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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 15:15:21 GMT -5
You who preach that repentance is partial, do you still sin every day?
I have a few questions for those of you who are against the teaching of Christian perfection.
- What sins can one commit and still be a Christian?
- How much sins does one need to give up in order to be saved?
- What sin do you still commit every day?
- Why have you not turned from this sin yet?
- If you have repented of it, why do you keep going back?
- Are you basing your theology on your experience rather then the bible?
- Why don't you simply turn from all known sin?
- Is there any single sin that you can't find freedom over in Christ? Is there any sin that you cannot repent from?
- Do you believe that if you want to be delivered from all sin, and pray to God for that deliverance, that He would deny your request?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 15:29:51 GMT -5
Very good!
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Post by Juli on Mar 28, 2006 16:13:53 GMT -5
Jesse, since you don't believe in eternal security, your line of questioning is going to be scewed toward that end, and that is fine. But, my answers are going to stem from the following, just so you know how they are scewed: as a firm believer that I didn't choose God but He chose me, and that I was DEAD in sins, not merely sick, and that as long as I am in the body of flesh I will deal with the sinful nature, and perserverance of the saints as a result of WHO GOD IS and not what I can or can't do, my answers are as follows:
- What sins can one commit and still be a Christian? one can commit ANY sin and still be ultimately saved. Those that CONTINUE in sin, presistent, habitually, are either goats or lost sheep. Those that continue in sin, without conviciton, and claim to be Christians are either goats or lost sheep. If they eventually do repent, then we will see by tehir fruit that they do have the Spirit and were lost sheep.
- How much sins does one need to give up in order to be saved? I am DEAD in my sins. I'm not merely sick. So this question makes no sense to me. This implies effort on my part before God will act. If I hand over my sins then I will be saved. That is not Biblical. Repentance comes when? AFTER God's kindness leads us there. He always acts first in all things.
- What sin do you still commit every day? Pride. Selfishness.
- Why have you not turned from this sin yet? Because I am not dead yet. These sins are now, because of the Spirit in me, repulsive to me. I recognize them as sin, realze my inability to save myself from them, and confess them and repent from them. Sometimes several times aday. They are decreasing in their intensity, frequency, and are moving from action to thought. All this is a progression, a putting to death by the Spirit.
- If you have repented of it, why do you keep going back? Because I am not dead yet in the body. And as long as I am in the body I will struggle against the sinful NATURE. The possibility of sinning is and will remain there.
- Are you basing your theology on your experience rather then the bible? Not at all.
- Why don't you simply turn from all known sin? I do turn from all known sin. But how do I even know what sin in? Why do I have a desire to turn from it? The Spirit of God. THe law showed me my sin and it sprang to life.
- Is there any single sin that you can't find freedom over in Christ? Is there any sin that you cannot repent from? No, I can and do repent from all sin through the power of the Spirit.
- Do you believe that if you want to be delivered from all sin, and pray to God for that deliverance, that He would deny your request? Yes, He already deliverd me from my sin in that He will not count it against me on the day of judgment -
Romans 7 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
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Post by Juli on Mar 28, 2006 16:15:40 GMT -5
by the way, I don't preach partial repentance, but I know where you are coming from in asking this. I know your understanding of it is different, and what you call partical repentance I don't. I know you and I are extreme opposites doctrinally, but appreciate the opportunity to dig deeper into why we each believe what we do. A faith unchallenged is a faith unchanged.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 28, 2006 16:33:31 GMT -5
Very good posts Juli... I think what it boils down to for me is that I don't believe someone can lose their salvation and many on here do. I base this on the Bible, not on experience...in fact as I have said before, I used to believe the opposite. Also, there is a difference in what the terms "sinless" and "perfection" mean. I don't preach partial repentance either and I'm not sure who you are referring to. I have not read a post by anyone on here who preaches that
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 17:07:20 GMT -5
Juli,
The bible says we WERE dead in sins not we are. We are to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God but it sounds like you are reckoning yourself to be dead indeed unto God but alive in sin.
Galatians 5:24-And they that are Christs HAVE (past tense) crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Why haven't you Juli? Are you Christ's or not?
You are making death your savior from sin and not Jesus. Jesus is your Savior from sin not death. Read 1 John 3:2-3, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 Thessalonians 3:13.
