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Post by SlowBro on Mar 20, 2006 9:49:46 GMT -5
Before I begin, let me tell you that I am SOLIDLY convinced we should use the Law in evangelism. I am a huge fan of Living Waters and even got to do a one2one last night, going through each commandment slowly and methodically, demonstrating the need for the savior.
But I also try to be a good Berean. "...test everything; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21 ESV)
I used to belong to a Dallas Theological Seminary church, now in a Reformed church. The DTS churches say that one can believe but not show any fruit; it is optional. The Reformed churches say fruit is always the result of a legitimate salvation (I think they are right). If you really believe Jesus died for YOUR sins, you will love and obey Him. Real belief generates real fruit.
The DTS people say that the parable of the soils is about three believers and one unbeliever, while the Reformed churches and Ray Comfort say that the soils are three false converts and only one believer.
While I want to believe Ray, I looked at the Luke 8 version of the story, particularly the rocky ground: "these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away." (verse 13 ESV)
The troubling word there is "believe." If one really believes aren't they a believer?
I thought perhaps the greek word (pisteuo) was a simple belief, not really believing. But it is the same word used in James 2:23: "...Abraham believed God..." (KJV) (I used the Strong's on BlueLetterBible.com to study the greek.)
Help?
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 20, 2006 10:36:15 GMT -5
The problem is that they received the word with "joy," when they should have received it with brokeness. Most likely they didn't repent and believe. It obviously wasn't a saving "belief" or faith, otherwise they would have persevered to the end. The fact that they fell away in a time of testing shows that they may have come to Christ for the wrong reason as well...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 20, 2006 11:10:44 GMT -5
I may be making it too simple, but it seems they believed for a time and then fell away.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 20, 2006 11:25:28 GMT -5
The strongs number for that word 'believe' is G4100 it is used 250 times.
It is also the same word used in this verse:
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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Post by Grant on Mar 20, 2006 11:32:33 GMT -5
Winkie Pratney does a (imho) better teaching on this, in the audios I made available on another thread a month or two ago. It was back in 1974 and called True and False Conversion as well.
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Post by tomah on Mar 20, 2006 13:23:03 GMT -5
Before I begin, let me tell you that I am SOLIDLY convinced we should use the Law in evangelism. I am a huge fan of Living Waters and even got to do a one2one last night, going through each commandment slowly and methodically, demonstrating the need for the savior. But I also try to be a good Berean. "...test everything; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21 ESV) I used to belong to a Dallas Theological Seminary church, now in a Reformed church. The DTS churches say that one can believe but not show any fruit; it is optional. The Reformed churches say fruit is always the result of a legitimate salvation (I think they are right). If you really believe Jesus died for YOUR sins, you will love and obey Him. Real belief generates real fruit. The DTS people say that the parable of the soils is about three believers and one unbeliever, while the Reformed churches and Ray Comfort say that the soils are three false converts and only one believer. While I want to believe Ray, I looked at the Luke 8 version of the story, particularly the rocky ground: "these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away." (verse 13 ESV) The troubling word there is "believe." If one really believes aren't they a believer? I thought perhaps the greek word (pisteuo) was a simple belief, not really believing. But it is the same word used in James 2:23: "...Abraham believed God..." (KJV) (I used the Strong's on BlueLetterBible.com to study the greek.) Help? They merely appear to believe.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 20, 2006 15:05:56 GMT -5
The analogy that I like to use in the Open Air when describing faith is this: real saving faith perseveres to the end. Putting your faith in Jesus Christ is not like the AOL free trial offer. You don't give Jesus a try for 45 days and then when it comes time to pay, give it up. People must understand that being a CHristian isn't about having an easy life. People must know that for those who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus (all true Christians), they will suffer (1 Tim 3:12). People must count the cost before they "believe." They must know that Grace isn't as free as it may seem. It might cost them their whole lives! And if they aren't willing to give everything up for the sake of Christ...well, they might "believe," but they aren't saved...that is for sure. Luke 8:13 makes it clear, "...but in the time of testing they fall away (from their "belief")."
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 20, 2006 15:41:03 GMT -5
I think the four soils describe both false converts and people who genuinely get saved and then draw back unto perdition. I think the scriptures describe both. Some scriptures are describing false converts and others are describing those who were saved but lost their salvation through disobedience and sin.
