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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 7, 2005 14:01:00 GMT -5
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Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 7, 2005 16:47:17 GMT -5
I read the first article and agree with it wholeheartedly. As I continued to read the Bible for myself along with what people like Charles Finney wrote, I saw that most of the preaching and teaching that was going on in this country was not scriptural at all. I humbled myself before God as I saw the standards He had given in His holy Word for living a holy life above ALL sin, and found God to be true to His Word as He empowered me to live a holy life above all sin. I never hesitate to preach or tell sinners that I do not sin because this is not only Biblical but it is my own personal experience.
"Every man that has this hope in him purifies himself EVEN AS HE IS PURE" 1 John 3:3.
"Whosover is born of God does not commit sin..." 1 John 3:9.
"Whosever is born of God sins not..." 1 John 5:18.
"...without holiness no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12:14.
A preacher once told me "Anyone who is not preaching holiness is not preaching the gospel, because when you do not preach holiness, you are taking away the power of the gospel."
I will read the other articles later.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Dec 8, 2005 18:35:13 GMT -5
Reminds me of an illustration I heard from Leonard Ravenhill of a preacher who always preached Holiness. All the time! One day as he was about to give a sermon, a man jumped up and said, "Why is it everytime you open that book, it says 'holiness?'" The preacher looked at him and said, "Brother, I don't even have to open it!"
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Post by Rodgers on Dec 10, 2005 19:15:51 GMT -5
Another question to ask ourselves is, what are the implications of thinking that a human cannot stop sinning. Or better yet, to be human simply implies sin. The argument for those who do not want to stop sinning usually is, "we are only human." Was not our Lord himself a human? Indeed He was a human, a human without sin. To be human is not to be sinfull, to be a child of the devil is to be sinfull and to be a child of God is to be righteous. The problem with the logic, human=sin is that Christ himself was human. And if we say to be human is sinful are we not teaching an anti-Christ doctrine. If any man denys that Jesus came in the flesh that man is an anti-christ.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Dec 10, 2005 19:53:11 GMT -5
Hmm... How about this then; to be BORN [after the seed of Adam, that is] is to be sinful - to be BORN AGAIN is to be righteous.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 10, 2005 20:51:56 GMT -5
Rodgers: Often when someone confesses in the open air that they have lied or stolen, I ask them what that makes them. Rather then saying liar or thief, they will say, "human". I explain that they were human before they lied, before they stole. And that you don't have to lie and steal to be human!
Olver: it is interesting how some will believe in imparted sinfulness but will not believe in imparted righteousness! Not only is righteousness imputed to the Christian, but it is also imparted!
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Post by Miles Lewis on Dec 10, 2005 21:13:15 GMT -5
Amen! Another one in the open air is people saying we are sinners because of Adam... always an excuse. Well, just ask them why did adam sin? The answer is the same reason you sinned... because you wanted to. For an awesome message, listen to Paris Reidhead's "Right Use of the Law" available on www.sermonindex.net
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Post by josh on Dec 11, 2005 0:10:33 GMT -5
We were talking about this topic at Aus - EBC and it is something I have to look into more. Maybe another read of Wesleys ' Doctrine of Christian Perfection'
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Post by Tommy Bell on Dec 11, 2005 3:41:31 GMT -5
Hey Josh , are you recovered from EBC, took me days after the Austin trip. Was good to hear from you bro !!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 11, 2005 14:16:46 GMT -5
I wrote this awhile ago and thought I'd post it:
Questions for those opposing complete repentance
COMPLETE REPENTANCE
I believe with all my heart in preaching complete repentance A.K.A. holiness. While some tell me I am following in the foot steps of John Wesley, I would like to believe I am following in the foot steps of Jesus Christ. I have only read one sermon by John Wesley. What I believe in preaching I have found in the scriptures, and not in Mr. Wesley's sermons as wonderful as I am sure they are.
I have put together some questions for those who oppose the preaching of complete repentance.
1) Which sin is un-repent able? Please be specific. Which sin can not be overcome through Jesus Christ? Which sin can't we live without?
2) According to your theology, how much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?
3) What is meant by Jesus when He said "follow me"? Matt 4:19.
4) What is meant by Jesus when He said "For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you." John 13:5
5) What is meant by Jesus when He said "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Matt 5:48
6) What is meant by Jesus when He said "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"? Luke 13:3
7) What is meant by Jesus when He said "go and sin no more"? John 5:14, John 8:11
8) What is meant by Jesus when He said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled." Matt 5:6
9) What is meant by Jesus when He said "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God." Matt 5:8
10) What is meant by John when he said "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 1:7
11) What is meant by John when he said "if we confess our sins, He is fiathful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"? 1 John 1:9
12) What is meant by John when he said "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And IF anyone sins...." 1 John 2:1
13) What is meant by John when he said "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:3
14) What is meant by John when he said "He who says, 'I know Him' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4.
