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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 0:51:03 GMT -5
Hey brothers and sisters,
Tonight we went out to preach at South Beach for the art festival. Afterwards we went to eat at Cracker Barrel and some of the guys preached a mini sermon in the restaurant after we finished eating (better to do this afterwards in case you get kicked out then you can eat first especially if you are really hungry).
They ran into some Oneness Pentecostals who engaged them in a doctrinal conversation on being baptized in the name of Jesus only. I came in on the middle of the conversation so I did not hear everything.
I have met Oneness Pentecostals before and talked with them and considered them to be true brethren. Others say they are a cult. The guys on the team who preached to them thought they were a cult. I have been attending an Assembly of God church for the last 4 years (Pentecostal) and I was told by the guys (they both have taken classes to become ordained Assembly of God ministers) that the Assemblies of God considers them to be a cult.
I do not see what the big deal is about being baptized in the name of Jesus vs. Father , Son, and Holy Spirit, but I am open to hear them out as I have in the past. I had a great conversation with some of the guys after the conversation and they seemed to be very godly, sincere brethren. This has always been true of the Oneness Pentecostals I have met.
What do you guys know about Oneness Pentecostals and are they a cult? Any information would be appreciated.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 16, 2006 1:16:36 GMT -5
I have struggled over this as well brother. I used to live in Louisiana where Oneness Penecostalism is the most popular. I believe that the biggest Oneness Penecostal church is right in Alexandria (or at least one of the biggest). Unfortunately, I would consider them a cult. They don't believe in the Trinity. They believe that there was first the Father, then the Son and now it is the Holy Spirt. The focus of most of their Doctrine comes from the book of Acts, which is very dangerous. They are also very exclusive. They are one of the "denominations" that say "if you aren't one of us then you are on your way to Hell." They believe that speaking in tongues is the only sign that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit and if you don't speak in tongues then you aren't saved. They also believe that if ladies don't wear long skirts at ALL times, with long hair (up in a bun) and no makeup that they are not saved. I am not AT ALL against modesty, but they become a little legalistic about it. These doctrines lead to legalism and self-righteousness. Unfortunately, after all the experiences that I have had with Oneness Penecostal people, I would say that most of them are not even saved. I haven't met any with much of the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22)....hope this helps...
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 16, 2006 1:25:09 GMT -5
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 18:03:28 GMT -5
Thank you brother that is helpful. I looked at the sight and read a little.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 16, 2006 18:41:23 GMT -5
Messenger Micah,
Rev K is right on in describing the Oneness Pentecostals as legalistic. It's true also that they believe that unless you are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues you are not saved. Also, if you are not baptized in the name of Jesus only, then you are not saved. The Oneness people that I've run into don't ask if you're born again. They want to know if you've been baptised in the Spirit according to Acts 2:4. This is a shame because the young man I met was out street witnessing and this was his emphasis. I am also seeking credentials with the Assemblies of God (I'll be interviewed in July - God willing).
Steve
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 20:53:40 GMT -5
stevenoel,
Thank you for that information. While I have got you here and you are seeking credentials with AG, I was curious where you stand on the issue of original sin. I am a member at an AG church and the issue of original sin came up. The associate Pastor (I used to serve as a deacon in this church) talked to me about it and they want me to talk to the local presbyter about it. It created kind of a stir.
It is a tough thing for a holiness street preacher to fit into a church.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 16, 2006 22:06:59 GMT -5
I've ran into some Oneness Pentecostals before. Some of them are very ignorant of scripture. One told me to be saved I had to do what was in Acts 2:28 and he stressed in that order! If its not in that order you are not saved! Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
He said 1. Repent. 2. baptized in water in Jesus name. 3. Receive the Holy Ghost. And that it was impossible to do it any other way. This is refuted by scripture. Acts 10. The man I was talking to didn't believe me and even told me that when that I was quoting old testament.
When one asks me if I was baptized in the 'name' of Jesus I say, " Yes! I was baptized in the authority of Jesus." The word name in the Greek means authority. Say I do something in the name of humanity. I would be inferring that I am doing it "for" or in the authority of.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 16, 2006 23:17:11 GMT -5
Thanks brother.
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Post by Travis M Chapman on Jan 17, 2006 21:09:40 GMT -5
Oneness Pentecostals or Jesus Only is a cult. They deny the Trinity which means they are not Christian. They believe that Jesus is God and that he was the Father in the OT, the Son in the NT and today the Holy Spirit. There is only one person and one God according to them. The bible teaches that Jesus is the son, and that He is the 2nd person in the Trinity. The Trinity is one God who exists as three separate persons. I wouldn't have such a problem with O.P. misuse of scripture so much such as being baptized in Jesus name only if they had the right God vs. a counterfeit. Assembly of Gods are orthodox meaning they hold to the truths of scripture. 'Apostolic', UPC, are some of the names the Jesus only cult goes by. This is a heresy started way back in the 300's I think by a man named Arius. This is one reason we had the Council of Nicea in 325ad. Modalism and Sabellianism are also terms that describe this unbiblical teaching.
