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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 22:02:32 GMT -5
It is vitally important that we define the terms that we are using. Often brothers disagree because they are talking about the same topic yet each totally define their terms differently, yet their definitions remain private so the other does not know it.
When I talk about "sinless perfection" I am talking about "complete repentance" - the turning way of all known sin. And one must turn away from all known sin in order to be a Christian.
Amen’s? Rebuttals? Do you agree with this definition? Do you disagree with this definition?
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Post by josh on Mar 28, 2006 22:04:28 GMT -5
Amen, I agree with you
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 22:43:45 GMT -5
Amen.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 28, 2006 23:24:27 GMT -5
Jesse... i understand and agree that it is a "True repentance unto life".... what i have came across is that the language is foreign to christian's ears , the word repentance has been rarely used in the last what 75+ to 100 years here in the USA it became unpopular with the preaching, and ever so distasteful, unpopular word of religion both to the utterly repugnant to the carnal, unsanctified,nominal Christian and ever so strong prejudice, and more so to those unbelieving sinner's to word would be..But rather either way it may be ...It is the immutable Word of God. Repentance is of Gospel orgin because Jesus preached it, then in it is gracious in its origin, because it is a gift from God, thus repentance unto life is a Grace gift from Christ we get repentance from Christ by the Spirit of God and not bring it to him..So that it in itself a gift for the Glory of God and His honor, what he has done for us, on the Cross, through the redemptive bood of Christ.. but it doesn't stop there...Heb12:1,we must run the race and finish it, to run the race knowing that the greatest peril confronting us is the temptation to yeild to sin , and to return to that country from which we came out from.. Hebrews 11:15 James 1:12 and to become once again citizens of the world.. Hebrews 11:13, James 4:4 1 John 2:15 Our Faith here is the picture of who we will see in eternality... Blessed Regards...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 0:02:03 GMT -5
I also wanted to make another clarification.
I do not teach the impossibility of a Christian sinning, or the impossibility of a Christian to backslide. Rather, I see that the bible teaches the possibility of a Christian to sin as well as the possibility for a Christian not to sin, I see the possibility of a Christian to backslide and the possibility of a Christian not to backslide.
Does anyone disagree with my previous definition of sinless perfection?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 22:02:10 GMT -5
I am very much interested, for those of you who have taken such a strong stance against "sinless perfection" how do you define it?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 30, 2006 9:53:58 GMT -5
That is a good question. One I started thinking about not too long ago. The Bible surely talks about perfection. The real question is not is it possible, but what exactly is it?
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Post by brianbomar on Apr 15, 2006 11:34:19 GMT -5
Yes, I do. As we all know, to sin means to "Miss the Mark". So, when we say sinless perfection, we are saying in essence that we HAVE arrived. We are perfect, we act like Jesus in every way, we operate in full Agape Love towards God and man all day, every day, without exception. We never grumble or complain (even in our hearts). We always serve our wives (even when they ask for a back rub after you've been on the streets witnessing all day and your body is writhing in exhaustion and pain).
I find the constant examples of "Christian pefection" quite minimal to God's standards. "Perfectionists" are always mentioning sexual sins, debauchery, lying, etc. On a scale of 1-100, I would say these all lay somewhere between 5-10. Even a Muslim, Mormon, Alcoholics Anonymous success can reach these levels of righteousness in their own strength - and many have. But as we go up and up and up the scale, we see that we ourselves are "men of unclean lips". Seriously, have you ever had the Lord convict you because you didn't give an uplifting word, but instead spouted off some fact that you knew, when your own motive was simply to impress others? Our Lord said:
This means, if we are speaking words that are not unctioned by the Holy Spirit, we are simply promoting ourselves, for God has not given us those words. In context, Jesus was making the exact point that He was not saying His own words, but hte Fathers. Have you ever spoken from yourself? If so, the Word declares you were doing so for the glorification of your own name, and that is sin. It was sin all along, but it took me a long time before I became aware of it. Thus, to call my self "sinlessly perfect", would be a lie and brough judgment on myself even greater for being arrogant, although I did have a clean conscience about jumping out with the sword of truth anytime I saw an opportunity.
This is why it is written:
I think a better term, which is much more biblical than "sinlessly perfect", is "walking with a clean/good/pure conscience".
You will find the phrases I mentioned in the Bible. If you do a search for "sinless perfection", you will find it not once.
Some scriptures....
Our conscience is effected by our knowledge, and is ignorant of our ignorances (redundant, yes I know). But it's true. When we are ignorant of something as being unrighteous, then we very well may be sinning, but we are not transgressing for we do not know God's law in that area.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 15, 2006 12:49:24 GMT -5
I'm going to sound really simplistic here, mostly because it is the only way I am able to grasp these things :-) I too agree with complete repentence. Turning away from all sin and choosing to not continue a lifestyle embracing those sins.