If you are not holy before death you will not go to heaven (Hebrews 12:14).
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Post by tomah on Mar 28, 2006 18:05:20 GMT -5
I would like to know how ANYONE can truely say and KNOW (the way only God knows) that they keep the greatest commandment...to love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind.
Is this possible? It is my firm conviction that only Christ truely fulfilled it's demands.
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Post by Juli on Mar 28, 2006 18:05:21 GMT -5
RevK, I called it partial repentance because that is what the thread was started as. I suppose those who don't feel the way I do probably look at what I preach as if I were preaching partical repentance, but I am not. I just wanted to clarify that.
Micah, I am certainly not reckoning myself dead unto God and alive in sin. Just the opposite. But I am dead spiritually because of my sinful nature, (which stays as long as I am physically alive) but alive (spiritually) because of the Spirit. Please don't misunderstand that - so I will try to clarify. First, I apreciate your post and comment about making death the savior and not Christ. I realize how you could interpret that from my post, and I assure you, I don't make death to the body my savior, but as with all things, extremeties are to be avoided, and I appreciate you pointing it out. Jesus is my savior from sin AND death. Sin IS DEATH. Because the wages of sin is death. Sin always leads to death, no exceptions. But to say a single sin by me which remains unconfessed at the point of physical death will lead me to death spiritually and therefore "lose" my salvation, with that I must wholeheartedly and confidently (as well as respectfully!) disagree. I hope that is not what you are saying though.
This is how I look at salvation, justification, sanctification, righteousness, etc. It is a by the way the perfect working of the Trinity. And I can't take credit for it, it was written by a man who is currently a pastor, teacher, and evangelist who works in Uganda at an evangelism training school there, where the Spirit of God and revival fires are burning brightly...but he explains it much better than I could...
The sinner: A rebellious (unwilling) and blind (impotent) HEART. (Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom 3:11) A guilty and offensive RECORD - (Ps 51:4; Rom 3: 10-18, 23; 6:19-21) an unholy and unproductive life - (John 15:5; Rom 7:18, 8:7-8)
The Father: PROMISES to His people (who are chosen in Christ before creation) A new HEART - (Deut 5:29; 6:5-6; 10:16; 29:4; 30:6; Jer 4:4; Ezek 11:19; 36:26 A new RECORD - Jer 23:6; Ezek 36:25 A new LIFE - Ezek 36:27
The SON in his sacrificial mercy: Produces the New HEART through union with Him in his crucification and resurrection - Rom 6:6; 11:2, 2 Cor 5:14, 15, 17 Secures the new RECORD through his atoning substitution - Lev 17:11; Isaiah 53: 1-2; 2 Cor 5:21 Embodies the New LIFE as a source = John 15:5, Eph 2:10; Gal 2:20, Phil 4:13
The Spirit: Implants the New HEART in regeneration John 3:5 Seals the RECORD in justification Ephesians 1:13-14 Effects the New LIFE in sanctification - Rom 1:4, 13, 15:16
The Christian as a result of God's grace and Christian experiences: Repentant faith at both the threshold and in the fabric of the kingdom of God - John 3:15-16; Acts 2:21, 38; 16:31; 20:21 Justification at the entrance of the Kingdom and daily forgiveness in the framework of the family of God - Rom 3:21, 5:1, Gal 3:16; 1 John 1:8-2:1 Sanctification at the reception into the Kingdom and daily renewal in the service of God = Heb 10:10, 14; 2 Cor 3:18, 1 Tim 2:4-5
By the way, I agree with "without holiness no one will see God" but the question really is - are you relying on your own actions to make you holy, or Christ's righteousness through faith? There is no in between - you either rest in your own ability or that of Christ's atonement and righteousness. And if I could "become holy" at some point in this body of flesh apart from the righteousness of Christ, then He died in vain. Because I could have died for my own sins, and become my OWN sinless sacrifice, as he was. I hope and pray that is not what you believe.