15) What is meant by John when he said "but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:5
16) What is meant by John when he said "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." 1 John 2:6
17) What was meant by John when he said "And you konw that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1 John 3:5
18) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." 1 John 3:6.
19) What is meant by John when he said "He who sins is of the devil"? 1 John 3:8.
20) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"? 1 John 3:9
21) What is meant by John when he said "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God". 1 John 3:10
22) What is meant by John when he said "And whatever we ask we recieve from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight"? 1 John 3:22
23) What is meant by John when he said "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments"? 2 John 1:6
24) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God"? 2 John 1:9
25) What is meant by John when he said "but he who does evil has not seen God"? 3 John 1:11
26) What is meant by Jude when he said "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"? Jude 1:24
27) What was meant by Paul when he wrote "having been set free from sin"? Romans 6:18, 6:22
28) What is meant by Paul when he said "Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord"? Romans 6:11
29) What is meant by Paul when he said "And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God"? Romans 6:13
30) What is meant by Paul when he said "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."? 2 Cor 7:1
31) What is meant by Paul when he said "Him we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus"? Col 1:28
32) What is meant by Paul when he wrote: Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.? Col 4:12
33) What was meant by James when he said But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.? James 1:4
34) What did Peter mean when he said But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.? 1 Peter 5:10
35) What was meant by Paul who said I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.? Gal 5:15
36) What was meant by John the Baptist when he said The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!? John 1:29
37) What does the Psalmist mean when he wrote "Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, Nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive blessing from the Lord, And righteousness from the God of his salvation."? Ps 24:3-6
38) What is meant by Jesus who said "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."? John 17:23
39) What is meant by Paul who said "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? Heb 10:26
40) What is meant by Paul who said "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Co 13:5
41) What is meant by Jesus who said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also."? Matt 23:25-26
42) What was meant by Luke when he wrote "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."? Luke 1:6
43) What is meant by Paul who said who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.? 1 Co 1:8
44) What is meant by Paul who said that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world? Php 2:15
45) What is meant by Paul who said concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Php 3:6
46) What is meant by Paul who said in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight? Col 1:22
47) What is meant by Paul who said so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints? 1 Th 3:13
48) What is meant by Paul who said Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? 1 Th 5:23
49) What is meant by Paul who said A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach? 1 Ti 3:2
50) What is meant by Paul who said But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless? 1 Ti 3:10
51) What is meant by Paul who said And these things command, that they may be blameless. 1 Ti 5:7
52) What is meant by Paul who said that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing 1 Ti 6:14
53) What is meant by Paul who said if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. Tit 1:6
54) What is meant by Paul who said For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money? Tit 1:7
55) What is meant by Paul who said Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 2 Pe 3:14
56) What is meant by Paul who said Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
57) What is meant by James who said Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded? James 4:8
58) What is meant by Jesus who said Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mr 1:15
59) What is meant by Paul who said "Be saved from this perverse generation? Acts 2:40
60) What is meant by Paul who said And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal 5:24
61) What does it mean when Paul said "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it"? 1 Cor 10:13
62) What is meant by Paul when he said So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?
63) What was meant by Jesus when He said But Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62
think it is important that I make one thing clear:
I am not by any means promoting salvation by works or that a man has the power to save himself through his works. What I am saying is that there is power in the blood of Jesus, there is power in the grace of God. There is more power in them then some believe. Not only does the blood have the power to make you righteous in the sight of God, but it has the power to actually make you righteous. God is able to save a man to the uttermost. This is not salvation by your own righteousness, it is salvation by the righteousness of Christ. The salvation of God does not merely make you look holy on the outside to God, but it is a deep cleansing and change of the inner man. It is cleaning the inside of the cup, not merely the outside. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Being born-again by the Spirit of God is not merely being born-again in the eyes of God, but is actually having your entire life, not merely part of your life changed. Salvation and sanctification go hand in hand. They are married and have never been divorced. That is why the bible says "repent and believe".
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Post by josh on Dec 11, 2005 22:44:34 GMT -5
Hey Josh , are you recovered from EBC, took me days after the Austin trip. Was good to hear from you bro !! Hey Tommy! I wrote the last message from the airport, as I was waiting for the aeroplane. But I have done a bit of research into this topic, and I still checking some points.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 14, 2005 17:17:52 GMT -5
The way I define or explain it is this; It's not that a Christian cannot sin, but that a Christian does not have to sin. A Christian is capable of sin just as any other, but if we love God we will keep His commandments.