The first is an unbeliever, the second is a false convert, the third is a true Christian who loses his salvation by backsliding, and the fourth is a Christian who remains obedient and fruitful.
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 20, 2006 17:20:28 GMT -5
I personally don't believe the parable of the sower is a parable about true and false conversion. I believe the parable is teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation. Here's something I posted on another post concerning this.
This is the Lord's interpretation of the parable of the sower in Luke 8. You can read the parable in verses 1-8. Starting in verse 11 Jesus explains the meaning of the parable:
"11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
According to verse 13 it is possible to believe temporarily.
"Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
Now the question surrounds the meaning of believe in this passage. Does it denote true saving faith or a "believing" which falls short of true saving faith?
In the Scriptures it can mean both. Obviously believe (Gk. pisteuo) can mean genuine faith, but can it mean a faith that falls short of true fatih? Yes, John 2:23-25 & James 2:19 are examples of this kind of "faith". So if it can go either way how can we determine the meaning in Luke 8?
We must look at the context to capture the precise meaning here. The use of believe in verse 12 establishes it's meaning in this parable.
"Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."
The kind of belief here is clearly true saving faith. There is no warrant for changing the meaning of believe in verse 13. According to the context of the parable those who "believe for a while" but "fall away" are genuine believers that lose their salvation.
In contrast those who produce a crop are those who hear the word, retain it, and persevere.
"But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop"
Those who hear the word must retain it or they will lose it.
I would contend that the parable of the sower is not a parable of "true and false conversion" as many have thought. Rather it's a parable showing that salvation can be lost.
Note: I would like to say that I believe in true and false conversion. I just think that some of the passages used are misused while others can be used consistently. For example 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Steve
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 21, 2006 2:48:11 GMT -5
I personally don't believe the parable of the sower is a parable about true and false conversion. I believe the parable is teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation. Here's something I posted on another post concerning this. Oh joy, yet another view on this parable :-) DTS: You cannot lose your salvation, three out of four are genuine. Reformed/Ray: You cannot lose your salvation, three out of four are false. And your view. The DTS view /can/ make sense if you consider that a plant grew up. A dead plant is still a plant. Note: I would like to say that I believe in true and false conversion. I just think that some of the passages used are misused while others can be used consistently. For example 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." Your view is refreshing. I'm 100% certain there are true and false converts BECAUSE I WAS ONE. I'm not quite ready to give up the Reformed/Ray interpretation but I'll weigh what you said.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 21, 2006 2:49:22 GMT -5
The problem is that they received the word with "joy," when they should have received it with brokeness. Most likely they didn't repent and believe. It obviously wasn't a saving "belief" or faith, otherwise they would have persevered to the end. The fact that they fell away in a time of testing shows that they may have come to Christ for the wrong reason as well... I think that's everything Ray would say, and yet that word believe still bugs me.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 21, 2006 2:56:56 GMT -5
Luke 8:13 makes it clear, "...but in the time of testing they fall away (from their "belief")." I hear ya, but I thought the Bible's idea of belief is a total trusting, much different than the mental ascent we hold to today. That's the kind of belief it seems that verse says. Perhaps it's like a three-year old who really believes there is a Santa but in a time of testing (staying up late to watch for him but sees daddy, hears from her school mates about the fable) falls away. This is tough to quantify, for in my mind I equate that kind of belief to be saving belief. And the DTS guys are vocal about repentance not being a part of salvation, with admittedly strong support for their position. Took me a year to think through why they're probably wrong. Still wrestling with it. Could you guys please pray for a theological clarity of mind? All this doctrinal second-guessing keeps me concerned about witnessing, and Satan would *love* it if I were confused for the rest of my life so long as I was too confused to witness.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Mar 21, 2006 3:54:45 GMT -5
messengermicah wrote:
Yeah, I think this is this is the view I am leaning towards currently. It makes the most sense. I think we all agree that the only one who is definitely saved is the fourth. What really makes me think though is that the common ground is the uhh.. ground (soil condition). That coulod be the real key to whether or not a profession of faith will "stick".
Chris, if anyone is teaching that repentance is not needed in order to be saved I would say get out of there quick.
