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Post by tomah on Jan 24, 2006 16:07:58 GMT -5
Well brethren, is this the way it's going to be? Shall we be caught up to meet the Lord in the air PRIOR to the tribulation period?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 24, 2006 16:46:35 GMT -5
I definitely do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. In fact, I don't believe in a dispensational view of the "end times" (i.e. pre, mid, post- trib). My view at the present time is what I call Classical Premillenial. If I understand correctly it's the primary view of the early church. That Jesus is coming back before the millenium, but not in separate phases. I believe the rapture and physical visible return are synonymous. I say "at the present time" because I'm still forming my views here.
Steve
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 24, 2006 16:49:45 GMT -5
I sure don't know. I think it is hard to make a case any way you look at it. I certainly do not lean toward any pretribulation rapture. I regret the way this idea has been taught as such a sure doctrine and the way most have bought into it. It teaches complacency and does not prepare people to be armed to suffer. I think it has done a lot of damage. I heard they used to teach pretrib in China. Now the church is suffering much tribulation and persecution. You have to wonder how a pretrib teaching goes over in countries that are under severe persecution for the gospel now.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 24, 2006 16:51:54 GMT -5
Steve,
Won't your views on this conflict with your becoming an AG minister?
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Post by bebo_kirkwood on Jan 24, 2006 17:55:35 GMT -5
I believe it happen later just because if it doesn't happen at the beggining, I won't be suprised. If it does happen at the beging great I will still be ready. But if I believe it happens at the beggining then I will am more likely to fallow the anti-christ.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 24, 2006 18:47:58 GMT -5
Messenger Micah,
I don't think so because the A/G is not real dogmatic on this point. They support the pre-trib position, but they allow ministers to hold different orthodox views. I believe that they don't want you to teach them publicly as representing the A/G though.
Steve
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 24, 2006 22:23:41 GMT -5
Steve,
Thanks again. The reason I was asking is one of the guys who preaches open air with me is in the Bereans Bible School at our church. He said they were giving him a hard time over his views on the tribulation since he did not agree with pre trib.
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Post by tomah on Jan 25, 2006 4:46:06 GMT -5
To be honest, i'm not sure whether it's classic pre-millenial or amillenial. I always thought it will be a pre-millenium return but now after further study, i'm not sure if it is scriptural. Amillenialism seems scriptural though.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 25, 2006 9:30:07 GMT -5
So you don't believe there is going to be a millennial reign of Christ?
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Post by tomah on Jan 25, 2006 10:16:51 GMT -5
Well I haven't FULLY decided but yeah, that's the way my thoughts are heading. There are a number of reasons. Mainly because pre-mill gives the ungodly an opportunity to repent AFTER Christ returns. The Jews for example that are apparently going to turn to Christ when he returns...that just cannot be.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 25, 2006 11:55:35 GMT -5
Not that either one of you are doing this but, I would never base any theology by how man can make an excuse or "get out of something." People can always find an excuse or try to find an exception in any theology. We must go by the word of God and not let man's reaction move us from truth.
Neither one of you are probably infering that but I know a lot of people don't believe or do believe certain things just because how "someone could go off the deep end with it" or use it as an excuse.
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Post by tomah on Jan 25, 2006 13:58:34 GMT -5
Preachparsly - are you pre-trib pre-mill or post-trib pre-mill??
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 25, 2006 14:34:58 GMT -5
The teaching I've been under is pre-trib, pre-mill. This is an area I do not feel myself adequate to defend.
Prophecy is not an area I am strong in.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 25, 2006 14:36:28 GMT -5
My comment above was a general comment. Not necessarily about prophecy.
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Post by tomah on Jan 25, 2006 17:15:55 GMT -5
Yeah I know brother, and you're right, but I just didn't have time to give the verses for WHY I believe what I believe as I was preparing for a home bible study that I'm just back from and it's 22:10 here and I have to be up at 4:00 so I don't have time to do it now either. Having said that, I did a study on the pre-trib rapture for our church Bible Class and you can view it on my website at www.biblicalwitness.co.uk/pretribrapture
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Post by josh on Jan 25, 2006 23:02:44 GMT -5
Amillenialism seems scriptural though. Thats true, if you take the bible in a symbolic sense. One of the first rules of hermeneutics is take the Bible literally where you can. Now amil would say the 1000 yr reign is now, and satan is already bound. A pre mil would say based off Rev 20, that the 1000 yr reign is still in the future, and there satan will be bound. post mil would say, we must convert the world first (RCC used to hold to this, thus why the christianisation occured, they have now switched to Amil) Now when I was studying Eschatology at bible college, one of my lecuterers was Amil, and I being pre mil we had alot of interesting discussions like over when the pre trib rapture thought first came about. Many say it came about in 1830's but there is a sermon that mentions it around 375 AD. But our job is in the realm of soterology, not eschatology.
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Post by tomah on Jan 26, 2006 13:25:27 GMT -5
In my study I was led to believe 1820-30 too. That's interesting about that sermon, although it's still unbiblical.
