. A word is used in a common manner so we slap upon it a string of words and call it a definition, but really this isn't how you know what the word means. To be able to understand a word you have to have a history with that word. Again I stress that words aren't really learned, but acquired through a history of usage either in hearing, reading, or speaking. You can "learn" a word, but just being able to add a string of words together about that word, doesn't necessary mean you understand it's meaning.
What was the point of that first paragraph, you might ask? I say that because in translating from another language you don't just match up words. It's more than that. It can be commonly thought of when looking at a "Greek definition" that a particular word can mean X amount of things. Well, that may or may not be true. Translating a word or phrase is not like pulling a word out of a bucket and hoping it's the right one. Neither is it like having a list of words that it "can mean" and matching it with the one "you want." It may look like that if you were to just look at a dictionary, but it's just not so. Again, words don't merely have definitions, but convey a certain meaning.
A huge problem can arise when "looking at Greek" if you think that a word can always mean X amount of things into English. Here is the thrust of this whole post: For you to truly translate a word from Greek into English, you have to understand it in Greek before you can translate it into English. It is detrimental that you be able to understand it in Greek because you must acquire the meaning of the word. After you have acquired the meaning of the word in Greek, then you can put your mind to work by thinking of the words/phrases that convey the same meaning into English.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 13:45:39 GMT -5
Basically what they are saying is that you can't know with precision what Jesus or the Apostles said unless someone knows Greek- whether you or someone. That is unless the Holy Spirit reveals to you directly, although many times He uses the Bible. If you have ever looked up a Greek word in Strong's or somewhere you can see the benefit of knowing Greek. I'm not at all saying that it cannot be beneficial but it can have the opposite effect and become a hindrance. Just like healthy people in the grocery store who use wheelchairs because they are too lazy to walk than they gain weight, become weak, lose bone density and end up crippling themselves. It can prevent you from excercising your senses and your reliance upon the holy spirit. But if your careful and keep that in mind I have no problem with it. Some people do get it in their head they cannot learn the bible unless they know Greek. Not to mention it's time consuming.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 14:05:03 GMT -5
I understand your point. That illustration nearly fits better on the other side of the argument. Those who use the wheelchair of translations rather than getting to work and learning. I think this mainly applies to those who only know a little bit of Greek and think they know everything. I've seen so many people try to take a Greek word and stretch it to peices trying to make a word say something it doesn't. People shouldn't think more highly of themselves than they ought. We need to know what we know and not think we know anything beyond that. Again, I know what your main point is. Knowledge without God's Spirit will only turn you into an egg-head. You will look nice on the outside but when push comes to shove you crack and don't have much to offer.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 14:08:20 GMT -5
I understand your point. That illustration nearly fits better on the other side of the argument. Those who use the wheelchair of translations rather than getting to work and learning. I think this mainly applies to those who only know a little bit of Greek and think they know everything. I've seen so many people try to take a Greek word and stretch it to peices trying to make a word say something it doesn't. People shouldn't think more highly of themselves than they ought. We need to know what we know and not think we know anything beyond that. Again, I know what your main point is. Knowledge without God's Spirit will only turn you into an egg-head. You will look nice on the outside but when push comes to shove you crack and don't have much to offer. Not only that but your still translating a translation.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 14:09:13 GMT -5
What do you mean?
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 14:14:20 GMT -5
God will always be the final authority. You have to have the Rhema word for every occasion. Learning Greek will not help you in this regard.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 25, 2008 14:35:40 GMT -5
But the Rhema word is not the ultimate authority, the Word of God is the Ultimate authority.
I'm not saying that this is what you are saying I just thought that I should put it out there.
