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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 4, 2006 8:48:03 GMT -5
What are your theological views/thoughts concerning Biblical Separation?
Here are some verses to get the ball rolling:
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. -Romans 16:17
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him - Titus 3:10
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. - 2 John 1:9-11
Also, what are some examples of people/groups who have taken scripture and twisted it or distorted it to fit an unbiblical separatist view?
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 4, 2006 8:58:03 GMT -5
With the rise of postmodern thought, it is common for people to avoid calling any one person or teaching WRONG. Instead we usually dance around the issues of right and wrong and water down our words.
Often times we trivialize what teachers in the past would announce anathema! What has changed so much in the Church where men are so accepting of virtually all things?
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2006 9:33:37 GMT -5
Jeff, If I didn't know better, it would seem you have an agenda in mind (tsk tsk). But assuming your post was nothing more than an innocent question without hoping to lead into something more divicive, I'll give a quick response. I am whole heartedly against wrong doctrine being preached and do my best to implement those verses in my walk but never losing sight of GOD's patience He had for me to become aware of my own previously horrendous doctrinal issues. But for this reason, I have found participating in doctrinal discussions (not debates or arguments) helpful so that I might better know others' points of view. In doing so, I am then able to apply methods to help them understand where they are in error OR examine my own understanding and test where I might be in error. But in all of this, the moment it starts becoming divicive I pull out. If the brethren continue towards argumentative attitudes, then those verses apply and I leave them in their hardened hearts. But just because someone doesn't take on my understandings immediately (or ever) does not mean they are heretics necessarily but perhaps needing more time and His revelation. My personal experience (which has only been of recent months) has been that those who come into discussions with a proud heart that they are right and everyone else is wrong, no matter how they justify it, will slowly (if ever) come to truly understanding GOD's character and the depths of understanding His word, which I can only hope to come to some day. The principles in Scripture are fragments of knowledge of someone they might never know by revelation because of their pride. GOD is looking for the contrite and humble spirit, and who trembles at His word. I'm not sure this is the answer you were looking for but it was on my heart. Peace be with you.
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 4, 2006 10:04:47 GMT -5
Just to clarify, my question has nothing to do with the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of diverse doctrinal beliefs and teachings found on this or any other message board.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 5, 2006 13:23:08 GMT -5
Jeff:
The whole reason many of us took WOTM courses was to better undstand why JW believ what they do, Mormons, Budists.......... Yes we all here can agree they are false doctrines, because they don't believe we are saved by grace through belief in Jesus Christ.
You and I have witnessed together and hopefully can continue to do so at events in So. Cal, yet I am disagree with all five points of Calvinism.
The love of my neighbor as my self and that love which God gave me for the lost, and His urgency to reach them for the Gospel while there is still time is what drives me to witness. Amazingly, it should be both love for God and love for our neighbor which drives each of us to witness, yet many a Calvinsits would have to admit that they witness primarily out of duty to God, not really out of love for others. When they says they do it for love of others, I ask them why God would care if the reach out to those He has already decided will burn and be tortured forever and ever in eternity. Therefore, God really only would care that they reach the ones He has appointed, but even if they miss those appointments, He will save them anyway.
I had a Pastor looked stunned at me when I asked him why he as Calvinsit came out to our work at our outreaches. He had to admit it was because he knew God commanded it. He was more stunned when I ask if he had love for the lost, and where he supposed that love came from?
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 5, 2006 14:02:30 GMT -5
Jack,
That was a great post and a valid question, but it didn't really address the question of Biblical Separation. You post seemed to address the heart motive of some Calvinists especially concerning evangelism. I can tell you that my love for the lost is driven by compassion and gratefulness. I have compassion for those who are enemies of God and servants of self. I am grateful that Jesus bore my debt on that cross and shed His blood. That gratefulness drives me to be serve the Lord. Something that was missing from your post is the reality that neither Arminian nor Calvinist knows who is lost... we both engage in evangelism with that premise. Sure we have a pretty good idea by one's actions and by what one says whether a person is a believer or not, but it's always just that: a pretty good idea. Examples of this are ones who have grown up in church, dress right, speak right, live a biblically moral life, and give all the right answers to our questions. Are they really followers of Christ? Or just good actors? We may never know. I our lack of divine knowledge is a good reason to love all men as Scripture commands.