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 28, 2006 18:59:37 GMT -5
Where does weakness come into play here? Don't all of us go through seasons when our hearts get cold? Don't all of us have seasons where our prayer life is lacking? In these times don't we have less sensitivity to the Spirit? Don't we all have times where we get physically and emotionally drained and it effects us spiritually? Can anyone here honestly say that they live always at their peak spiritually? They never lack passion for God and for souls. Isn't this a reality for all of us this side of heaven? Can we say that we, personally, don't ever need revival? My point in this is that we need to recognize that we are not yet glorified. That doesn't mean any sin is expected or alright in our lives. It does mean that we are subject to weakness and, if we're honest, all of us have seasons like this. The emphasis should be on walking in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit we do not gratify the flesh. At the same time I think we need to admit that we don't always walk in the Spirit. I believe we can and should strive to always walk in the Spirit, but at the same time we should acknowledge that we often do so imperfectly. This is why we have a High Priest who is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." (Heb 3:15-16) The point here is not that the High Priest understands and overlooks are imperfections. The point is that when we are weak we can come to him without fear and receive mercy and find grace to live as we are called to live. There's no hint of license here. What we do find is mercy that restores and grace that enables. I just want to caution against excusing sin on one side and a performance orientation on the other. I tend to stray often into performance orientation being one who is passionate for holiness. Now I know that neither side believes that they're going in these directions, but when debating these topics we sometimes over compensate to make a point. Steve
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Post by Jules on Mar 28, 2006 19:17:39 GMT -5
Steve, EXCELLENT post...thank you for bringing balance. I never want to try to come across as one who excuses sin, so if I did, my apologies. There is much wisdom in what you say though and I agree totally (wow, harmony. How odd is that as of late?)
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 20:01:08 GMT -5
Juli,
I appreciate your humility but I wonder if you even read anything I wrote.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 0:05:00 GMT -5
Just to clarify, what I mean by sinless perfection or Christian perfection is complete repentance - the turning away from all known sin. Here is a good Jim Gilles quote:"In other words, if you hold that an individual can be a sinner and a Christian simultaneously then you have to believe that a person could be a homo sodomizing, kiddie porn addicted, child molesting, cross dressing, wife beating, murderous Jeffrey Daumer cannibalistic, bank robbing, transsexual, KKK loving, blood drinking Nazi with a 666 pentagram tattoo on his forehead. Just to name a few." 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. A Christian that sins is only saved IF he repents. If he does not repent he is either a hypocrite or a backslider and will have his portions with the unbelievers. Paul said a Christian is dead to sin, not dead in sin. Romans 6:11 The bible clearly teaches that one must turn from all sin BEFORE they can be saved. The biblical message of the gospel is always "Repent and Believe" it was never "Believe and Repent" or "Believe and Receive". Complete repentance is a condition prior to salvation. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" Luke 13:3 So the wages of sin is no longer death? The soul that sins shall not die?? One cannot have their sins covered and not have their sins cleansed! Jesus does not cover anyones sins without also curing their sin! SAVIORHOOD WITHOUT LORDSHIP???A. W. Tozer preached a great message against the belief that you can have Jesus as your Savior and then later choose Him as your Lord. Tozer says that God saves a man completely, not in parts but the whole. You can hear that message at: DOWNLOAD: www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/usavedmeJesus/AWTozer%20Preaching.mp3LISTEN NOW:www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/usavedmeJesus/AW%20Tozer%20Preaching.ram
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 29, 2006 0:15:25 GMT -5
Amen.
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Post by tomah on Mar 29, 2006 2:42:02 GMT -5
I would like to know how ANYONE can truely say and KNOW (the way only God knows) that they keep the greatest commandment...to love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. Is this possible? It is my firm conviction that only Christ truely fulfilled it's demands. Why won't people respond to this post? I want to hear some say that they KNOW they fulfill this.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 8:43:44 GMT -5
We are commanded to love God supremely, and our neighbor equally. We are to love God above everything else, if we do not love God above everything else but love father or mother or friends or anything more then Him then we cannot be His disciple. To be a disciple of Christ you must love God supremely and your neighbor equally.
Armen, is there anything that you love more then you love Jesus Christ?
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Post by tomah on Mar 29, 2006 10:40:10 GMT -5
No, but there is a difference between that and the command.
You see, if we love Christ with 51% of our beings, then we love Him more than anything else. But that isn't saying that we love him with 100% of our beings. I believe that only Christ did that. I don't believe that even the apostle Paul fulfilled this, for he cried when he was an old man, "that I might know him..."
