Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 22:10:40 GMT -5
I thought I would bring this up again, since their are new people here and since a lot of the things I brought up formerly were never answered...
Just thought I would start by posting this again:
Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance. Because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime.
Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word õἱïèåóßá (youiothesia) and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children.
Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word óöñáãßæù (sphragizo) and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “isgiven as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word ἀññáâþí (harrabon) and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar.
What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood, that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lost their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus, you must be “Born Again.” If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”?
Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom Heforeknew, He alsopredestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be thefirstborn among many brethren; and these whom Hepredestined, He alsocalled; and these whom He called, He alsojustified; and these whom He justified, He alsoglorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO, not predestined to save- God does NOT choose whom He will save) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven.
Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neitherdeath, nor life, norangels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love? The Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup OSAS in Scripture by any means. I will write more later if need be. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13.
P.S.
None of the Greek words turned out right when I copied and pasted to the board...sorry. But the english is in parentheses next to it.
And ADD to it as well:
What about Philippians 1:6, "being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
Can God no longer carry on HIS work of salvation to completion?
John 6:37-40, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will NEVER drive away. For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise them up t the last day. For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Where is there room in that Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
Then there is John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is great than all; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are one."
Same question for this one: Where is there room in this Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him will NEVER thirst. Indeed the water I give him will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
Once the fountain is open, it never runs dry. It is a wellspring of eternal life.
1 Corinthians 1:8-9, "He (Jesus) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."
Can get much clearer than that!
That's it for now gentlemen (and ladies), butI will have more tomorrow! Chew on this for now and tell me how these verses can me anything else but the fact that one CANNOT lose their salvation! ;D
Just thought I would start by posting this again:
Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance. Because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime.
Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word õἱïèåóßá (youiothesia) and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children.
Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word óöñáãßæù (sphragizo) and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “isgiven as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word ἀññáâþí (harrabon) and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar.
What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood, that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lost their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus, you must be “Born Again.” If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”?
Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom Heforeknew, He alsopredestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be thefirstborn among many brethren; and these whom Hepredestined, He alsocalled; and these whom He called, He alsojustified; and these whom He justified, He alsoglorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO, not predestined to save- God does NOT choose whom He will save) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven.
Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neitherdeath, nor life, norangels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love? The Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup OSAS in Scripture by any means. I will write more later if need be. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13.
P.S.
None of the Greek words turned out right when I copied and pasted to the board...sorry. But the english is in parentheses next to it.
And ADD to it as well:
What about Philippians 1:6, "being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
Can God no longer carry on HIS work of salvation to completion?
John 6:37-40, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will NEVER drive away. For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise them up t the last day. For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Where is there room in that Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
Then there is John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is great than all; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are one."
Same question for this one: Where is there room in this Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him will NEVER thirst. Indeed the water I give him will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
Once the fountain is open, it never runs dry. It is a wellspring of eternal life.
1 Corinthians 1:8-9, "He (Jesus) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."
Can get much clearer than that!
That's it for now gentlemen (and ladies), butI will have more tomorrow! Chew on this for now and tell me how these verses can me anything else but the fact that one CANNOT lose their salvation! ;D