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rc
Junior Member
May God be glorified 1 Cor 10:31
Posts: 63
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Post by rc on Aug 16, 2008 1:30:15 GMT -5
I recommend a book by Gregory Boyd called Oneness Penacostalism and the Trinity, even though I do not agree with his open theism. The book answers alot of their scripture twisting and tells Gregory Boyd's story of him leaving the United Pentacostal church.
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Post by yadanni on Aug 18, 2008 8:37:13 GMT -5
I am curious to find out on what scriptural basis is one not a christian if he does not believe in the trinity as commented.
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 18, 2008 11:28:09 GMT -5
I am curious to find out on what scriptural basis is one not a christian if he does not believe in the trinity as commented. Agreed.
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Post by logic on Aug 18, 2008 13:50:51 GMT -5
Is this where they think that Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit? Jesus is all 3?
Whosoever speaks a word against ME, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against ME, it shall not be forgiven him, Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, something in Aramaic, "Me oh My, why have I forsaken myself!" Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
then did Jesus Jesus would have went out into a mountain to talk to Himself. Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
All things are delivered to me by myself: and no man knows who the Son is, but me... Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
As the I knows me, even so know I the Myself: Joh 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
All things that I have are mine: John 16:15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
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BroPatOC
New Member
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Posts: 42
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Post by BroPatOC on Aug 18, 2008 14:24:53 GMT -5
Logic, try 1 Cor 15:24-28 (KJV) out as well:
24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Have fun trying to rewrite that!
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 18, 2008 15:26:31 GMT -5
Here is a video of me preaching on the Doctrine of the Trinity a while back: Trinity Video
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 18, 2008 16:26:35 GMT -5
Here is a video of me preaching on the Doctrine of the Trinity a while back: Trinity Video Kerrigan, I listened to the sermon - solid Trinitarian teaching. I think you mentioned some good things and brought up some good scripture. However, I cannot figuratively walk from from the sermon without the impression that you were describing three gods, not one. If I was not versed in theology, I would be sure that is what you believed, except for the disclaimer saying otherwise. Maybe I'll start a thread to talk about this more. Also, you had mentioned in the sermon about Christ's ignorance of the hour of his return. A friend of mine struggled with this issue for a long time, not being willing to accept the divinity of an ignorant Christ, which is what Mark 13:32 seems to suggest. I found this article for him which settled the issue, it's titled, "MARK 13:32 AND CHRIST'S SUPPOSED IGNORANCE: FOUR PATRISTIC SOLUTIONS", just thought I'd pass it along: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3803/is_200710/ai_n21137938Matt
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Post by logic on Aug 18, 2008 18:23:32 GMT -5
Here is a video of me preaching on the Doctrine of the Trinity a while back: Trinity Video
Kerrigan, I listened to the sermon - solid Trinitarian teaching. I think you mentioned some good things and brought up some good scripture. However, I cannot figuratively walk from from the sermon without the impression that you were describing three gods, not one. If I was not versed in theology, I would be sure that is what you believed, except for the disclaimer saying otherwise. Maybe I'll start a thread to talk about this more.The word God must not bring to mind a singular concept. God is three actual persons with three distinctive thought patterns, with the same mind & purpose. They are 3 in 1 perfect, total unity. Jesus, while still in His Earthly ministery did not know the hour of His return. Jesus surely knows it now.
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Post by yadanni on Aug 18, 2008 18:34:39 GMT -5
I am curious to find out on what scriptural basis is one not a christian if he does not believe in the trinity as commented.
Secondly
If the doctrine of the Trinity is so fundamental to Christianity, as you claim, why is there a complete failure on the part of Jesus and his apostles to articulate it anywhere?
If a three person God exists, why is this three person God never once mentioned anywhere in the entire Bible ?
How do you expect anyone to believe the shema given by God to Israel, "The LORD our God the LORD is one" was intended to mean to the Jewish people "the Lord is one substance" or "the LORD is one trio"?
Why would God indicate in many ways to the Old Testament Jews that he was one person if indeed he was three persons all along?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2008 19:10:46 GMT -5
"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Gen. 1:26
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
There is a plurality of persons (three distinct persons) but a oneness of essence and purpose. Three united persons make up the One true God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2008 19:11:38 GMT -5
The doctrine of the Trinity is something God has been revealing ever since the beginning of when He started writing the bible. For example, scriptures like, "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" (Gen. 1:26) and also, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) This all reveals the internal plurality of the one God!