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 29, 2006 11:59:41 GMT -5
I'm not trying to make a point so please don't read this as that. I'm asking an honest question.
What is the 'victorious Christian life'? If you can't really love God with all your heart or have victory over all sin?
That sounds depressing and discouraging to me.
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Post by tomah on Mar 29, 2006 13:17:12 GMT -5
It's not depressing or discouraging brother...it's a joy because ultimately there will be COMPLETE victory when our Saviour returns in power and great glory and we are glorified, forever to be with the Lord.
Our REAL victory on earth is the sure "hope" that lies within us of this coming day, and rejoicing in the light of it, as well as becoming more and more like our Saviour in holiness.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 29, 2006 15:37:14 GMT -5
So let's see, how should I answer? If I say yes, I will be accused of being prideful, lying, or trying to earn my salvation by works, or be told I can never do what God has clearly commanded me to do.
If I say no, then I am denying what the Word of God says will be my experience, and what my own experience is.
Hmmmm.....what a dilemma.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 29, 2006 15:44:33 GMT -5
Many times on here I have been accused of being prideful because I testified to being saved from all my sin. I have been told that NO Godly men from years past would ever say such a thing.
Do any of you know who Praying Hyde was? Would he be considered a Godly man? He prayed regularly for months at a time with hardly any sleep or food at all. He had lasting fruit in India and gave his life sacrificially as a missionary for the conversion of souls.
I heard Dr. Michael Brown tell the story of when Praying Hyde was a young man and preparing for the mission field he heard a minister testify of how Jesus had saved him from all sin. The Lord then asked Praying Hyde if he could truly tell others he was saved from all sin and he could not. Without having this testimony he knew he could not preach Jesus as Savior from sin when he knew he was not saved from ALL sin himself. He continued to seek the Lord for deliverance and sanctification until he had the testimony that he himself was saved from all sin.
What about the old Wesyelan Methodists? Weren't they Godly men?
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Post by Juli on Mar 29, 2006 19:12:14 GMT -5
Juli, I appreciate your humility but I wonder if you even read anything I wrote. Micah, I most certainly read what you wrote, I always read completely through posts if I am going to reply to them. What gives you the impression that I did not read it?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 19:18:56 GMT -5
This is called a straw-man and in an arguement it's a fallacy of presumption and a fillacious arguement.
They build up this figure ( a prideful, lying, salvation by works figure) and then preach against those things. But we too would preach against those things. We are against pride, lying, and salvation by works just as much as anyone.
So this fillacious type of arguement which builds up a straw man and then tears down that straw man is not a legitament arguement and must be disregarded.
When talking about this doctrine of holiness, what we need to do is ask what the bible actually says. Micah and the others have done a great job at providing scriptural reasons for believing in freedom from sin and total victory over bondage.
But even if anyone was guilty of these strong accusations, that still does not discredit what the bible actually says. So rather then tearing down this straw-man, in this debate you must look at the scriptures and give an explaination for them.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 19:28:15 GMT -5
This technique of arguement is also what is known as an "Ad Hominem".
Ad Hominem: An informal fallacy in which the object of attack is not te merits of some position, but the person who takes that position. When the attack is on the character of the person, the fallacy is called an "abusive ad hominem"; when the attack is gruonded on the special circumstances of some person, the fallacy is called a "circumstantial ad homine."
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 29, 2006 20:57:29 GMT -5
Fresh from the partial camp, here is my two cents.
Jesus can and will save "to the uttermost" will he not? Paul said, "He that is dead is freed from sin."(Romans 6:7) which sets the stage for his question, if we are free from sin why do we still live int it? (Paraphrase). If you are set free from something then why wouldnt you leave it. I spent some time in jail awhile back and when I was set free, I left. When the prodigal "came to himself" he got up and left the pig pen. The only reason to sin is because one is are captive to it.
I didnt really read the whole thread, forgive me if I repeated anything.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 30, 2006 0:30:02 GMT -5
Juli,
What gave me that impression was your response. I explained several things clearly in my post (whether or not you agree does not matter) that you asked, and then you reposted the same questions like you didn't even pay attention.