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Post by Grant on Mar 21, 2006 11:17:01 GMT -5
here's my 2 cents... The soil is the heart of the person and the condition of their hearts is symbolic in how they received the seed, which is the Word of GOD. Now starting with the last of the four, we can see what a definite true convert is... "heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast." We know soil needs to be tender, not hard, to receive seed. We also know it must be high in nutrients and watered in order to grow. This I believe is the workings of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the believer, bringing them to maturity and purity. Now lets look at the other hearts. The first is hard, in the walkway of traffic. The heart is so hard, lacking repentance and humblenss, that the Word can't even be received into it, leaving it open for deception and blindness to the truth to which Satan comes and takes it away (birds). The next heart is a thin layer of good soil on top of a rocky base, known as stony or rocky soil. This thin layer of soil on top receives the seed gladly. The roots spread out but without depth they will die (as explained). This depth comes from tilled soil, a broken and contrite heart, a heart that comes in repentance. Without that depth of root one can't endure the heat of the sun, which is light... GOD's own testing on our souls. The next heart is in soil that is infested with the worries and pleasures of this world. This heart came in repentance but wasn't willing to fully submit to the LORDship of Jesus Christ, foresaking the worldliness of life. This heart is unable to grow in maturity due to this (being a "luke warm" christian). If anyone would kindly analyze my explanation so I can see the holes or incorrectness of it, please know I'm eager to resolve the meaning since Jesus showed much concern that we better know its meaning. Matt 10:22 Matt 3:8,10 GOD bless you all.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 21, 2006 11:34:56 GMT -5
here's my 2 cents... The soil is the heart of the person and the condition of their hearts is symbolic in how they received the seed, which is the Word of GOD. Now starting with the last of the four, we can see what a definite true convert is... "heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast." We know soil needs to be tender, not hard, to receive seed. We also know it must be high in nutrients and watered in order to grow. This I believe is the workings of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the believer, bringing them to maturity and purity. Now lets look at the other hearts. The first is hard, in the walkway of traffic. The heart is so hard, lacking repentance and humblenss, that the Word can't even be received into it, leaving it open for deception and blindness to the truth to which Satan comes and takes it away (birds). The next heart is a thin layer of good soil on top of a rocky base, known as stony or rocky soil. This thin layer of soil on top receives the seed gladly. The roots spread out but without depth they will die (as explained). This depth comes from tilled soil, a broken and contrite heart, a heart that comes in repentance. Without that depth of root one can't endure the heat of the sun, which is light... GOD's own testing on our souls. The next heart is in soil that is infested with the worries and pleasures of this world. This heart came in repentance but wasn't willing to fully submit to the LORDship of Jesus Christ, foresaking the worldliness of life. This heart is unable to grow in maturity due to this (being a "luke warm" christian). Amen...that's good stuff brother. I really don't have anything to correct in it, but would just add this: when the testing comes to show the person that they truly ARE NOT a Christian, it comes to show that person that they are not a Christian. God knows the results of the test before the test came and knows the person truly isn't a Christian. He is obviously just trying to awaken that person to their true state. FOr anyone who calls themself a Christian, I am challenged to ask them, "What do you do when trials, tribulation and temptation come?" Those are the tests to see if you really truly have saving faith or not...
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 21, 2006 15:32:50 GMT -5
What do you guys think of this reasoning: "According to verse 13 it is possible to believe temporarily.
"Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
Now the question surrounds the meaning of believe in this passage. Does it denote true saving faith or a "believing" which falls short of true saving faith?
In the Scriptures it can mean both. Obviously believe (Gk. pisteuo) can mean genuine faith, but can it mean a faith that falls short of true fatih? Yes, John 2:23-25 & James 2:19 are examples of this kind of "faith". So if it can go either way how can we determine the meaning in Luke 8?
We must look at the context to capture the precise meaning here. The use of believe in verse 12 establishes it's meaning in this parable.
"Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."
The kind of belief here is clearly true saving faith. There is no warrant for changing the meaning of believe in verse 13. According to the context of the parable those who "believe for a while" but "fall away" are genuine believers that lose their salvation." This convinces me. I say this not because I thought of it, but because I read this interpretation in Robert Shank's Life In The Son. It uses the context very powerfully and seems to me to seal the deal here.