Salvation IS more important but knowledge of eschatology leads to holiness which makes it very important too. Not that I am any expert though.
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Post by josh on Jan 26, 2006 20:04:29 GMT -5
In my study I was led to believe 1820-30 too. That's interesting about that sermon, although it's still unbiblical. I have seen a copy of the sermon, its a very hard read. The only major difference between that and modern pre tribulation rapture, is that the old sermon talks about 3 1/2 yrs of trib, while modern eschatology says 7 yrs. I can't see it as unbiblical, and in fact I challenge you to prove it as unbiblical. Because if you can do this you are far better than the majority of scholars that are against it.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 26, 2006 20:26:39 GMT -5
For those who are pre-trib. how would you defend your view Scripturally that the rapture is separated chronologically from the visible physical return of Jesus?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 26, 2006 20:34:47 GMT -5
I don't understand how anyone can say that there is no 'rapture.' Now as far as "when" I see how someone could question it.
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Post by Rodgers on Jan 31, 2006 20:58:38 GMT -5
2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
The order of the passage goes as such; the falling away, man of sin being revealed and then the return of our Lord. If I am not mistaken the Pre-trib people say that the rapture will happen and then the man of sin will come and then Jesus comes again for the thrid time. The first being 200 years ago the second being the rapture and the third being the Million year reign. Three comings of the Lord? Maybe but at leaste not in the order they put it all. I will stick with two though after the falling away, and man of sin coming, as Paul states it.
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Post by Gabriele on Feb 1, 2006 0:21:36 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
See, the *last trump*, it is finished
This will be happen short before Christ is touching the ground/earth again by HIS 2nd coming.
And HE first called the dead out of their graves and not the living saints first. This stays already against the teaching of a rapture which would lift up the living first.
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Post by Gabriele on Feb 1, 2006 0:33:25 GMT -5
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." This is all at the moment, before Christ set foot on the mount. And when you read it carefully, there is nothing between, no snatching away before time.
And dont confuse tribulation/persecution with the WRATH which will come after HIS people are all with the Lord. The wrath is reserved for the wicked, which did not honor God/Christ in and with their life [time].
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Post by bullhornbob on Feb 1, 2006 1:02:44 GMT -5
If I may comment here:
It is not for us to know the times or the seasons, but the command from Christ is to be ready at all times. Only the Father knows, and that will not change.
I would not waste too much time trying to figure out which veiw is accurate, as this has gone on for generations and none have been able to conclude that one theory is more accurate above another.
Jesus also said, "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" I also remember Paul saying "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Soundoff!
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Post by tomah on Feb 1, 2006 12:48:20 GMT -5
Here is the study I did for a bible class:
For those of you who are reading this and have been led to believe that this is a scriptural doctrine, please read on. I write as always with the aim that it will be profitable both to the glory of God and the edification of His people. Always seek truth and forget prejudice.
(Nevertheless, as long as your name is written in the Lambs book of Life, you’ll be ready to meet Almighty God which we all must admit is the most important issue).
What is the Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime prior to the beginning of the tribulation period. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to Heaven with the Church. Apparently 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, gives us a clear description of the rapture: "the dead in Christ will rise, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord." However, we will see if this is the case a little later on.
Where did it come from?
This question isn’t so important, but I’ll cover it briefly anyway. A Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza wrote a book in 1790 called, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty.” For some reason the Rev. Edward Irving, a presbyter of the Church of Scotland, translated it to English in 1826. The error never really took off until 1830, when it gathered momentum due to a fifteen year old girl named Margaret MacDonald who had a vision which matched the teaching (some have said that the vision didn’t match the teaching of the rapture. That may be so, but it’s effect was still the same, it popularised the teaching). One teacher of the error was a Plymouth Brethren man named J. N. Darby. Darby took the teaching to America with him and there one of his students was a lawyer called Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921). In 1909, Scofield published Bible reference notes, distributed them far and wide and they are found now in what is known as “The Scofield Reference Bible.”
What I want to do is primarily use the scriptures that the ‘rapturists’ use in defence of their belief, and show clearly how the passage in context does not support the teaching, but rather flies in the face of it.
1) Firstly we have Matt 24:36-41
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK THEM all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.”
This is one of the most referred to passages to support the rapture. It is said that those who are ‘taken’ are Christians. Hence, when Christ comes in the air before the tribulation, the Christian will be ‘taken up’ and the ungodly will be left.
But is that what the passage is teaching? First of all it is assumption to say that this event spoken of precedes the tribulation period. Secondly, is it really the Christian that is ‘taken’? Look at the passage carefully and you will see the primary parallel between the return of Christ and the days of Noah are NOT the fact that everyone will be eating and drinking and marrying. This goes on throughout EVERY age. What Christ means here is that everything will be going on as normal. The reason for the parallel with Noah’s day in particular is because of who was taken away and who was left. Read it again. Who did the flood take away? The UNGODLY. Who was left? Righteous Noah and his family. So shall it be when Christ returns. The ungodly will be taken first. So this passage in actual fact does not support the rapture event at all.
