djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Dec 29, 2007 14:49:53 GMT -5
LEAD US NOT INTO DECEPTION A Biblical Examination of Moral Government Theology Alan Gomes (Professor and Chair – Department of Theology . Talbot School of Theology people.biola.edu/faculty/alang/Resource/YWAM.pdfCheck this short book out – It is available online in PDF format. It deals with Moral Government Theology and was written several years ago by Alan Gomes. Mr. Gomes is now currently a professor and the Chairman of the Department of Theology at Talbot School of Theology – a well known and respected evangelical seminary. The book is pretty easy to read and gives a good overview of the Moral Government Theology errors. Maybe we can arrange a debate between Mr. Gomes and Jesse ;D
|
|
|
Post by danlirette on Dec 29, 2007 15:01:21 GMT -5
I would encourage anyone looking to download thsi to refrain from doing so as the copyright on it states clearly that the book cannot be reproduced or stored in any form without the written consent of the author.
Until you, djpary, can produce a copy of this written consent from Mr. Alan Gomes, no one should download thsi and you shouldn't post it as doing so is clearly sinful.
Copyright theft is immoral.
|
|
djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
|
Post by djpray on Dec 29, 2007 15:17:08 GMT -5
Links to Some of My Publications
Some of my writings are available in electronic form on the WorldWideWeb. I have provided the links below:
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell (in Adobe .PDF format)
The Worldwide Church of God: Acknowledging the 'Plain Truth' About the Trinity? (Christian Research Journal)
Lead Us Not Into Deception: A Biblical Examination of the Moral Government Theology [found at Youth With a Mission (YWAM) and elsewhere] (in Adobe .PDF format)
** Those are Mr. Gomes' word himself on his website. He is obviously giving permission to read his materials by posting his writings in electronic format on the internet. And anybody can click the link provided and open it up. You don't necessarily have to store that on your computer. But at the same time, I will try to go ahead and contact Mr. Gomes and ask him to make this clearer on his site. I also make note (as with anything written by others), I don't necessarily agree with every single thing that Mr. Gomes wrote. Yet I am sure that his writing will be good "food for thought" for those that read it, just like some of Jesse's writings and others writings also make one think and are "food for thought."
|
|
|
Post by danlirette on Dec 29, 2007 15:29:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, djpray I was stating my view only going by the PDF copyright notice when I opened it Dan
|
|
|
Post by sean on Dec 29, 2007 15:38:30 GMT -5
Been skimming over it. Looks good. His section called "Moral Government Salvation is by Works" is the Gospel Jesse preaches...which is really no gospel at all. He also does a good explanation dealing with the scripture of David being conceived in sin. There is also a chart at the end called "Moral Government Theology compared to the Word of God". I read through some of it. It's utterly amazing how far off moral government theology is from the Scriptures.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 14:41:09 GMT -5
1. Preaching repentance (turning from sin) as a condition of salvation is not preaching salvation by works. Salvation by works says that you can earn or merit salvation. But salvation that is conditional upon faith and repentance is not salvation by works. Repentance and faith doesn't earn or merit salvation. Repentance and faith are simply the conditions of salvation.
2. It would seem that Alan is a Calvinist. I would be cautious of reading any Calvinist writings as it might lead you into deception. Apparently he teaches Augustine's doctrine of original sin and uses the same old false interpretation of scriptures to teach it. He repeatedly appeals to Romans 5 as though Augustine's interpretation is a valid one. I would love to be able to give him a copy of my Commentary on Romans 5.
And we should be EXTREMELY cautious of reading anyone who denies that repentance (turning from sin) is a condition of salvation.
3. I reviewed his book enough to see that it is full of misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and false interpretation of scripture.
Misunderstanding and misrepresentation: he actually said that moral government theology denies that we are born with a bias toward sin! This is not true. M.G. theology teaches that we inherit physical depravity that gives us a bias, inclination, or internal temptation towards sin. But also that physical depravity is temptation, not sin. Moral depravity is the wills voluntary submission. So to teach that MG theology denies that we are born with a bias towards sin is simply not true.
A false interpretation of scripture: His objections to freewill for example are based upon his false interpretation of scripture. He uses scriptures that say we cannot be saved by the law to prove that we don't have a freewill. This is a fallacy. Saying that we cannot be saved by keeping the law does not prove that we are not capable of obeying God. All those scriptures teach is that obeying God does not earn or merit salvation, and obey God does not atone for our sins. But we have a freewill and are capable of obeying God.
