|
Post by Steve Noel on Mar 20, 2006 18:51:04 GMT -5
With all the debates we're in here I thought that I'd ask some simple question:
Is our practical life / ministry affected by our theology?
What's the practical significance of being Arminian / Calvinist?
When it comes to practice does it really matter if we're Arminian / Calvinistic?
For example: Calvinism believes that those who turn away from the faith were never saved. Arminians believe that they were saved, but have lost their salvation. Does it matter practically? We both believe that they need to get saved. So, is it worth debating over?
Does our theology affect our view of evangelism, holiness, God, etc...?
Is our practical life / ministry consistent with our theological commitments?
For example: Jesse has made the point in the past that When Calvinists' preach the preach like Arminians. Rick B has said that when Arminians pray they pray like Calvinists'. Are we inconsistent in the application of our theology. Does it only work on paper, but not in practical life / ministry?
I'm interested to hear thoughts from both sides. If you're going to show a negative affect of Calvinism / Arminianism, then please do so in a way that is fair and sincere. Try to avoid exaggerated caricatures that don't really represent the opposing viewpoint.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 20, 2006 19:03:34 GMT -5
That's an EXCELLENT question brother! If some of my reformed brethren read this i could be excommunicated but going by history brother, it doesn't really make sense to say that it does make much of a difference. Without going into detail, a simple example would be Whitefield and Wesley.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Noel on Mar 20, 2006 21:05:51 GMT -5
Here's a scenario: A young Christian girl is on her way home from school one day when she gets kidnapped. She's taken to an abondoned house and is brutally raped and murdered. Your now counseling the family who asks the question why did this happend to her.
If you're a consistent Calvinist do you have to say that it was decreed by God? The Calvinist cannot say that God allowed it to happen because their view of sovereignty leaves no room for such language. Is this a weakness of Calvinism?
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 20, 2006 21:12:52 GMT -5
Depends whether the family is Christian or not. All things don't work together for good for everyone, only those that 'love' God.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Noel on Mar 20, 2006 21:15:43 GMT -5
Armen,
Let's say the family is a Christian family. Do you have to conclude that God decreed this to happen? Can you say that this is the will of God? In Calvinism how is God not ultimately responsible for the evil in the world? Doesn't determinism demand that God determined this should happen?
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 20, 2006 21:41:43 GMT -5
Well I'm not very knowledgable in the area of God's decrees and His soverignity so i'm not sure. However, the bible would indicate that on a 'national' level God does stir the hearts of evil men to war against His people in order for them to repent and cry to God for His intervention, etc. The case is repeated in Judges over and over again.
Who is to blame for the blood that may be shed innocently in such cases? Obviously not God.
I haven't decided whether there is a such a thing as God's Perfect Will and God's Permissive Will. Such an event would come under His Permissive Will (if that is scriptural).
However, no matter what the case may be, God will ultimately get the glory out of the situation, and this is what all Christians must realise and submit to, especially in such situations as the case you've mentioned.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Mar 20, 2006 21:44:02 GMT -5
As an official "Calminian", I would have to declare that God, in His sovereignty allowed the free will for this to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Noel on Mar 21, 2006 15:23:28 GMT -5
RevK,
I have to agree that God allows evil things to happen. As a "Calminian" (LOL) I guess you can get away with that. The 5-point Calvinist though cannot. Their view of sovereignty is determinism. This is one of the great weaknesses of Calvinism. The only consistent conclusion for a Calvinist is to say God determined the kidnapping, rape, and murder and take refuge in mystery. The Calvinist can't get God "off the hook" because of thier deterministic view of sovereignty. This is why I say that the debate is not over whether God is sovereign or not. The issue is how does a God of holy love express his sovereignty. If the answer is Calvin's - Augustine's determinism, then God is ultimately responsible for all things, even evil. This is where most Calvinist's squirm. I challenge the Calvinist to turn their arguments on themselves here. Is God sovereign or not? Can anything happen that is outside of his will?
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 21, 2006 16:17:22 GMT -5
What happened to Job? Did God make the devil desire to bring everything upon Job that happened or did he permit it? Because God permitted it then obviously God willed it to happen did He not? The question isn't so much did God determine it to happen? But rather will God ultimately receive the glory out of it? Which of course I believe He does. Even out of rape, God will get the glory. As an Arminian, can you say that God permitted a rape for his own glory?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Mar 21, 2006 16:30:49 GMT -5
People are theoretical and practical in theology, most times not matching themselves. This can be seen when you ask a Calvinist to preach the full council of GOD to an open-air crowd... dare they be told that many of them were not selected to be saved and have no chance whatsoever? Of course not, they simply quote (or mis-quote in their eyes) John 3:16, in the hopes nobody knows the difference.