Now back to the topic of Biblical Seperation....
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2006 14:06:44 GMT -5
What is implied, The churches responsibility to go instead of bringing the lost in? Our seperation from the false teachers and false brethren? Seperation can be applied in a few different ways. What are we talkingabout here?
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 5, 2006 16:14:42 GMT -5
Jeff:
Great points as well. My point is we can have separate ministry teams, but realize we are all either on God's team or Satan's. If we all found out that we had two weeks until Jesus came, we would all quit our jobs and preach to anyone who would listen. We would be much more concerned that as many would hear as possible.
We wouldn't have time to critique each other, we would be too busy to notice.
The Bible speaks of Biblical Separation only when one is preaching another gospel. It seems we can all make the Bible say what we want it to say, they key is no one here is saying we don't come through the shed blood of Christ.
Separation was done with Paul and Barnabas, but never banned anyone from associating with the other.
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 5, 2006 21:41:33 GMT -5
The Bible speaks of Biblical Separation only when one is preaching another gospel.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 5, 2006 22:56:06 GMT -5
Great lead in Jeff. Again lets go to scripture and see how the Apostle Paul described the gospel in what my Bible highlights "The Summary of the Gospel" 1 Corinthians 15
v1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gosple which I preached unto you, which ye v have received, and wherein ye stand;
v.2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(note: please read verse 2 again and notice very cleary 2 "IF's", and that one can in fact believe in vain)
v. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
v.4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:
v.5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then the twelve:
v. 6 And that , he was seem of above five hundred at once; of whom that greater part remain unto this presnt, but some are fallen asleep.
v.7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
v.8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one bor out of due time.
v.9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
v.10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
v.11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preached, and so ye believed.
v.12 Now of Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
v.14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
v. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
v.16 For if the dead rise not, then is Christ not raised:
v. 17And if Christ not be raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
v.18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
v.19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
v.20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
v.21 For since by man came death, by man aslo came the resurrection of the dead.
v.22 For in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
v. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
v.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall put down all rule and all authority and power.
v.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
v.26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
v.27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
v.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
v.29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
v. 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
v.31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
(please note Paul believed we die daily to obedience to Christ)
v.32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.
(Now please note the conclusion of the matter by Paul)
v.33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
v.34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
The gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, if we keep in memory what was preached, so our faith is not in vain. James described it as loosing focus on who we are, and being carried away by our own lusts and desires to death (second death in James 1:12-16). Note that Paul describes the manner in which our sins are forgiven (The death of Christ), and also described in verse 33 that some are deceived and there speech must have turned back to cursing and evil speaking of others. He exhorts us to wake up that we must continue to seek after righteousness and SIN NOT. He emphazises that some disregarded this and show they lacked knowledge to their shame. Shame is the greek word Entrope form en = in , upon and trepo = which is to return upon oneself through shame, like a public shaming. Paul was refering to those who went back to their old ways, obvious to all and to their visible shame.
This is why repentance is part of the gospel, enforced by Luke 13:3.
We all know that all who are not in Christ will perish. Paul in verse 18 refers to people that fell asleep "in" Christ were the ones of hope.
Part of the gospel is most certainly to stay in faith and keep the cross ever before our memories, and that it causes us to die daily, to self and sin.
The grace of the gospel, deserves nothing less a response than a total surrending of ones will and all to and under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the will of God.
Does that answer what the gospel is?
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 5, 2006 23:54:21 GMT -5
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 6, 2006 10:21:48 GMT -5
Jeff: You ask? Hebrews 6:2 Or baptisms (that is, cleansing rites)
If those six things are the elementary doctrine of Christ and were laid as a foundation throughout Scripture to teach immature believers, how do they play a role in the gospel message?
