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Post by Evan on Mar 30, 2006 20:30:28 GMT -5
Or could it be because we can fall, and therefore satan will try everyting to make us fall?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 30, 2006 22:28:18 GMT -5
A Christian can fall but a Christian does not have to fall.
It is a lie to say:
1. A Christian cannot fall 2. A Christian cannot help but to fall
The truth is, both are lies. A Christian is capable of falling and a Christian is capable of not falling.
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Post by Evan on Apr 1, 2006 14:10:27 GMT -5
Amen Jesse. This is what I have been studying, and it kind of fits into this category of discussion. If we need to only partially repent, then why doesnt the Bible somewhere say that we dont need to turn from all sin?
"know ye not, that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obediance unto righteousness?" (Rom. 6:16)
Who do you obey?
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom. 6:22)
Are free from sin by the blood of Christ?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. 6:6)
Are you crucified with Christ?
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom. 6:18)
The only reason to sin is because you are still a slave to it.
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Post by tomah on Apr 1, 2006 17:21:47 GMT -5
I have debated this long enough, so all I am going to humbly say is that I could never be convinced that a genuine believer can fall away from the grace and mercy of God. I am eternally secure, placed in a position in Christ where sin shall not have dominion over me and yet my flesh still serves the law of sin Rom 7:25b. Therein lies my greatest enemy; not Satan, but my flesh.
May God keep us all pure brethren
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 1, 2006 22:12:39 GMT -5
Is there anything at all that I could do or say to convince you otherwise?
What if the bible clearly said that you could fall from grace? Would you believe it then?
Ga 5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
This verse clearly teaches that you could fall from grace. But you have said a Christian could not fall from grace. Only those who have God's grace could lose God's grace. Only those who are in God's grace could fall from God's grace. This verse could not be talking about unbelievers, because they never had God's grace.
Also, 1Co 10:12 - "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Here Paul clearly says that one could fall. The only people who could fall are the ones who are actually standing. How could a sinner fall? He has never stood up! Only a Christian can fall from grace. But Armen, I have a serious problem with you saying that you cannot fall.
Friends, we must make sure that we get our beliefs from God's Word and not merely believe what we want to believe.
I see a problem when people on these boards say "I am dead in sin" when the bible says we are dead to sin. I see a problem when people say you cannot fall, when the bible says that you can fall. I have a serious problem with this.
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Post by Evan on Apr 2, 2006 10:39:04 GMT -5
I realize to, now that I set aside the old Westminster catechism, that there definately is a problem in the calvinistic theology. I havent really studied much of Arminius but anyone who has any resources I would be obliged if you would share. The ccel website has a few, but otherwise, nothing. Anyway...
I know that the reformed theology has a problem with saying eternal security is a license, but what else could it be? Now you say, A true Christian will not want to sin, granted, but satan is awfully tricky. He can trick you into spiritual pride, and you could never even know that you are trapped in bondage, and therefore not saved. Ther are many other examples but I have no time, this is a rest time as I have to go play drums with our worship band.
I am still in the middle, but I thinnk brother Jesse has cleared it up well enough, or should I say, the Bible has cleared it up well enough.
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Post by Evanagain on Apr 2, 2006 10:40:39 GMT -5
Oh, just a quick thought, satan is your greatest enemy, for he tempts your flesh. That is why we all need to be dead, that we can be free from sin, no longer obeying the lusts of the flesh.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 2, 2006 13:22:11 GMT -5
Augastine was right about some things and wrong about other things. Pelagius was right about somethings and wrong about other things. Calvin was right about some things and he was wrong about some things. Arminius was right about some things and he was wrong on some things. (I say all this according to my imperfect knowledge of the scriptures)
The point is, we really need to make sure that any theology that we subscribe to comes from the bible. Certainly God uses great men to help bring clarity and insight, but the ultimate authority must be the Word. I have never read any systematic theology nor a catechism (but I hope to in the near future), but I have my bible and that is were I get my theology from.
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Post by Grant on Apr 2, 2006 18:22:43 GMT -5
amen!
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Post by guest on Apr 2, 2006 20:58:13 GMT -5
What if the bible clearly said that you could fall from grace? Would you believe it then? Ga 5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." This verse clearly teaches that you could fall from grace. But you have said a Christian could not fall from grace. Only those who have God's grace could lose God's grace. Only those who are in God's grace could fall from God's grace. This verse could not be talking about unbelievers, because they never had God's grace. Also, 1Co 10:12 - "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Here Paul clearly says that one could fall. The only people who could fall are the ones who are actually standing. How could a sinner fall? He has never stood up! Only a Christian can fall from grace. But Armen, I have a serious problem with you saying that you cannot fall. These scriptures do not say what you;re tyring to make them say. The first relates to those under the law and have yet to receive God's grace and the second is pointed to the fact a believer might fall into sin.