And as I mentioned early, he interpretations Romans 5 incorrectly.
4. For those reasons, I would not recommend this book to anyone who actually wants to know what Moral Government Theology actually teaches. This book is not a good representation of Moral Government Theology nor a good interpretion of the bible. It sounds like it's just the same old Calvinism.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 15:37:57 GMT -5
But Jesse did you not say that it was possible for a man to obey the law and die and go to Heaven. But that it was just not probable?
Edit: Perhaps that is not MG just your opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 15:42:02 GMT -5
I would say that it is possible for us to never sin. The reason we deserve hell for sinning is because we never have to sin.
So it was possible for Adam and Eve not to sin and it was possible for us not to sin. But all of us have chosen to sin of our own freewill. And therefore we all rightly deserve hell.
So while it is possible for us to live entirely without sin, none of us have ever done it. We have all chosen to become sinners. And since we have chosen to become sinners we all need a Savior, since it is only the sick that need a Doctor. If we have never sinned, Jesus wouldn't have needed to atone for sins. But Jesus needed to atone for sin because we have all chosen to sin, we have all chosen to become sinners.
But just because we have a freewill and never have to sin doesn't mean that we can be saved by the law. Only sinners (those who choose to sin) need to be saved. And their present obedience can never atone for any past disobedience, only blood shed can.
If we had never chosen to sin we wouldn't need to be saved, that is, if we had never chosen to broke the law we wouldn't need to be saved. The reason we need to be saved is because we have chosen to sin. But we cannot be saved by the law. No sinner can be saved by the law. We can only be saved by God's grace, upon condition of blood shed, repentance, and faith.
--------------------------
- Sin is a selfish motive of the will (Matt 23:5), a state of the inner heart (Matt 5:28, Matt 15:18:19), which manifests itself into outward action and conduct. (Matt 12:33, Matt 12:35)
- This inward sin, the inward motive of the heart, is completely voluntary. (Job 11:14, Matt 23:26, Romans 6:12)
- Sin is always voluntary, optional, and avoidable. (Gen 4:6-7, Eze 3:19, Eze 33:19, Jer 18:8, 1Corinthians 10:13)
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 15:47:19 GMT -5
So was your heart wicked from birth or were you born with the same pure heart that is required for entrance into Heaven?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 15:54:27 GMT -5
Alan, can you define the word "heart". And can you define a "wicked heart" and can you define a "good heart" or a "pure heart"??
----------------------
Your heart is your intention, it is your will and mind. A person has a wicked heart if the intention of their will is on sin, or if they set their mind to do wickedly. And a person has a good heart if the intention of their will is to love, if they set their mind to be loving. A pure heart is a pure intention. A man with a "perfect heart" is a man with a loving intention.
So your not born with a good heart or a bad heart. The moral condition of your heart is an entirely voluntary state. If it is a moral quality it must be voluntary. We are born with the ability to have a good heart or a wicked heart, it is our choice to be good or evil. Our will/mind (heart) is what we determine it to be, otherwise it could not truly be ours. If it is our heart, it must be voluntary, and we must have made it that way. We ourselves, through our own freewill, determine what our intention (heart) is, we ourselves determine how we will use our will or what we will choose with our mind.
But we are born with a fallen body that inclines us, biases us, or tempts us to sin. And sin is when our heart voluntary submits to the lusts of the flesh. We become sinners the first time that we choose to sin, we become sinners when our heart yields to the lusts of the flesh.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 16:03:34 GMT -5
Alan, can you define the word "heart". And can you define a "wicked heart" and can you define a "good heart" or a "pure heart"?? ---------------------- Your heart is your intention, it is your will and mind. A person has a wicked heart if the intention of their will is on sin, or if they set their mind to do wickedly. And a person has a good heart if the intention of their will is to love, if they set their mind to be loving. A pure heart is a pure intention. A man with a "perfect heart" is a man with a loving intention. So your not born with a good heart or a bad heart. The moral condition of your heart is an entirely voluntary state. If it is a moral quality it must be voluntary. We are born with the ability to have a good heart or a wicked heart, it is our choice to be good or evil. Our will/mind (heart) is what we determine it to be, otherwise it could not truly be ours. If it is our heart, it must be voluntary, and we must have made it that way. We ourselves, through our own freewill, determine what our intention (heart) is, we ourselves determine how we will use our will or what we will choose with our mind. This seems very contrary to scripture. Mans hear is desperately wicked. Then at rebirth he is given a new heart. In Romans we are told to be transformed by the renewing of our mind not our heart.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 16:11:22 GMT -5
Alan,
Yes the bible everywhere says that mens hearts ARE wicked! But their hearts are wicked by CHOICE not by BIRTH. There are many scriptures that say that the heart of man is wicked. But not a single scripture that says the condition of your heart is hereditary, or that you inherit a wicked heart from Adam.