Two of my favorite holiness preachers were Leonard Ravenhill and Duncan Campbell. They both used to say it this way, "You'll never get to the place where it's impossible for you to sin. But praises be to God that you are in the position where it's possible for you not to sin."
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Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 14, 2005 19:25:00 GMT -5
Amen! Where do you guys stand on the issue of original sin, or that man is born a sinner. By some of the responses I get the impression some of you are in favor of this doctrine.
It is nothing worth dividing over, but I do not agree with the doctrine of original sin, or that man is born a sinner, and I think it is one reason why it is so hard to convince people they can live without or above sin.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 says that God created man upright. Sin must be a choice (1 John 3:4, Romans 6:16). If it is not a choice then why take responsibility for it. Also if man is born a sinner, then babies go to hell and God creates sin.
I believe the few passages that seem to indicate that man is born a sinner (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Romans 5:12-14, and Ephesians 2:2-3, etc), are not actually saying that at all but are being read into by our constantly being taught that we are born sinners.
I do not want to create controversy or division, but I think this is an important issue, and worth discussing. Many reliable preachers and theologians of the past did not believe in original sin (notably Finney) and this doctrine actually came from the 5th century Catholic church.
What do you guys say about this issue?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 14, 2005 20:23:50 GMT -5
Though I am not 100% sure on this issue, I've talked to David Ravenhill and Winkie Pratney a good bit about it, as well as studied the scriptures and other books.
One thing Winkie says is, "is sin physical or is it spiritual? If it's physical and you can be born with it, that we received it when we were in Adams loins, then when you bleed a little bit of sin comes out. Or when you sneeze you become holier. But if it's spiritual, a willful act of disobedience, how could a child be guilty of it?" He says that the doctrine of original sin came from Augustine who was influenced by eastern thinking, that all things physical are sinful.
My question would be, if we can inherit sinfulness from our parents, could we not then also receive holiness from our parents? Wouldn't it work both ways? If your parents are sinful, and therefore give birth to sinful children, would not redeemed holy parents give birth to holy children?
Though I agree that all those in Adam are made sinners. But made is the sense that someone is made a deacon. They must match certain requirements to be made a deacon, and one must match certain requirements to be made a sinner; disobedience! Just as there are requirements to receive life through Christ; repentance.
Though I'm still not sure about all this. And still have many questions. I will confidently say that a child is not born guilty. God hated the Old Testament proverb, "the fathers ate sour grapes, and the childrens teeth were set on edge." God time and time again says a child is not to be punished for the sins of his father. And a sinner will not be punished for the sins of Adam, but for his own sins.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 14, 2005 20:32:29 GMT -5
I agree with everything you are saying. Have you ever read A.T. Overstreet's book "Are Men Born Sinners?" You can read it on Dennis Carroll's website "The Gospel Truth" along with many other great books.
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Post by josh on Dec 14, 2005 21:33:45 GMT -5
Are we born with sin or without, that question has been fought over for hundreds of years. Now I am not 100% sure on where I stand with it.
As soon as we are born we start to die, and death is a result of sin, so it is a physical outworking of sin. Does this apply even if we have never sinned? or has the sin of the parents been imputed upon us?
Its an interesting topic, personally I am leaning towards the orignal sin. But will conitnue to look into it.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Dec 14, 2005 23:58:11 GMT -5
Funny, I was just about to start a thread on this issue of original sin. I too am not 100% on the issue. Sort of why I wanted some input. Listening to that message by Reidhead first even gave me the idea that it might not actually be biblical. It has come up in the open air a few times. I was reasoning with someone once and when I said "The wages of sin is death" and "The soul that sins, it shall die, therefore, the reason you will die is because you have sinned." His response was, "Well, what about aborted babies or little children that die? Did they sin? Do they go to hell?"
Huh... now that is a good question.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 15, 2005 1:28:06 GMT -5
If man is born a sinner then they do. If he is not born a sinner then they don't.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 says God made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 15, 2005 16:59:21 GMT -5
Here is a verse to concider..
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I think it is interesting that it says that death passed upon all men... not sin. Yes, it says that all have sinned.. that would seem to be a willing action, not something that passed on to them. That would fall in line to what Miles' heckler asked. The world is cursed from Adams fall. Women have pain while having birth and men have to work. I feel confident that God doesn't send children to Hell. I'm no theologian.. just a verse to consider.
