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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 31, 2006 16:31:14 GMT -5
Some call is blameless, some call it sinless, some call it faultless. Some call it holiness, some call it entire sanctification, some all it sinless perfection. Some call it a clean heart some call it a pure heart some call it a new heart.
I call it complete repentance and obeying the Lordship of Christ.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 31, 2006 19:04:04 GMT -5
I found that I had a negative reaction when I heard "sinless perfection". When I actually picked up a book to read about it (Not knowing that was what it was about) I found I held many of the same beliefs. I think many are turned off before they ever understand what it means.
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 18, 2006 17:30:21 GMT -5
After looking over this post, I am still confused at what you actually belive about the doctrine of Christian Perfection. "Perfect Love reigning in the heart is the whole of Christian perfection" is I believe what Wesley and Chadwick say on this issue. I actually think that Samuel Chadwick is more informative and authoratative upon this issue and I urge all who havent read his work, "the call to Christian perfection" to pick it up or go to the holiness data ministry website. Google 'holiness, samuel chadwick' and it will be the first result.
Now for my two cents. I dont think Christian perfection has anything really to do with 'moral perfection' rather a renewal of the perfect union between God and man THROUGH CHRIST.
Ravenhill said this, "Righteousness is our relationship with man, and holiness is our relationship with God." We are cleansed from all sin by the blood of Christ, therefore our relationship to God is perfectly restored.
We can boldly come before the throne of grace. However if anyman sin, we have advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Why would Jesus need to sit at the right hand of the Father if we can be perfect morally? Are you perfect morally? Im not, yet I am sanctified. How am I sanctified, because of the blood of Christ.
"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and SANCTIFICATION, and redemption." I Cor. 1:30
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 19, 2006 12:04:19 GMT -5
Maybe I should elaborate a little more as some of my statements may have been a little vague. The glory and benefit of the new covenant is that of meeting the responsibility of man to not sin. The Holy Ghost is the means through which we live holy. However, in order for a covenant to work, both sides have to be faithful. God is faithful but man is not always as faithful. So instead of working to keep God's moral standards outwardly, the law is put in our hearts and the Love of God shed abroad within our hearts. So instead of working from the outside in (which is impossible-The old covenant proved that) God works in us. From the inside out. Man will never be morally perfect no matter how hard he tries. The reason he will never be morally perfect is because he tries and doesnt surrender all to Jesus. Oswald Chambers said, "Christian perfection is not, and never can be, human perfection". And so now, if I cleared anything up of what I said, "Pure love alone, reigning in the heart, is the whole of Christian perfection."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 19, 2006 17:21:54 GMT -5
But of coarse if one does surrender all to Jesus, he has reached a state of perfection.
Are you saying that it is impossible to surrender all? Or that nobody will surrender all?
Evan, have you surrendered all your sin to Christ? Let's be practical and realistic. Have you any known sin in your life currently?
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Post by Juli on Mar 19, 2006 20:45:48 GMT -5
I am surprised it took so many pages before someone posted any scripture to speak to the heart of the matters discussed here. Jesse posted tons of it initially, which was a solid start on the point he was making (and supported scripturally), but then it faded away when the topic shifted slightly. When the topic shifted, the scripture thinned out. Or am I just imagining this?
Without getting into my own personal views on the doctrines in discussion here, a gentle and loving word of caution to my brothers and sisters: I see lots of quotes from Ravenhill, Finney, Wesley, etc. in this thread (and they are all good and helpful) but there is not enough scripture being quoted.
GOD'S WORD is our authority. Those men were simply doing what we are now - trying to make the Word understandable for themselves, and they wrote down their findings. And their writings certainly have value to us, but they are NOT infallible. We would do well to keep that in mind when we read these sermons, etc. But we should never use man's wisdom to help us understand these difficult truths. The mysteries of God can only be discerned by the Spirit. If we seek man's wisdom first and not the Lord's (through the Word and prayer), it is like eating the leftovers that were given to Wesley and Ravenhill first in the form of a hot meal. We go back to the original, the hot meal, the Word, and then we too walk away with divine truths expounded to us by the SPirit. And we can share our findings as they did, and compare notes as it were. Then we find we are in agreement, because we are all led by the same Spirit.