Still think that Christians are taken and ungodly left? Let’s look at another passage.
2) Matt 13:24-30 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, GATHER YE TOGETHER FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Jesus’ interpretation – v37-43 “He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man THE FIELD IS THE WORLD; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. THEN shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
In this passage Jesus teaches very clearly about the basic order of events that will surround his return. He will send forth his angels to gather the tares (ungodly) FIRST. They are going to GATHER OUT the ungodly and cast them into hell and THEN the righteous will remain and shine forth as the sun. This passage therefore supports what is taught in Matt 24.
3) And another just to make sure. Matt 13:47-50 - “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED FROM AMONG THE JUST, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
The same thing is happening according to this parable. The wicked are going to be cut off from among the just. Not the other way around.
4) Next we’ll turn to the most well known of all passages which rapturists use to defend what they believe.
1 Thess 4:16-17 – “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, TO MEET THE LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
For those who believe in the ‘silent’ rapture, take a look at some of the words used to describe this particular event. We have the Lord descending with a SHOUT, the VOICE of the archangel and the TRUMP of God. Is it just me or is that a very loud passage of scripture? I find it odd how these end-time movies like the ‘Left Behind’ series by Tim LaHaye, depict the people of God disappearing off the face of the earth, with no warning or commotion or fuss. Those who are left don’t know where the others have gone except a minority who have knowledge of the scriptures. It just doesn’t seem to tally with this passage, which they say supports the doctrine more vividly than any other.
I have capitalized the phrase ‘to meet the Lord’ because I want to look at it in greater detail. The Greek wording here is found in two other places. I want to look at just one of them. Acts 28:13-16 - “And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so WE WENT TOWARD ROME. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, THEY CAME TO MEET US as far as Appiiforum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. AND WHEN WE CAME TO ROME, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.”
In this passage we have Paul and company travelling towards Rome. The record tells us that the Christians in Rome heard about it and began travelling towards Paul TO MEET THEM (like we rise to meet the Lord in the air) and what happened? They RETURNED with Paul and the others just like we will return to the earth with the Lord. It’s very clear and simple in the grammar that this is the intended meaning of the portion in 1 Thess 4.
5) Then lets look at 1 Cor 15:51-54 – “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
It is clear that the event spoken of here, is the same of that in 1 Thess 4 and those who believe and teach the rapture believe also that this is so. But if this is true (which it is) then they have a problem. Notice the phrase ‘at the last trump’. It is clear from this that there must be other trumps preceding this one because this is the LAST trump. Scripture only knows of ONE series of ‘trumps’ and they are recorded for us in the chapters Revelation 8-11. The FIRST trump is during the tribulation period and so the other six continue after that.
Do you see the problem? The rapturists say that the event of 1 Corinthians 15 which happens at the LAST trump, is just prior to the tribulation, but the bible says that even the FIRST trump is DURING the tribulation. So how can something that is to happen at the last trump, happen before the first trump?? Impossible! The only explanation they can give is that it is from a different series of trumps. But this is clutching at straws as the bible only teaches of one series of seven trumps.
6) Then finally, just for a text that clearly refutes the rapture event taking place before the tribulation, look at 2 Thess 2:3-4 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
In this passage, Paul encourages the believers to stay faithful because the return of Christ is ‘at hand’. However, he warns that certain events will take place prior to the Lords return, one of them being that there will be a great falling away and antichrist will be revealed. Now the scripture is clear on the teaching of WHEN the antichrist will appear. Everyone (including rapturists) know that antichrist will appear DURING the tribulation. But here it says ‘that day’ (Christ’s return) WILL NOT COME UNTIL ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED. What could be more clear than that?
From this short study of the word of God, I believe that it is abundantly clear that there is no room in scripture for a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints.
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Billy
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by Billy on Feb 7, 2006 11:41:10 GMT -5
If I may comment here: It is not for us to know the times or the seasons, but the command from Christ is to be ready at all times. Only the Father knows, and that will not change. I would not waste too much time trying to figure out which veiw is accurate, as this has gone on for generations and none have been able to conclude that one theory is more accurate above another. Jesus also said, "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" I also remember Paul saying "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Soundoff! Amen!! Bullhornbob you said it perfectly.
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Post by tomah on Feb 7, 2006 18:21:54 GMT -5
Fair enough, but the simple fact is that God has revealed sure signs and certain marks about what is going to happen before Christ comes and obviously if He has revealed such things then He wants us to know about them. It would be sinful of us to wilfully neglect them.
I don't know very much about the return of Christ, but it's not something that I am content with.
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Post by HDmatt on Feb 10, 2006 20:03:30 GMT -5
I am completely convinced of a pre tribulation rapture(gathering away) but will take just a little note finding to make a written statement. Hold that thought! ha
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