In particular I said I was saved from all sin because of the salvation of Jesus blood, and then you reposted the same thing you wrote before I responded that way saying that if we are without sin why do we need a savior?
I am without sin today because I have a savior from sin (Matthew 1:21).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 30, 2006 0:48:06 GMT -5
Amen. It's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. It's the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
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Post by Evan on Mar 30, 2006 13:43:09 GMT -5
I have a question. I thought of this last night. I am putting my theology through heavy thought and examination, and this question came to me.
If sin is somewhat permissable, and a saint can never fall, why does the devil bother with tempting us?
Is seems somewhat futile and pointless for satan to waste his time on the saints if, even if they give in, they will never fall.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 30, 2006 14:30:27 GMT -5
I have a question. I thought of this last night. I am putting my theology through heavy thought and examination, and this question came to me. If sin is somewhat permissable, and a saint can never fall, why does the devil bother with tempting us? Is seems somewhat futile and pointless for satan to waste his time on the saints if, even if they give in, they will never fall. Evan..Good Question!! The Lord will have his Glory... Look at Psalms 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before and laid thine hand upon me...Ever thought what this means God has us pinned in.. That Father God knows all our inward thoughts, motives, desires and fears.. as well as our outward habits and action..He knows it all, he encircles us with His care and lays His hands of favour upon our hearts.. This is a Promise From Father God:: Now you must be saying what does this happened to do with what i ask, alot...Basically, am looking and leaning towards Hebrews 12:5 The chastening of the Lord.. why, this passage because i believe it holds the key to the promise of God, who he is... The word discipline of believers and hardships and troubles, why he allows us to suffer.. One thing comes to mind, is that it is a sure sign that we are his children of Almighty God.. Ever thought that we may endure the hardships , but God leads us through, when we submit to his will and continued to remain faithful in Christ Jesus.. By doing so we live as Spiritual children and share in his holiness, going from glory to glory... This yield's the fruit of righteouness, strenghten our spiritual muscles, and discernment into practice, based on God's principles, and the hunger for the word of God will sharpen... Going forward here..under the same Will of God, there may be Spiritual warfare that we will do with satan, the adversity may come. Eph 6:11-18.. as a test to strenghten our Faith, and works 1 Peter 1:6-7: Mat 7:24-27, 1 Cor 3:13-15, didn't Father God say our Faith is more precious then gold..another one of God's will in that... It also strenghtens us to help others, by the Grace gifts, that is Promised again.. Wouldn't you say the greatest would be the manifest the life of Christ in us.. 2 Cor 4:8-10,12,16... We are to forsake all that is contrary to His Holiness, and in all kinds of adversity we must seek God and examine our lives.. satan , would love to get a child of God to doubt God, and turn to self...Look at the fall of man.. satan may know scripture, can twist it, but the one thing he can't do that we can is submit to the word of God through obedience...Praise God, Our King of Kings Christ Jesus, whom the son sets Free is Free in deed.. Hope this as helped ... Blessed Regards..
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Post by Jules on Mar 30, 2006 18:05:58 GMT -5
Juli, What gave me that impression was your response. I explained several things clearly in my post (whether or not you agree does not matter) that you asked, and then you reposted the same questions like you didn't even pay attention. Micah, well at least we agree on one thing - that both of us feel like the other one isn't paying attention at all and we are talking around in circles. So be it. We must each give an account before God. I don't see the point in trying to bring harmony, agreement or understanding on this particular teaching because it sounds like each of us is convinced in our own minds of what we believe on these points. Or at least, I should not be learning from you and you should not be learning from me, that much is clear. Thanks for taking the time though, I still benefitted from it by seeing how doctrines are misunderstood and misrepresented as a result of presuppositions and personal experiences on both parts. Sola Scriptura!
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Post by Jules on Mar 30, 2006 18:09:47 GMT -5
Evan, what an awesome question! I would suggest because it is to bring God glory. If we were not tempted in any way by satan (not that we NEED further temptation beyond our own sinful natures we do just fine screwing up on our own) then how would God be glorified? It is the struggle against the flesh and the powers of darkness that results in praise to God because he has given us the means to be victorious. I would think those who preach holiness and sinless perfection would agree, because they (at least the ones on this board) would say it is because of grace and the atonement they can be vicotrious over sin or temptation. Just my two cents.
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