In the book "The Nature & Character of God" Winkie Pratney dedicated a large portion of his book to the Trinity, (pages 255-429)
Here is a section from his book that I thoroughly enjoyed:
"The Word 'Trinity' or 'Triunity' is not a biblical term but a theological one, describing the idea of three distinct centers of consciousness in the one God.
God is dinstictly called 'one Lord' (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29), but we must examine closely as to how the word one is being used. There are two kinds of unity or 'oneness' in both English and Hebrew; an absolute unity and compound unity. Absolute unity is that of singularity; I give you one apple, and you get a single apple. But if you ask for 'one' bunch of grapes, you don't simply get one grape! 'One' in this case is a word of compound unity, the many in the one.
One (Hebrew)
Yachead is the OT word for absolute unity; a mathematical or numerical one. It is used about 12 times in the OT, but never to describe the unity of God (Gen. 22:2, 12; Zech. 12:10)
Echad however speaks of a compound or collective unity. In marriage "the two shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); a crowd can gather together 'as one' (Ezek. 3:1); or be of one mind or heart: "All the rest of Israel were of one heart to make David king" (1Chron 12:38). This is the compound plural always used of God when He is called "one" Lord.
.... El is a word used of God... The Father is El (Gen 14:18-22); The Son is El (Isa/ 7:14 [Immanuel]; Isa. 9:6-9); The Holy Spirit is El (Job 33:4; 37:10).
Elohim is the plural of El and is used about 2,500 times in the OT. It suggests a plurality of persons in the divine Godhead...
Adon (singular) or Adonai (plural) - Master, Owner, Ruler of All (Ps. 147:5; 86:12)"
End Quote.
So "Yachead" is the Hebrew word of absolute unity and it is NEVER used for God. But "Echad" is the Hebrew word of collective or compound unity and is ABUNDANTLY used for God.
"Elohim" is the plural term for the singular "El". "El" = God but "Elohim" God's. (not that there are many Gods, but that there is a plurality of personalities which make up one God).
"Adonai" is the plural version for the singular "Adon". "Adon" = Master while "Adonai" = Master's. (Again, not to suggest any polytheism, but rather to teach a plurality of personalities in God."
This was another part I thought was very good from the book:
"Q. Jesus prayed, 'that they may be one, even as we are one' (John 17:22). When we say that God is 'one' aren't we talking about His singleness of purpose of harmony of personal unity?
A. The Godhead indeed enjoy perfect unity or harmony of purpose in personal relationship that is to be a model for the Church. But the substantial unity of the Godhead is based on another consideration that are metaphysical, not merely moral - that since each member is uncreated, they are thus essential one in "substance, nature, and essence"
End quote.
So the Godhead are in fact one in purpose (moral) and they are also one in substance or nature (metaphysical) though there are three separate or distinction persons (personalities) all contained in the one (echad) collective God!!
Here is the way I see it:
Many doctrines = One Faith
Many parts = One Body
Many members = One Family
Three persons = One God
One God is made up of three distinct personalities, namely, the Father - The Son - and The Holy Spirit. Or you could say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Oneness Pentecostals, as opposed to traditional Trinitarianism, wrongly interprets the word "one".
WHAT DOES "ONE" REALLY MEAN??
"One", which Oneness Pentecostals try to use against the doctrine of the Trinity, is "echad", pronounced as "ekh-awd", and it means "united".
Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be ONE (echad, united) flesh.
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is ONE (echad, united) Lord."
Just as a man and his wife are united (one) so also is God united (one). The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are in perfect unity and harmony, they are one in purpose.
But the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not the same person (though they are the same God).
ONENESS IS PERFECT UNITY AMONGST PERSONS
Just as a married couple are "one" (two persons that are united), Jesus also said this about the Church: "that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE." John 17:22
If Jesus and the Father were one person, instead of two persons in unity, then Jesus prayed that all Christians would be one person, instead of many persons in unity.
- Did Jesus want Christians to be one person or to be united persons??
The same way Jesus was one with the Father, Jesus wanted the Church to be one with each other. Jesus and the Father are two persons that are one in purpose, they are united or in unity. And so Jesus wants Christians, who are different persons, to be one in purpose, to be united or in unity.
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So very clearly:
- A married couple is "one" (Gen 2:24): two persons that are in unity
- The Christian Church is "one" (John 17:22): many persons that are in unity
- God is "one" (Deut 6:4) : Three Divine Persons that are in unity
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 18, 2008 19:53:59 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that Jesse. I particularly liked the Hebrew Word Study part of it. I might have to get that book. I have heard you talk about it several times. What else does Winkie talk about in that book?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2008 21:02:42 GMT -5
He talks about the nature and character of God. He explains how nature is metaphysical, something you do not choose. But character is moral, something you do choose. The book covers the natural and moral attributes of God.