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Post by Guest777 on Apr 2, 2006 22:45:34 GMT -5
If you read Galatians 5:4 in context of what Paul is saying to the Church of Galatia, he is telling them that they have "fallen from Grace" because they fell into the trap of believing the false teachers. The "Judaizer's", as they were called, would come behind Paul and try to convince Paul's new converts that they had to obey the Law to be saved as well. Paul preached salvation by grace alone through faith alone. The Judaizer's taught that you had to also obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. They taught that you had to be circumsized to be a child of God. THese people got circumsized because they believed the false teachers. They had therefore "fallen from Grace" because they had chosen to trust in a work and Grace, when Paul and all of us know that you are saved by grace alone through faith alone...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 3, 2006 8:23:52 GMT -5
To put it in the very words that Paul himself told Agrippa:
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:20
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Post by Guest777 on Apr 3, 2006 10:00:13 GMT -5
To put it in the very words that Paul himself told Agrippa: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:20 So how does that conflict with what I said above? I guess I am not sure what you are saying. True faith will include repentance obviously, because someone who has saving faith won't stay in their sins, won't walk in sin, won't practice sin and won't live in sin.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 3, 2006 10:54:23 GMT -5
I wasn't necessarily contradicting you. Sorry if it came off that way.
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Post by Guest777 on Apr 3, 2006 15:32:26 GMT -5
I wasn't necessarily contradicting you. Sorry if it came off that way. Not a problem brother. It's not that you came off that way, just wasn't sure what you were saying. It is so hard to understand a person's intent or who they are directing their statements at on message boards because they are just words on a page.
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Post by Juli on Apr 3, 2006 21:49:28 GMT -5
A Christian can fall but a Christian does not have to fall. It is a lie to say: 1. A Christian cannot fall 2. A Christian cannot help but to fall The truth is, both are lies. A Christian is capable of falling and a Christian is capable of not falling. "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will NEVER FALL, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:10-11 of course there are many many verse to support a supposed falling away potential as well, but you simply cannot deny that there is support Biblically for the fac that it is POSSIBLE to have security and not fall. Just as you preach it is POSSIBLE to live holy and not sin. It is the same thing. POSSIBLE, but few attain holiness, and few attain the full assurance of salvation.
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Post by Evan on Apr 4, 2006 9:35:44 GMT -5
The verse which you qouted is interesting, Notice that it says, "if you do these things...", that do this and you will never fall. What if someone prays the sinners prayer, repents, and has faith, but never wors out their salvatin with fear and trembling, never makes their calling and election sure, even though they has saving faith, can they fall? It is true that if we abide in Christ we will never fall, but if we do not abide in Christ we can fall. You are exactly right when you say it is possible to have the security to not fall, but it is also possible to not have that security. This verse really does nothing for eternal security.
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Post by Evan on Apr 4, 2006 9:42:24 GMT -5
I have started workingon a series of articles regarding a restatement of the doctrine of perfection. I am planning on maybe sending it in with Samuel Chadwicks book as their is no copyright. But many call this codtrine heresy, so here is a prtion of my first article...To the untrained eye a “worldling” can seem just like any Christian you could meet. The one way to tell the “worldling” from the true saint is by not only their lifestyle but by the way speak of God. If they do not give God his due reverence and pay humble homage to the king of kings then they have no concept of God in his majesty and power. They have never seen sin in its true light because they walk in darkness and hate the light. Their deeds are evil and if you tell them, they get mad and defensive. They tell you things like, “you cant live without sin” and “you are a heretic if you think you can live without sin.”
I examined this word heresy, it means holding a doctrine or teaching that opposes another. In this case it would be holding a doctrine that opposes the word of God and the life that the saints are to live under God and his direction. Anything that opposes the word of God can only come from one place, hell. The devil is the father of lies and all lies concocted against the word of God have their origin in him. This teaching in particular, of living in perfection, specifically moral perfection, cannot be heresy. Why? Because if everyone chose to act in faith and strive for perfection, it would destroy the most powerful thing the devil holds at variance with the church, sin. If sin were demolished in every believer than Satan would have no hold on the church. If the body of sin were destroyed then the church of Jesus Christ would walk in freedom and liberty to carry out God’s purpose here on earth. What do you think?
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 5, 2006 19:57:31 GMT -5
Charles Finney said that all sin is entered into volutarily; therefore, we always have choices to make. Those choices are made easier, that is to not sin, when we repent and God gives us the power to become children of God (John 1:12). Sadly, many Christians are deceived to believe their future sins have already been forgiven, so they ignore the seriousness of sin.
This is done even though their conscience screams "Don't Do That!". Many I speak to think that their conscience conviction of the Holy Spirit is just the devel trying to make them feel guilty. Doctrines of devils even confusing Christians into ignoring their sin.
This is why we are given 1 John 1:9. We are commanded to walk in His light in verse 7 with a conditional promise for those who do, but when we stumble, we confess that new sin and ask God to take away the desire, which is what is meant by being cleansed of all inquity. That is the desire that the sin is still desirous to us. Like a dog that still sees his vomit as "good food", when we see it as gross. God sees our sin as discusting like returning to our own vomit. This is why we must ask for cleansing from iniquity or the very desire to sin, and ask to see sin as God sees it, so we too see it as the vomit He died to deliver us from.
Remember, partial obedience is no obedience at all! God's not impressed with us giving away most of our sinful habits, He is concerned when any of our sin are more important to us than the blood Jesus poured out for us. What are you unwilling (not unable) to give up for God?
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Post by Evan on Apr 6, 2006 10:43:53 GMT -5
Questions for the sinning saint...
1) If the law is written in your heart, why dont you keep it?
2) If the Holy Ghost lives and works in you, and guides your thoughts, life and actions, how can you still sin?
3) If you abide in Christ then why is that you dont walk as he walked?
4) If you have the mind if Christ, then why do you think tolerantly of sin?
5) If you are born again then why do you live like your old self?
6) If you live in the presence of God, then how can you sin in the presence of God?
4)
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