Here is the part where I get lost. Are you guys suggesting that a Christian won't from time to time, commit one of those sins that we have turned away from and need to go before the throne asking for forgivness? The term "sinless PERFECTION" has a pretty serious implication....it suggests that we must be perfectly sinless or without sin (just a sidenote, that would also include unknown sin...can't be "perfect" without including those.)
You said that you don't believe that it is impossible for a Christian to sin.....therfore you believe that it is possible for a Christian to sin. It doesn't really fit into a sinless perfection belief.
Again, I think most of us are probably a lot closer to the same belief than we think, but semantics are getting in the way....agree?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 15, 2006 12:53:59 GMT -5
It's always very important that we define not only our terms for holiness, but also our terms for sin.
If sin is, "missing the mark" then the question arises what is the mark?
If the mark is God in His absolute perfection and glory, then I have not "arrived" at all. I'm still seeking after Him to become more and more like Him in every aspect of my life. The bible calls this going from "glory to glory".
If the mark is God's Law, "sin is transgression of the Law," then all Christians should be above reproach. Christ taught, "if you love me, keep my commandments." By transgressing God's Law I mean lying, stealing, blaspheming, adultery, idolatry, etc etc which we are taught very clearly about, that those who do such things will not inherit God's Kingdom. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. But that we "were" these types of people, but are not any longer, vs 11.
"Sinless Perfection" may not be the best term for "turning from all KNOWN sin". Some would simply term this conversion, others repentance. Whatever it be called, it is what we are all called to do.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 15, 2006 12:57:18 GMT -5
The bible teaches that if a Christian sins, he has an advocate with the Father. So the bible says "if" which means the possibility of it.
If someone defines sinless perfection as the impossibility to sin, then I disagree with sinless perfection.
If sinless perfection is the complete repentance of all known sin, then I'd say that is Christianity.
If anyone sins, the solution is simply repent.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 15, 2006 13:08:19 GMT -5
Well.......yeah! I can't imagine anyone on this board disagreeing with that.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 15, 2006 13:24:52 GMT -5
People tend to forget about love, wichich is the bond of perfectness, the end of the commandment, and the fulfilling of the law.
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Post by josefurban on Apr 17, 2006 7:37:10 GMT -5
Jesse,
I completely agree with your view on the sin issue and am with you on that.
However, what I am not with you on is using the term "sinless perfection" to define your view of "complete repentance" and here's why:
Sinless perfection, as I have found out, has been taught down through history as the inability to sin and that a Christian can morally, by his own power apart from grace, be without any sin at all, hence, sinlessly perfect. Here is a definition I found:
SINLESS PERFECTION: [also called PERFECTIONISM] a theological view that holds that a believer can "arrive" at a state in which (1.) his walk in obedience and holiness is not dependant on the Grace of God, and that (2.) he no longer has the ability to sin.
In light of this definition, I have to reject this term and view altogether and if this is the true definition, I know you will too. The term "Sinless Perfection" should be avoided to describe your view. I humbly suggest using a different term to describe complete repentance, like "Christian perfection" or "Scriptural Holiness" or even "Entire Sanctification". God bless you brother!
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 7:51:44 GMT -5
Love your post Brian Bomar! The term I would suggest is Normal Biblical Christian, if we are talking about turning from all known sin.... ;D
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 10:32:05 GMT -5
I think normal biblical Christian defines it best and cuts away probably most of the misconceptions.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 10:42:03 GMT -5
I like the term Gospel Perfection.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 11:18:37 GMT -5
The problem I find that you run into when using the word Perfection is what we have already discussed. People's (especially the unsaved) definition of Perfection is usually too lofty for any of us to say we have attained. You run into all sorts of problems when using that Word because of people's preconceived notions and understandings...
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 11:27:37 GMT -5
Katartizo (look this word up in your lexicon, it is Greek for perfection)
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 11:30:04 GMT -5
Katartizo (look this word up in your lexicon, it is Greek for perfection) And your point is? So, do you think that the world (the unsaved) will understand everything you say as you understand it, just because it is the Biblical Word for it?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 11:33:55 GMT -5
"The natural man recieves not the things of God..." I normally wouldnt talk about Gospel Perfection around the unsaved, I would preach holiness. This message board is tough because of that.