I say all this because I am guilty of being lazy oftentimes and seeking the "answers" from men and not digging into the Word for it myself. And I just wanted to caution others against this - in case someone was in danger of doing this. If I am the only one, then praise God. But He keeps me on a pretty short leash when it comes to doctrine - I must seek answers in His infallible, holy, inspired Word first, before seeking answers through any other means. May God grant us wisdom and discernment as we seek to know the deep truths of Himself.
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Post by Rick on Mar 19, 2006 22:08:22 GMT -5
Jesse said which if you believe that then you are a Pelagian, we are all born guilty hmm Romans 5 Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation Pelagianism is overhwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus Pelagian teaching was replaced with Semi-Pelagianism which sought a middle ground between Pelagianism and Augustinianism, but it too was condemned at the Second Synod of Orange in 529 A.D. However, elements of Semi-Pelagianism continued in the Western (Roman) church. It emerged again after the Reformation in modified form in Arminianism which was rejected by the Reformed churches at the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619 A.D. www.theopedia.com/PelagianismGuys study church history, even though some reformed people believe in "all babies go to heaven" which I don't think the bible speaks clearly on if they do or do not, one thing most would agree on is we are born in sin. here's finney on origianl sin (which I do not support) An important issue in the Pelagian controversy that resurfaces in Finney is the manner in which Adam’s sin influences the Adamic race. Finney’s Calvinistic background, that apparently had little influence on his theology, held that Adam sinned on behalf of the human race, that original sin included a "sin nature,” and that all are "by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3).13 Finney rejected that notion and taught that depravity is moral and not physical. He meant by this that the will, though strongly influenced by "sensibilities” and temptations, commits itself to selfish gratification.14 Since there is no physical depravity15 and "moral depravity can only be predicated of violations of moral law,”16 sinfulness is an act of each individual’s will and not a "sin nature” that can be predicated of the whole Adamic race. Thus Adamic guilt and corruption of nature, the historical doctrine of original sin, is denied by Finney as it was by Pelagius. Studying Finney’s Systematic Theology shows that this is not a caricature of his position. For example: Moral depravity, as I use the term, does not consist in, nor imply a sinful nature, in the sense that the substance of the human soul is sinful in itself. It is not a constitutional sinfulness. It is not an involuntary sinfulness. Moral depravity, as I use the term, consists in selfishness; in a state of voluntary committal of the will to self-gratification. References cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htmwww.theopedia.com/Pelagianism
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 19, 2006 22:39:11 GMT -5
Amen! Good post Rick. I agree with Finney wholeheartedly. Preach it Finney!
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Post by Juli on Mar 20, 2006 1:44:49 GMT -5
The Bible says in Romans 9:10-13 "Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." ust as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
This is a hard passage, but one we can't overlook. It clearly states that it is not by works (good or bad) but God's sovereignty and purposes that determines everything. Is this fair? Read on in the chapter, as Paul answers this age-old claim of man that God is unjust.
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
It may be a hard pill to swallow, but to the man who argues with His Creator over matters such as salvation, woe to him. Paul says it is like the clay arguing with the Potter.
Consider this if you think it is unjust for God to send someone to hell, even an unborn child who has not "done" anything: you probably picture masses of people trying to push their way into heaven, and God standing at the gate and saying "OK, you can come in, and you, and you," allowing some in and passing over many. But that is hardly the picture. Instead, every single person throughout history is running as fast and as hard as they can straight for hell, with no thoughts of God, (no one seeks him, remember?) and God, in his grace, reaches out and saves this one, and that one, and another. There is no one who God will keep out of heaven that should have otherwise been there, and there is no one in hell that didn't deserve to be there. We are all deserving of hell. Make no mistake of that. But praise be to God, in His grace He saves a remnant. And this remnant is chosen by grace. Romans 11:5-6 "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
It is this, His grace towards us when we are so deserving of hell, that propels us to His feet to adore Him, thank Him, serve Him, and obey Him. If we, even for a second miss this truth, we are in danger of taking responsibility (in part of in full) for our own salvation.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 20, 2006 11:01:28 GMT -5
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. What has an unborn baby committed? What deeds have an unborn baby done? What truth has an unborn baby not obeyedWhat has an unborn baby done in the body?What works has an unborn baby done? Reguardless if you believe that a child is born in 'sin' or not, they Bible teaches that you will be judged according to your works done in your body.