In Christ Matt
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 14:39:00 GMT -5
But the Rhema word is not the ultimate authority, the Word of God is the Ultimate authority. I'm not saying that this is what you are saying I just thought that I should put it out there. In Christ Matt The Rhema word is the word of God spoken in due season basically. Proverbs 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 14:47:15 GMT -5
I like that illustration of the egg-head.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 15:08:19 GMT -5
The Rhema word is like the word we need at that moment. Have you often heard of people who go to a church service and out of the whole sermon they will hear just that one word that they needed to hear? That is what I mean by a Rhema word. It may not be a Rhema word for anyone else but it is for you. I have heard pastors preach a whole sermon and it ends up being primarily for that one person. God is good! It happens to me alot and I'm sure it has happened to you. If it has not it will.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 25, 2008 15:41:59 GMT -5
The Rhema word is like the word we need at that moment. Have you often heard of people who go to a church service and out of the whole sermon they will hear just that one word that they needed to hear? That is what I mean by a Rhema word. It may not be a Rhema word for anyone else but it is for you. I have heard pastors preach a whole sermon and it ends up being primarily for that one person. God is good! It happens to me alot and I'm sure it has happened to you. If it has not it will. I agree this has happened to me many times. I was just making a distinction since the topic is about the importance of studying Greek and that the written Word of God is superior to the Rhema word. Like Josh stated "The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained." In Christ Matt
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 16:12:53 GMT -5
The Rhema word is like the word we need at that moment. Have you often heard of people who go to a church service and out of the whole sermon they will hear just that one word that they needed to hear? That is what I mean by a Rhema word. It may not be a Rhema word for anyone else but it is for you. I have heard pastors preach a whole sermon and it ends up being primarily for that one person. God is good! It happens to me alot and I'm sure it has happened to you. If it has not it will. I agree this has happened to me many times. I was just making a distinction since the topic is about the importance of studying Greek and that the written Word of God is superior to the Rhema word. Like Josh stated "The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained." In Christ Matt Superior in what sense? That it is the foundation upon which we base our beliefs on? I would agree with that. The Rhema word (if it is a true Rhema word) will only support what the scriptures have already said. I'm sure that is probably what you mean.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 25, 2008 16:16:32 GMT -5
Yeah that's what I mean.
In Christ Matt
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 25, 2008 16:37:17 GMT -5
That may be so but learning Greek will teach you what the word rhema means.
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 17:53:48 GMT -5
That may be so but learning Greek will teach you what the word rhema means. You got me there, Josh!
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Post by rebecca on Feb 25, 2008 18:36:33 GMT -5
Two things stood out in my mind when I studied some Greek awhile back. One of the words used for a christian was "the out-called" and the word used for the world was "system". I found that interesting. I especially like the word "outcalled" to describe a christian. Have you ever heard of that, Josh? I read it out of a Greek new testament once. It's been so long though, I hope I have my facts straight.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 26, 2008 11:34:28 GMT -5
Well, I guess you left but I'll answer your question anyways. Yeah, the word for church comes from the verb that means "to call" with the preposition that means "out of" tacked on it. "ekklesia" There are a few words translated in the KJV as world, but I think the one you are referring to is "kosmos." Many times that word refers to either the people on earth or the system the people have created. The word for the physical land of the earth is another Greek word. This isn't always the case, but I'm speaking in a general sense. Words are sometimes used interchangeably. Just like in English we really need to see the context to know what the word means. You can scroll down to the bottom of the page here to see how that word is used in the NT.
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Post by Steve Noel on Feb 27, 2008 12:30:56 GMT -5
Hey Josh,
My Pastor is teaching a few of us Greek. We are working through Mounce's textbook and workbook. We are on chapter 11 this week. I just purchased the UBS4 Greek New Testament. I'm anxious to be able to read it devotionally.
Steve
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Post by Josh Parsley on Feb 27, 2008 12:45:23 GMT -5
Hey Josh, My Pastor is teaching a few of us Greek. We are working through Mounce's textbook and workbook. We are on chapter 11 this week. I just purchased the UBS4 Greek New Testament. I'm anxious to be able to read it devotionally. Steve That is awesome. I think that is the ideal situation. Did you know that UBS puts out a readers edition? I just bought it last week. I have the UBS4 also. The readers edition uses the same text but at the bottom of the page it has words that are difficult to parse explained and a running dictionary of words used less than 30 times. Here is a good review of it: click here
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Post by Steve Noel on Feb 27, 2008 13:05:12 GMT -5
Our Assistant Pastor is taking the class as well. He just purchased the readers edition too.
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Post by rebecca on Mar 3, 2008 19:44:31 GMT -5
Yeah, the word for church comes from the verb that means "to call" with the preposition that means "out of" tacked on it. "ekklesia" There are a few words translated in the KJV as world, but I think the one you are referring to is "kosmos." Many times that word refers to either the people on earth or the system the people have created. The word for the physical land of the earth is another Greek word. This isn't always the case, but I'm speaking in a general sense. Words are sometimes used interchangeably. Just like in English we really need to see the context to know what the word means. You can scroll down to the bottom of the page here to see how that word is used in the NT. Thanks, I'll have to find out which Greek version that was. It was in English with the definition of the words already written in the bible. I've been looking all over the internet for it but can't find it.
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