And we must be born again, that is, we must "obey the gospel" "from the heart"! A wicked heart is when a persons will determined to sin. A new heart is when the Spirit so influences that person that their will becomes determined to obey God.
But the bible blames them for their wicked hearts! Remember Jesus said that we must first clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean also.
Men DESERVE HELL for their wicked hearts, because their hearts are VOLUNTARILY WICKED!!!! Again, your heart is your motive, intention, aim, or purpose. And we ourselves determine our motive, our intention, our aim, and our purpose.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 16:16:17 GMT -5
This is a post I made on another thread:
Genesis 8:21 says that a man's heart is evil from his youth, not from his birth. And it says nothing about Adam. At a very young age children choose to sin - Ps 58:3
Jeremiah 17:9 simply states that a man's heart is wicked, it doesn't explain how a man's heart becomes wicked. And it too says nothing about Adam.
Matt 15:19 clearly shows how the will determines the actions, the heart determines the conduct. See also Matt 12:35, Luke 6:45
A man's will determines a man's conduct, and the man himself determines his own will. A man's heart is his will, motive, or intention. (Adultery of the heart is having an adulterous motive or intention, when a person wills it in their heart)
The condition, intention, or attitude of a persons heart is entirely voluntary:
1Ki 8:61 "LET YOUR HEART therefore be perfect with the Lord our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments,"
Zec 7:10 "LET none of you image evil against his brother in your heart."
Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed and MAKE YOU A NEW HEART and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Israel?
"I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end." Ps 119:112
A persons heart is either loving or selfish. Love and selfishness are both voluntary states, conditions, or attitude of the heart. A person chooses to have a loving intention or a selfish intention, and therefore chooses to have either a holy heart or a wicked heart.
If having a wicked heart is itself a sin, and we are obligated not to have a wicked heart, and sinners will be punished with hellfire for having a wicked heart, then a wicked heart is a voluntary choice which they did not have to choose, we have the ability not to have it.
IN SUMMARY:
1. A man determines his heart (will): 1Ki 8:61; Zec 7:10; Eze 18:31; Ps 119:112
2. His heart (will) determines his conduct: Matt 12:35, Matt 15:19, Luke 6:45
When we are born we haven't made any choices yet. We have a freewill but we haven't used it yet. Once we have knowledge, and choose to use our freewill, we are creating our will, creating our heart, creating our moral character.
Intention, heart, character are not abstract things that can be given to you by someone else, they are voluntary states or attitudes that we ourselves develop and determine. We choose our intention, our heart, our character. That is, we choose to be either loving or selfish, holy or unholy.
We have all made the wrong choices and we need the influence of the Holy Spirit to make the right choices, to have a right heart, etc. Without the intervention of the Holy Spirit, to give enlightenment and illumination, to convict us and instruct us, to lead us and direct us, sinners would continue to choose nothing but sin, they would continue to choose to have a wicked heart.
We need God to make for us a new heart, that is, we need God to so influence us that we will forsake our sins and come to Jesus Christ. We need to yield to the influence of God so that we choose to be loving instead of selfish, choose to be holy instead of evil.
God influences man - man determines his will - will determines conduct.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 16:24:08 GMT -5
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
qevlw apparently strengthened from the alternate form of (138) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Thelo 3:44,318 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech thel'-o Verb Definition to will, have in mind, intend to be resolved or determined, to purpose to desire, to wish to love to like to do a thing, be fond of doing to take delight in, have pleasure
Pauls will or determination was not enough was it. He cried out to be saved.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 16:25:39 GMT -5
Consider this:
1. We deserve hell for having wicked hearts. Do we choose to have wicked hearts or not? If not, then do we deserve hell for something we didn't do??
2. The bible says that your heart determines your conduct. But if the man does not determine his heart, then the man is a mere machine who is controlled or necessitated by his heart. But if a man determines his heart, and the heart determines the conduct, then man is not a machine but a free moral agent who is rightly responsible for his character and conduct.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 16:29:56 GMT -5
Paul did not deny his ability to will. He said, "what I will". So Paul affirmed the freedom of the will.