Discipleship is the place to talk about perfection. Are you unsaved rev? I am assuming you are soundly saved and far with the Lord Jesus, you will understand.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 11:37:15 GMT -5
Brother, if you can't tell I'm saved, then there is something wrong with you. I was speaking in context of what I had already said: The problem I find that you run into when using the word Perfection is what we have already discussed. People's (especially the unsaved) definition of Perfection is usually too lofty for any of us to say we have attained. You run into all sorts of problems when using that Word because of people's preconceived notions and understandings... I wasn't talking about us talking about it, but about talking to the unsaved about it. You through in the Greek word for perfect right after I said what is quoted from above. How did I know you were switching like that?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 11:53:45 GMT -5
For one thing brother, I as being sarcastic when I said "I am assuming you are saved" and you will notice that is revealed by what I said directly after.
But the fact is I am talking to you and not an unsaved person, which was my point. We need to lighten up around here. It is getting where I am afraid to say anything.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 11:56:05 GMT -5
For one thing brother, I as being sarcastic when I said "I am assuming you are saved" and you will notice that is revealed by what I said directly after. But the fact is I am talking to you and not an unsaved person, which was my point. We need to lighten up around here. It is getting where I am afraid to say anything. Just miscommunication brother. My apologies...I am learning more and more how hard it is to communicate effectively on message boards..
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 12:01:46 GMT -5
Definatley true.
But think we need to start using the smiley faces more. Also the doctrine and teholgy part I think is for just Christians. That is why Jesse made the other new areas.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 12:26:13 GMT -5
That's right, this section is only for saved people who want to engage in theological "in house debates". Only saved people can post here.
For the reason, I'm afraid I'll have to move your posts Evan to the world-view debating section.......... ;D
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Post by josefurban on Apr 17, 2006 17:14:10 GMT -5
I think normal biblical Christian defines it best and cuts away probably most of the misconceptions. All I can say to that is AMEN!
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Post by Bryan Acred on Apr 17, 2006 17:19:05 GMT -5
Hey Josef!
Man, we just went through Toledo a few weeks ago. I wished I would of known you were there. Sure miss the family from EBC8.
God Bless,
Bryan Acred <><
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 17, 2006 19:48:33 GMT -5
Josef, I have to agree with you. If that is the definition then no way do I teach that.
We really do have to be careful using terms with the unsaved such as perfect and sinless. Explaining what you mean on just about any topic is usually necessary. Just boldy saying that you are perfect or even boldy saying you are sinless (even if you know exactly what you mean) usually doesn't make sense to just about anyone except a holiness preacher. Choose terms wisely and be sure to instruct and teach while preaching. In fact, in order to diffuse situations specifically pertaining to the topic at hand, when someone in the crowd shouts out, "Are you saying you are perfect!?" (which is typical after going through any scripture that says x, x, x, and x will not inherit the kingdom of God..) My response now is usually along the lines of, "No, no... I'm not perfect. Jesus was perfect. I have sinned a lot in my life. I would be just as guilty as anyone of commiting sins." And then I make it a point to explain repentance, "I used to do many of those things all the time, but then I turned from them... I'm not saying I have never sinned, even since becoming a Christian, but I am saying you must turn from ALL known sin, and IF you sin in the future, simply repent." I then usually talk about using the grace of God as a licence for sin how that is hypocrisy and if one thinks that he can sin (even a little bit) BECAUSE he knows he will be forgiven, that that man is in danger of hell fire. I do of course preach that a man be "free from sin" as Paul put it. No one of course is free from temptation. Hope this helps a little. There is a danger for holiness preachers to say things in an arrogant manner. Brethren, this ought not be.
Miles
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 17, 2006 19:56:15 GMT -5
Josef, I have to agree with you. If that is the definition then no way do I teach that. We really do have to be careful using terms with the unsaved such as perfect and sinless. Explaining what you mean on just about any topic is usually necessary. Just boldy saying that you are perfect or even boldy saying you are sinless (even if you know exactly what you mean) usually doesn't make sense to just about anyone except a holiness preacher. Choose terms wisely and be sure to instruct and teach while preaching. In fact, in order to diffuse situations specifically pertaining to the topic at hand, when someone in the crowd shouts out, "Are you saying you are perfect!?" (which is typical after going through any scripture that says x, x, x, and x will not inherit the kingdom of God..) My response now is usually along the lines of, "No, no... I'm not perfect. Jesus was perfect. I have sinned a lot in my life. I would be just as guilty as anyone of commiting sins." And then I make it a point to explain repentance, "I used to do many of those things all the time, but then I turned from them... I'm not saying I have never sinned, even since becoming a Christian, but I am saying you must turn from ALL known sin, and IF you sin in the future, simply repent." I then usually talk about using the grace of God as a licence for sin how that is hypocrisy Amen to that Miles
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