Now, here's a real example that is similar to what Steve used:
I have a close sister in Christ who was only 18, virgin, and the most humblist and loving person. She was brutally raped a couple years ago, still today having nightmares many nights a week. I dare you to tell her that she is either not of the elect or GOD predestined this for His glory. And if you do, you better run!
Saints, we can know theology and have it all correct, but if we don't know the Person of GOD then its all in vain. If we go out to save souls without knowing Him who sent us, then we are liers and the truth is not in us. If we preach and hold back the fullness of who He is, then we're ashamed of Him.
I wont preach Him in part, but the fullness of His council.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 7:58:29 GMT -5
That is a very sad story brother, and I pray this comes across in the most loving manner, but I believe God before I take into account her reaction to this event. Rom 8:28-29 tells me that EVERYTHING that happens to a believer (good and bad and everything inbetween), happens for our good to "conform us to the image of His Son" thereby, God receives the glory in our lives. It must be accepted, whether we understand it or not.
By the way, when an Arminian get's down to pray before he goes out to preach, does he say, "Lord, I know that thou hast granted to all mankind 'Prevenient Grace', therefore I ask that thou wouldst grant me the homiletical skill to convince these people that they need Christ..."??
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Mar 22, 2006 8:29:21 GMT -5
Armen,
Paul prayed similiar to that in Ephesians 6:19-20 and Colossians 4:2-3.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 9:00:18 GMT -5
Praying for boldness/courage and for opportunities to preach, is not praying for 'skill'. If it is up to you to persuade men, then you need the "enticing words of mans wisdom" which of course Paul said he didn't speak with.
With Prevenient Grace, the Holy Spirit is already working on the everyone, so why pray for the power of the Holy Ghost to attend the preaching if all the person needs is to be persuaded?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Mar 22, 2006 9:26:03 GMT -5
That is a very sad story brother, and I pray this comes across in the most loving manner, but I believe God before I take into account her reaction to this event. Rom 8:28-29 tells me that EVERYTHING that happens to a believer (good and bad and everything inbetween), happens for our good to "conform us to the image of His Son" thereby, God receives the glory in our lives. It must be accepted, whether we understand it or not. By the way, when an Arminian get's down to pray before he goes out to preach, does he say, "Lord, I know that thou hast granted to all mankind 'Prevenient Grace', therefore I ask that thou wouldst grant me the homiletical skill to convince these people that they need Christ..."?? Armen, Rom 8:28 does not say He makes or lets things happen for His glory, though I know that can be the case. But it says "God causes all things to work together for good" which establishes His power to even use the circumstances of evil for His glory. He does not MAKE sin, we are the "inventors of sin", but GOD can mold people into His likeness through their perceverance of circumstances such as these. That is biblical, that is logical, that is His character.
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Fuller on Mar 22, 2006 22:24:12 GMT -5
People are theoretical and practical in theology, most times not matching themselves. This can be seen when you ask a Calvinist to preach the full council of GOD to an open-air crowd... dare they be told that many of them were not selected to be saved and have no chance whatsoever? Of course not, they simply quote (or mis-quote in their eyes) John 3:16, in the hopes nobody knows the difference. It is sad that people don't invest the time to learn how to properly preach what they believe. Such would be the case if a student of fire management were to get in the heat of fighting a fire and aim the hose in the wrong place. A learned fireman should never put others in grave danger because he has only a head full of knowledge and no practical experience in fighting fires. The same is true for an open air preacher, he should never preach the ordo salutis (order of salvation) if he cannot properly communicate how a sinner is saved. Woe to us if we lead men astray! We are hypocrites and mere actors if we claim to believe the doctrines of grace, but preach otherwise! Same with the armenian... if he believes there is no bondage of the will he should preach thoroughly from the depths of his beliefs! Amen, Grant, I thank you for pointing this out!