The problem was that he was willing the wrong means. He wanted to be saved by the law, but the law cannot save. Obedience cannot atone for our sins, obedience cannot make sinners right with God.
So Paul affirmed the freedom of the will, and Paul even said that as an unconverted sinner he was blameless concerning the law, so Paul said that his will was free and that he could obey God.
But Paul realized that his obedience was not enough. His own efforts could not make him right with God. So he cried out for someone else to save him - Jesus Christ.
But let it be clearly understood:
- Paul affirmed the freedom of the will "For what I will"
- Paul affirmed his ability to obey God "concerning the law, blameless"
- But Paul affirmed that freedom to obey was not enough to earn or merit salvation, it was not enough to atone for sins. "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
- So instead of using his freewill to seek justification by self-righteousness, Paul used his freewill to "obey the gospel" for Paul said "I was not disobedient to the Heavenly Vision".
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 16:45:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 16:56:26 GMT -5
Saul, trying to save himself by keeping the law, was not at all obeying God. He was selfishly trying to save himself.
Nothing short of living to glorify God is obedience to God. Nothing but loving God with everything, and loving our neighbor equally, is REAL obedience to God. But selfishly trying to save yourself by obeying the law is NOT obeying God. God never wanted us to selfishly obey the law to be saved, and so Saul NEVER truly obeyed God.
Paul had a freewill. But he was using it selfishly to try to self-righteously save himself. Just like the other Pharisees obeyed God (so called) but only to be seen of men! Their intention was entirely selfish! So they were "full of iniquity". Our righteousness must exceed their false righteousness Jesus said!
Saul NEVER REALLY obeyed God until he fell in love with Jesus Christ and started to obey out of love. Nothing but love is a virtuous motive - 1Cor 13. It wasn't until Paul loved God because God first loved him that he REALLY obeyed God.
True obedience will be marked by obeying the gospel (turning from sin and trusting in Jesus). False obedience will be marked by self-righteously obeying the law (trying to earn or merit salvation).
Saul's heart was WICKED until he was converted. Saul's will was SELFISH before he was converted. His heart (will) was not right with God when he was outwardly obeying the law.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 17:00:39 GMT -5
You have read an awful lot into Pauls intentions. How do you know he was selfish? and only seeking salvation? In fact he had no idea that he needed a saviour...the mystery had not yet been fully revealed had it?
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 17:02:29 GMT -5
You still didn't deal with this statement which is obviously flawed.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 17:04:13 GMT -5
Saul had a wicked heart because Sauls will was trying to selfishly save himself through self-righteousness. His will was not right with God. His will was not obeying God. A wicked heart is a selfish will!
Saul had a wicked heart, and therefore needed to be BORN AGAIN, because Saul's will was selfish, his heart was wicked.
Before Saul was converted, he NEVER genuinely or truly obeyed God. The bible says that sinners NEVER do good. They don't obey God truly in anything. All their so called obedience is just selfish self-righteousness.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 17:06:14 GMT -5
Pauls heart was wicked before he knew anything of the gospel was it not?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 17:08:26 GMT -5
Before Paul was converted, He never truly obeyed God. He was entirely sinful without any real righteousness at all. He was totally morally depraved. There was nothing good in him. His heart and his will was not right with God until he was converted.
Alan,
Can you define these words before we go further?
- What is "heart"?
- What is a wicked heart?
- What is a good heart?
- What is a pure heart?
- What is a new heart?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 31, 2007 17:09:04 GMT -5
I'll be back on probably tomorrow. I am about to go have dinner with my wife.
|
|
|
Post by alan4jc on Dec 31, 2007 17:15:34 GMT -5
Have a great night! I am at work and getting busy
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 1, 2008 14:30:43 GMT -5
These are some solid biblical truths for consideration:
Sin is entirely voluntary, optional, and avoidable; the existence of sin is a totally contingent reality: Gen 4:6-7, Deut 8:2, Judges 2:20-22, Exodus 33:2, Exodus 34:24, Eze 3:19, Eze 12:13, Eze 33:19, Jer 18:8-10, Psalms 81:13, Job 11:14, Matt 23:26, Romans 6:12, 1Corinthians 10:13
Men are fully responsible for making themselves sinners, entirely the cause of their own rebellion: Genesis 6:12, Exodus 32:7, Deut 9:12, Deut 32:5, Judges 2:19, Hos 9:9, Ps 14:2-3, Isaiah 53:6, Ecclesiastes 7:29 Romans 3:23
|
|