That includes the debate whether God is inside of time or outside of time. That has to do with the nature of God. I enjoyed what I read from this book on that particular issue.
He also talks about the moral government of God and the free will of both God and man.
It is a very scholarly, thought provoking book. I enjoyed how every topic relating to the nature and character of God had a thorough Greek and Hebrew word study. Winkie also compiled great quotes on each topic from Christians throughout history.
You can read some reviews on Amazon.
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Post by yadanni on Aug 18, 2008 23:34:57 GMT -5
Elohim and Echad. Over the past years i have looked into these words in studies. here is an article that explains the meaning of these words. I do not endorse all the beliefs of this author or ministry that provided this article, but i believe he has written well on this particular subject of Elohim and Echad. There is much good teaching on these words though i do not consent to all the doctrines held by these writers. Echad either means one or it does not? I believe its a critical word to understand. God is either One as many scriptures state or He is not. Not One yet Three, But One absolutley, numerically One. ministersnewcovenant.org/Elohim%20and%20Echad.pdf
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Post by yadanni on Aug 18, 2008 23:45:42 GMT -5
quote
"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Gen. 1:26
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
There is a plurality of persons (three distinct persons) but a oneness of essence and purpose. Three united persons make up the One true God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Gen1:26 prove that God is three persons?. Surely when someone says let us, he does not claim to be speaking to multiply beings or persons of Himself, Thats a little strange. Presupposition and doctrinal bias. Scrip many times describes God as I, He, Him. Thus to say that the "Let us" conveniently means three, not two or four or five but three to harmonize with the belief of a three person God is questionable.
Do some honest research on 1John5:17 you will find this missing from majority of Manuscripts. During Christological debates in the fourth century, not one single person mentions 1John5:7. How can it be that this verse was ingnored?Augustine wrote extensively on the trin doc, check this out. he never mentions 1John5:7 not even once. Even in His comm on John, the verse is unmentioned. The verse is not found in any early greek manuscripts.
John1:1 the word was with God better translated toward God and was God.I have understood this as the logos is Gods expression, plan, purpose, reason, wisdom, thought, intent, speach, idea and they were "WITH" "TOWARD" God in the begenning and was indeed God and became flesh, in and through Jesus Christ, who was born in time and space Gal 4:4, not eternally begotton but pre existed in the heart and mind of God.
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Post by yadanni on Aug 18, 2008 23:55:07 GMT -5
Sorry i meant to say do research on 1John5:7 not 5:17.
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Post by yadanni on Aug 19, 2008 4:50:59 GMT -5
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Post by mattmisk on Aug 19, 2008 11:45:46 GMT -5
yadanni, you made the same comments I wanted to make regarding Echad and 1 John 5:17.
Matt
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Post by William the Sinner on Aug 19, 2008 15:09:02 GMT -5
quote Does Gen1:26 prove that God is three persons?. Surely when someone says let us, he does not claim to be speaking to multiply beings or persons of Himself, Thats a little strange. Presupposition and doctrinal bias. Scrip many times describes God as I, He, Him. Thus to say that the "Let us" conveniently means three, not two or four or five but three to harmonize with the belief of a three person God is questionable. He was only making the point of plurality at that junction.
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Post by William the Sinner on Aug 19, 2008 15:24:41 GMT -5
quote John1:1 the word was with God better translated toward God and was God.I have understood this as the logos is Gods expression, plan, purpose, reason, wisdom, thought, intent, speach, idea and they were "WITH" "TOWARD" God in the begenning and was indeed God and became flesh, in and through Jesus Christ, who was born in time and space Gal 4:4, not eternally begotton but pre existed in the heart and mind of God. "With" makes better sense; otherwise you will run into the logic absurdities as was previously pointed out.
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cjhh
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by cjhh on Aug 19, 2008 16:11:38 GMT -5
In Gen 15:17 didn't God make a Covenant with abram? didn't he promise there that he would pay for abrams and his childrens fault? didn't Jesus pay that price?
i guess i don't understand the argument here. the OT clearly says that God has a sense of plurality to him, yet he is still the one and only God. the OT mentions the Holy spirit several times and to my knowledge doesn't explain much besides what it(holy spirit) does. the NT i think explains well enough to understand where the OT didn't explain, that he has three specific parts not 4 or 2 or 5; like a new revolation of the understanding of our one God. i think it is safe and logical to say God has three personalities about him. what do you all think?
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