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 0:29:33 GMT -5
Armen,
In Ephesians 6:19-20 and Colossians 4:3-4 I see that Paul is praying for more than just boldness or opportunity. He is praying for "utterance" and to "make it manifest as he ought to speak". I see that he is clearly asking for skill in presenting the message. Proverbs 11:30 says "He that winneth souls is wise." We are to pray for wisdom to win souls because it requires wisdom or skill. When I speak of skill or wisdom I am referring to choice of words.
It is up to us to persuade men. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we PERSUADE men..." 2 Corinthians 5:11.
|
|
|
Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 13:47:57 GMT -5
This is one of the great weaknesses of Calvinism. The only consistent conclusion for a Calvinist is to say God determined the kidnapping, rape, and murder and take refuge in mystery. The Calvinist can't get God "off the hook" because of thier deterministic view of sovereignty. This is why I say that the debate is not over whether God is sovereign or not. The issue is how does a God of holy love express his sovereignty. If the answer is Calvin's - Augustine's determinism, then God is ultimately responsible for all things, even evil. This is where most Calvinist's squirm. I challenge the Calvinist to turn their arguments on themselves here. Is God sovereign or not? Can anything happen that is outside of his will? This borders on the heckler's claim - if God is a good God, and in control of everything, why do bad things happen to good people? To which we say - whoever said YOU were good? Whoever said we deserve anything but an eternity in hell? How would God being a dictator bring glory to Himself? Sovereignty of God doesn't speak so much to a spiritual dictatorship, but a working and power of God that is beyond our finite minds. He doesn't cause evil or tempt to evil as James points out in the first chapter of his book, but he does and can use evil and sin to bring himself glory. Can we understand this? Oftentimes, no. I know women who have had abortions (some professing to be Christians) who now help other women heal from the same sin. Is God glorified? Yes. Did he MAKE these women have an aobrtion so he could be glorifed? NO!!! But the awesome thing to see is that if we look back on our life of sin, before being soundly saved, it almost has the APPEARANCE that God directed our paths, and caused things to happen, because they SO worked out for His good, and ours. But did He? No. But it looks like it in retrospect. That is the balance I think between man's ability to choose, and responsibility to obey, and God's sovereignty and His will and purpose. His will is not sidetracked one bit by man's disobedience. His purposes are still accomplished. It is seen over and over again in scripture. God takes ALL things and works them out for His glory. And only God can do that.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 15:00:13 GMT -5
Do Calvinists ever resist the devil? Do they ever cast him out or bind his work? I am not being sarcastic, but asking an honest question.
The reason I am asking is with the Calvinist viewpoint it seems there is no reason for binding, resisting the devil, because ultimately you are resisting God's will.
It seems the Calvinistic viewpoint does not really believe there is a real devil who is out to steal, kill, and destroy.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Noel on Mar 23, 2006 15:40:51 GMT -5
Jules, I generally agree with your post, but I'm not sure that it reperestents the traditional reformed position on the sovereignty of God. My understanding is that determinism is what the a consistent Calvinist believes. You write, "I know women who have had abortions (some professing to be Christians) who now help other women heal from the same sin. Is God glorified? Yes. Did he MAKE these women have an aobrtion so he could be glorifed? NO!!! But the awesome thing to see is that if we look back on our life of sin, before being soundly saved, it almost has the APPEARANCE that God directed our paths, and caused things to happen, because they SO worked out for His good, and ours. But did He? No. But it looks like it in retrospect." Norm Geisler give a brief overview of determinism: "All who accept strong forms of Calvinistic theology hold to some degree of theistic determinism. Jonathan Edwards related all actions ultimately to God as First Cause. "Free choice" for Edwards is doing what one desires, and God is the Author of the heart’s desires. God is sovereign, in control of all and so ultimately the cause of all. Fallen humanity is totally without freedom of the affections, so they can do whatever they want, but what they want will forever be in the control of their corrupt, world-directed heart. God’s grace controls actions as God controls desires and their attendant thoughts and actions....Two forms of determinism may be distinguished, hard and soft. A hard determinist believes all acts are caused by God, that God is the only efficient Cause. A soft determinist holds that God as the Primary Cause is compatible with human free choice as the secondary Cause." The only way for someone with Reformed theology to say what you've said is if you hold to what Geisler calls a "soft determinism". Either way God is ultimately the cause in both views. All this gets into intricate philosophical theories, but the more I've studied Calvinism and Arminianism the more I've realized that a HUGE chunk of the disagreement is philosophical. This at first repulsed and frustrated me, but I've come to realize that theology and philososphy are hard to untangle.
|
|