Since we are preaching to either non-believers (who need the basics first for a foundation) or some that might have never grown to maturity (since they still aren't obedient to Christ) these doctrines are still critical to get a person to maturity. Just because a person was saved 10 years ago, doesn't mean they are mature in Christ, nor does a person who has two years only in Christ not posibly mature very quickly.
Baptism is an outward step of obedience and a dying to self and being reborn to God. That ceremony is nice and symbolic, but moving on from the act of Baptism, is that person a mere hearer of the words related to that, or do they actually become a doer of that, proving they faith is not a dead faith as James explains.
In that Hebrews passage you quote, it was a call to leave the rituals of Judism, and not just allow a water Baptism to seal the deal so to speak. Many were turning back to Judism and in doing so hand to denounce Christ and say that what He did, He did in the power of Satan. That was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which was unpardonable, and thus we have the threat to any that would say Jesus worked in the power of Satan in verse 6:6 which said such a proclamation, once enlightened, was permanent.
That being different from a backslidden condition, which through repentance, could graft the branch back into the tree (see Romans 11).
I am still not sure why you are asking all this? Jeff, this is why the tracts we use in my ministry, "Know Your Future" not only have the law to start out on the "good person test", but then go from the bad news to the good news (Jesus offer of eternal life), then how Jesus demonstarted His love, That we are called to walk in His light (1 John 1:7) so His blood cleanses us, the passages in 1 Cor 15, Jogn 14:6, and 1 Tim 2:5 so they see Jesus is the mediator. We then lay out what God expects Repentence (Luke 13:3), Receive (John 1:12), and Love/Obedience (John 14:15). We then lay a course for faith through Rev 3:20 and Eph 2:8-9. A model prayer is offered. Proof verses include a person placing eternal life in the fact they "have" the Son (1 John 5:11-13), so they can at any time examine themselves and ask "Do I have the Son?" to see if they are in the faith, or see they are backsliding. We also offer in our booklet "Now Grow Strong" tips to read the Bible, pary daily, attend a church that teaches truth, be baptized, and let your love show by bring others to Christ (Roman 1:16).
All this are least the basic a new convert should know to establish the foundation firmly in Christ and start them into the maturity process. I still remember how sensitive my conscience was after getting saved. It helped me to right away be aware of what was sin. Since I knew right from wrong, as James says in 14:7, the things I knew which were right and didn't do them, these became sin to me and loved God too much to do them any more. I slipped in some areas and wanted to have either God kill me, or take away the desire for those sins, and He did both. He gave me choice about beer. He said if I wanted to be used by Him, He needed a clean vessel on call all the time. Just a doctor on call, or pilot on call doesn't drink, i gave that up all together, and He was true to His promise and began to use me to minister to many all around me. What a deal, I give up willful sins, and the God of Creation will use me, even me!
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 6, 2006 11:17:55 GMT -5
Honestly, I assure all of you that there is no secret agenda behind these questions. In my personal prayer and study time, God has been pressing me to learn more about this certain area. It was interesting that at the same time as I originally asked questions about Biblical Separation, someone asks me to seperate myself from this board. One of those insteresting set-ups from God I suppose.
I'm still meditating on all that you have posted, Jack. I am very thankful for such a hearty chunk of meaty Scripture and insightful commentary!
Jesse stole our question, "What is the Gospel?" and put it on another thread... it is indeed a timely question! I mean, if I was being accused of preaching a false gospel I would want to know what others' thought the gospel was. I'd want to know what was essential to include (when preaching) so that it was a clear gospel message... I'd also want to know what could be added to the gospel message and still maintian its purity. It's a very important subject that requires our diligent attention.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 6, 2006 23:04:36 GMT -5
Amen Jeff!
Bye the way, God has also been working in hearts of His ervants, and you can now do as God leads you again. Thanks again to GNNleaders who saw that this was a matter for God to decide.
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