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Post by Michael Anderson on Dec 15, 2005 22:20:46 GMT -5
I hope all have read 1Cor 7:12-14. I believe young children are clean by the believing parent. A little off the subject.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 16, 2005 12:08:05 GMT -5
If a child is born guilty, then every child that has ever been aborted is in Hell. God is just and fair and I find nothing in the Bible to support that children are born sinners. I do agree that you don't have to teach a child to sin however. Children are born with the propensity (not sure if that is spelled right) to sin and the opportunity to sin, just like Adam and Eve. What sends someone to Hell is the willful act of rebellion against God (sin) and deciding not to turn from that and put their faith in Christ as the only way of salvation.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 16, 2005 16:35:07 GMT -5
Amen! I agree.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Dec 17, 2005 2:39:15 GMT -5
Amen. I thank God for you Rev. Thanks for the input guys.
Miles
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brian
New Member
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Post by brian on Dec 17, 2005 12:24:18 GMT -5
Hey guys!
Here's my half-cent on it:
God will have mercy in whom he will have mercy!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 17, 2005 12:26:14 GMT -5
Amen RevK!
I have heard what is called "aggravated temptation". Meaning, a child is born with aggravated temptation; that it's much easier for him to sin then it was for Adam or Eve. That a child is put into this world with an incline or leaning to sin, but of couse it not forced or made to sin.
I thought it was interesting.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 17, 2005 20:09:20 GMT -5
Amen Jesse, I would agree with that...I mean think about the world Adam and Eve were "born" into. It was perfect, it wasn't effected by sin, there was no sin around them, no one else had sinned yet. Now when children are born, they are born into a world that is FULL of sin, that is effected by sin and is FULL of sinners. With all those things in mind it HAS TO BE harder for children born today than it was for Adam or even Adam's children.
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Post by Avery on Jan 15, 2006 17:23:58 GMT -5
I think alot of people take the scripture out of context to fulfill this doctrine,
I personally know at least four men who claim to be "entirely sanctified"...
One after further examination said... well I mean the big, willful sins... I am not free from mistake...
I think that was more honest...
I think the passages of scripture from John that people use to justify their state of "sinless perfection", is alot like a lawyer arguing the meaning of the founders statements...
but the scripture teaching is clear...
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
but John said he writes this so that we won't sin...
so here... sin is a matter of faith working itself out in our lives... not works defining for us what faith is!!!
Sin is not abiding in the faith.. and the faith states that we have all sinned... and fallen short of the glory of God...
sinning won't keep you out of heaven, unless you don't have faith,
but not sinning, won't earn you a way to heaven, unless you have faith...
because anyhting not done in faith is sin... and this is why John wrote the book.. so that we won't sin.. and be strengthened by faith!!!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 15, 2006 17:34:50 GMT -5
We must take a look at 1John 1:8 in context. This is vitally important.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. " 1 John 1:7-10
John Wesley and Charles Finney both have great comments on this text.
John Wesley says that vs 7 and vs 9 is repeating the same truth, and vs 8 and 10 are repeating the same truth.
vs 7 and vs 9 both say that we can be cleansed from all sin. While vs 8 and vs 10 say if we have no sin, or say we have not sinned, we make him a liar. Wesley says this is talking about past sins, not present sins.
Charles Finney makes a great point as to why it must be talking about past sins and not present sins. Vs 9 says if we confess, we are cleansed from all sin. But yet if vs 8 is talking about present sin, and yet you confess and are cleansed of all sin, if you profess to be cleansed from all sin, you are a liar?
So if you confess you will be cleansed from all sin, but if you confess to be cleasned from all sin you are a liar? How does that work?
It makes sense to me that vs 7 and 9 both say you can be cleansed entirely, and vs 8 and vs 10 is talking about past sins.
If we say we have no sin from the past, we decieve ourselves, because all have sinned. But though we have sinned in the past, we don't have to sin in the present or the future. And that is true salvation.
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Post by Avery on Jan 15, 2006 20:12:26 GMT -5
I have heard that exegesis before too...
and I agree that sanctification is a process by faith in which the Christian will sin less and less...
but I don't see either in scripture, nor from experience, where anyone who has claimed to be sinless, ever has been.. including the apostles..... though they were repentant, and confessing men of God... they were not beyond the nature of the flesh... though the Spirit worked mightily through them...
Are the same men who teach this doctrine... and that is what it is... greater than those who walked with Jesus...
I don't think the Bible teaches the sinless perfection of the believer... outside of the resurrection... and Paul warns about those who teach that this has already happened...
anyone disagree...? Give me some scriptures to help me believe otherwise...
faith comes by hearing, the word of God that is!!!
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 15, 2006 20:51:23 GMT -5
Amen Avery, I would have to agree. The way Wesley and Finney translated those four verses seems like they are trying to make it "fit" what they already believed. Plus the fact that knowing what the original language says in this situation definitely overrides the "context." 1 John 1:8 is definitely in the present tense in the Greek. How can "context" override that? Only if someone is trying to "fit" Scripture to their doctrine.
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