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Post by Grant on Mar 21, 2006 16:03:27 GMT -5
Personally, I do believe that one can lose their salvation... which is why I gave a couple passages at the end: Matt 10:22 and Matt 3:8,10.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 21, 2006 17:05:21 GMT -5
Chris, if anyone is teaching that repentance is not needed in order to be saved I would say get out of there quick. Oh I'm gone, buddy! I'm in a Reformed church now. They have some plausible explainations for this belief, caused me to really examine it for a year.
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Post by SlowBro on Mar 22, 2006 6:52:30 GMT -5
Boy, lots to chew on here. You guys have some kewl points. Gotta think about them for a while.
Thanks for your commitment to sound doctrine!
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Post by ejuliot on Mar 22, 2006 16:25:58 GMT -5
Just a little side note on the word believe it is the same greek word used in James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
Devils believe in God, but they are not saved.
Read all of James chapter 2 for context and tell me what you think.
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 22, 2006 17:40:47 GMT -5
ejuliot, I kinda mentioned that here: "Now the question surrounds the meaning of believe in this passage. Does it denote true saving faith or a "believing" which falls short of true saving faith?
In the Scriptures it can mean both. Obviously believe (Gk. pisteuo) can mean genuine faith, but can it mean a faith that falls short of true fatih? Yes, John 2:23-25 & James 2:19 are examples of this kind of "faith". So if it can go either way how can we determine the meaning in Luke 8?
We must look at the context to capture the precise meaning here. The use of believe in verse 12 establishes it's meaning in this parable." I think that is why this view is a good view. It interprets the word believe by the context of the parable. Steve
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Post by SlowBro on Apr 4, 2006 18:52:25 GMT -5
Read all of James chapter 2 for context and tell me what you think. I have, but that word that is used for the devils is also used for Abraham! So it's tough to argue that view with the original greek because it cuts both ways. Anyway the DTS guys have their own spin on James that I'm finding hard to deny. Thanks everyone for your responses, it might be a while before I understand what this scripture is really saying; I'll keep all of your thoughts in mind.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 4, 2006 23:00:18 GMT -5
I believe Jesus said "He who endures to end shall be saved" in Matthew 10:22, and again when He warns the churches (all of us) in His amazingly pointed letter in Rev Chapters 2 and 3, specifically to the point of enduring in the letter to Smyrna.
The parable of the sowers is the one Jesus said unlocks all the others, so it must be read and understood properly. Clearly enduring to the end is critical. We see how cares of the world are like weeds choking it out. This is believer who looses their first love and grows lukewarm. If this persists it is fatal. The man who Jesus cast all the demons out of was grateful for being delivered from demons, but did not necessarily show a repentent sorrow for his sins, but he certainly believed in Jesus.
Jesus said from His own lips that the second and third did believ for awhile. If you asked someone who didn't already have a view on whether a person could believe and then fall away, they would say these two believed for a awhile, then fell away. Notice that two of the three eventaually fell away, and 3/4 of the seed never bore fruit. Narrow is the way which leads to life and few find it. My Mother and Brothers are these that do the will of the Father.
It is critical we see all the passages that clear take about great apostacy in the last days, therefore not be shocked to see so much around us. Be not deceived, what a man soweth, so shall he reap.... Be careful not to get carried away by your own lusts and desires to spiritual death my brethren was James message in 1:12-16. Paul warns Timothy to the possible fate of falling away and then names names of those who have (Hymenaeous & Alexander in 1 Tim 1:19-20, young believer in 3:6 and widows in verses 5:11-14). Also take a god read of 1 Tim 4:1-2 which says the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrine of devils. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
Paul most certainly said that Spirit expressly spoke of this happening. Not that it might, but that it was a sure thing. Can anyone say that one could fall away from something they never had to begin with? Could a person get out of a car, if they were not in one? Absolutely not. Now, re-read the parable fo the sower with the mind that some will depart from the faith, or become apostate, and see if it doesn't clear up the parable.
This is why we need to not only use the law in evangelism, but come along side them and disciple them, and all the while warn them as Paul did, as Peter did, as James did, as Jesus did, as Jude did, as John did, to not fall away, but hold fast to their faith, and get into God's Word deeply and immediately (grow roots).