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Post by Juli on Mar 20, 2006 16:28:38 GMT -5
What has an unborn baby committed? What deeds have an unborn baby done? What truth has an unborn baby not obeyed What has an unborn baby done in the body? What works has an unborn baby done? Reguardless if you believe that a child is born in 'sin' or not, they Bible teaches that you will be judged according to your works done in your body.
The above sounds suspiciously like it denies salvation by grace, through faith, and is a works based salvation. If not, please explain so I don't misunderstand. Paul said people who believed this way were bewitched, as they began with the Spirit and then put themselves under the law. Galatians 3:1-5
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?"
So, an unborn baby doesn't have the ability to have faith - OK, granted. But what about the metally handicapped, the autistic, the illiterate who can't read, the one who never hears, etc. If you say it is by works, action, etc...then you open up a whole can of worms that you must make the determination who is saved and who isn't. Then we have to start making standards, etc....sounds legalistic, doesn't it? WHich is why ALL people, apart from anything else, are first and foremost saved by God's grace, as he always initiates everything. Do I believe God is gracious and will save the unborn child? The aborted child? The infant who dies? yes. But not because they were sinless, unable to have faith, etc. I believe they will be saved because He is a gracious God, and that is VERY different from what many claim. Salvation is a owrk of the Spirit first and formost, then faith. Faith comes from hearing...etc. See how many scripture references speak to God's initiative, our response. It all begins with HIM.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 21, 2006 12:08:45 GMT -5
I didn't post any scriptures pertaining to salvation, but judgment. My point was that an unborn child has not committed a sin against God. I do not see anywhere in scripture that a person will be judged according to Adam's sin, but according to their own. Even if you believe that a person is born totally sinful, scriptures seem to say that you will be judged according to your works. I would deny that a person has salvation by grace if there is no works to back up their faith. If there is no fruit of faith then a person is no better than a devil. Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Faith, works, and repentance all go together. If you have faith in Christ, you repent, if you repent then you have good works as opposed to fleshly works. Does that sound like heresy or holy faith?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 21, 2006 14:52:45 GMT -5
Sounds like holy faith to me.
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Post by guest on Mar 21, 2006 21:39:10 GMT -5
So tell me, you who believe in sinless perfection, have you sinned since you became a Christian? Micah Just kidding ;D Steve Noel
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 22, 2006 11:59:28 GMT -5
Jesse, At this moment I have no knowledge of sin in my life no. I have surrendered all to Christ. But what I was trying to say is this, the New Covenant meet that requirement of not sinning within us. It works from the inward part outward "The law written on our hearts".
It is possible to surrender all, but people I think try to work towards the second blessing and miss the mark. I have surrendered all, by experience I know that it is possible. My theology is a bit sketchy still and always will be I think, especially on issues like this. But it is possible for Jesus to work in us that state of perfection, but not possible for us to work that state of perfection ouselves. If someone can, put these scriptures into relation for me, as I seem to misnderstand. Much prayer has gone into this study, but I guess I am still missing something.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deicieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us" -----Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; fir his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God."
These scriptures, and others like it, create the paradox that I cannot overcome. "I cannot split this hair". Can someone else do it?
I have always thought that the word "abide" in most of the scriptures related to this doctrine played a signifacant role. However, some of you present a good case otherwise.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 22, 2006 22:39:06 GMT -5
Maybe the Analitical-Literal translation will help you understand this verse... 1Jo 3:9 Every one having been begotten from God is not practicing sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to be sinning, because he has been begotten from God. Or in other words continue in sin. I like literal translations because they do not try to use "proper" English. Sometimes reading it might be confusing but literal translations usually don't try to "fix" the sentance, but just translate it the way it is. I know some say that 1 John 1:8 should mean that they "have never sinned, the decieve themselves." I'm not 100% sure. The only translation I have seen that would promote that is the Contemperary English Version. (CEV) If we say that we have not sinned, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth isn't in our hearts. If you want some really good Bible Study software go to www.e-sword.net It's free and it will give you about everything you could ever want!
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