This has been something that I was not originally taught in my typical denominational church, but I couldn't argue with God's clear Word on the fact that one can fall away and apostate. If this were not true the warnings would be foolishness and unwarranted.
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Post by OAOfan on Apr 7, 2006 0:05:49 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, is Ray reformed/calvinistic??? I was always under the impression that his beliefs lined up with "Calvary Chapel" [3-pointers] since he was commissioned under them...and what about Kirk? I almost sure Friel is reformed...anyone know about these guys theologically???
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 7, 2006 18:58:56 GMT -5
Calvary Chapel is a 3-pointer?! I have grown up in calvary Chapel and I never knew that! I guess you learn something new everyday!
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Post by OAOfan on Apr 7, 2006 22:44:54 GMT -5
Ejuliot, here is an excerpt from "What Calvary Chapel Teaches" by Larry Taylor...you can find the whole thing here: www3.calvarychapel.com/library/taylor-larry/text/wcct.htm ...In addition, we reject "5-point Calvinism". For a deeper understanding of what Calvinism is, see my book Calvinism versus Arminianism, but for our purposes here, suffice it to say that Calvary Chapel rejects two of the five points of five point Calvinism. First, Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect", not for the sins of the entire world. At Calvary Chapel, we believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all the sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and savior and be born again. Strict five point Calvinists believe that only the elect can be saved and that God has elected others to spend eternity in hell. Secondly, we reject the Calvinistic teaching called "irresistible grace", which is the belief that man cannot, even if he wants to, resist the wooing and calling of God to salvation. Instead, at Calvary Chapel we believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so. Therefore, those who hold to five point Calvinism are outside of the borders of what defines Calvary Chapel." There you go...so, this is what I've determined about Ray's theology: pre-trib, pre-mil, evidential apologist, 3-pointer (I think!), main two influences are Spurgeon and Finney, etc. If anyone else knows, let me know...
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 8, 2006 12:00:02 GMT -5
Ejuliot, here is an excerpt from "What Calvary Chapel Teaches" by Larry Taylor...you can find the whole thing here: www3.calvarychapel.com/library/taylor-larry/text/wcct.htm ...In addition, we reject "5-point Calvinism". For a deeper understanding of what Calvinism is, see my book Calvinism versus Arminianism, but for our purposes here, suffice it to say that Calvary Chapel rejects two of the five points of five point Calvinism. First, Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the Cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect", not for the sins of the entire world. At Calvary Chapel, we believe that Jesus died on the Cross for all the sins of all people, and that anyone who wants to can accept Him as Lord and savior and be born again. Strict five point Calvinists believe that only the elect can be saved and that God has elected others to spend eternity in hell. Secondly, we reject the Calvinistic teaching called "irresistible grace", which is the belief that man cannot, even if he wants to, resist the wooing and calling of God to salvation. Instead, at Calvary Chapel we believe that man has a free will and he can resist the call of God if he chooses to do so. Therefore, those who hold to five point Calvinism are outside of the borders of what defines Calvary Chapel." There you go...so, this is what I've determined about Ray's theology: pre-trib, pre-mil, evidential apologist, 3-pointer (I think!), main two influences are Spurgeon and Finney, etc. If anyone else knows, let me know... That is really intersting! I never realized doctrinally where Calvary stood and many times I wondered. Thank you so much!
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 9, 2006 0:03:39 GMT -5
Chuck Smith said he tried to merge Calvinsim and Arminianism and was at a loss and went to paryer and God said :I never asked you too".
The scriptures must be true. We should believe them and follow and obey Jesus Christ. I never refer to myself other than a follower of Christ. I also take the Bible as fact. I let it speak for itself, and try not to have someone else interpret it, but the Holy Spirit.
Jesus says He offers living water freely to all who will, I believe He is sincere. He says we must endure to the end to be saved, so I'll just endure as He says. He says if we are lukewarm, He will spit us out of His mouth, so I'd rather not see what He was meant.
Just obey what the word says and strive to enter in the narrow gate, aslways remembering that Jesus became the author of eternal life for all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9), so I recommend obeying Him.
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