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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 22, 2006 14:47:24 GMT -5
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. So, If we sin once then that is transression of the law, right? If you lie you transgress the ninth commandment do you not? As Ray Comroft would say, "How many lies do you have to tell, ten and then a bell goes off." One lie makes you a liar, just like one murder makes you a murderer. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, ie. sin. Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant, God's seed is in him. Put that in context with verse 6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not..." and you see that when you abide in Christ you cannot sin. The vine will not pour corrupted sap into the branches. That is how we know who is born again and who isnt, the twice born are righteous, the once born are sinful. Verse 5, "and ye know that he was manifest to take away our sins, and in him is no sin." If we are truly in him, and he has taken away our sin, and we abide in him, and are born again, we will not sin because if we love Jesus we obey what he told us. That is my pennyworth. So, if I understand you correctly, does this mean a person who is a "true Christian" can't fall away from grace or loose their salvation, because as you said "Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant," ? Is this what you're meaning? Do you believe all sin is the same?
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 22, 2006 20:25:33 GMT -5
Sin is sin, and all sin, whether a "one time deal" or a "practicing", is an abomination to the Lord.
It's pretty clear:
Without HOLINESS, no man shall see the Lord.
No man.
Period.
Arminian.
Catholic.
Pentecostal.
Calvinist.
etc.
etc.
We walk as Jesus walked or we're already in the depths of hell.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 22, 2006 21:39:43 GMT -5
Welcome to the board biblethumper! Great name and I give a hearty AMEN to your post!
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Post by aaron on Apr 23, 2006 1:29:03 GMT -5
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. So, If we sin once then that is transression of the law, right? If you lie you transgress the ninth commandment do you not? As Ray Comroft would say, "How many lies do you have to tell, ten and then a bell goes off." One lie makes you a liar, just like one murder makes you a murderer. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, ie. sin. Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant, God's seed is in him. Put that in context with verse 6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not..." and you see that when you abide in Christ you cannot sin. The vine will not pour corrupted sap into the branches. That is how we know who is born again and who isnt, the twice born are righteous, the once born are sinful. Verse 5, "and ye know that he was manifest to take away our sins, and in him is no sin." If we are truly in him, and he has taken away our sin, and we abide in him, and are born again, we will not sin because if we love Jesus we obey what he told us. That is my pennyworth. So, if I understand you correctly, does this mean a person who is a "true Christian" can't fall away from grace or loose their salvation, because as you said "Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant," ? Is this what you're meaning? Do you believe all sin is the same? In reply to Darc, I have understood it not to mean that a Christian can't lose their salvation but rather you can't remain a christian and sin. Eg. Your following after Christ (being a Christian) and in a moment of temptation you choose to turn and sin, in that moment of turning you can't call yourself a Christian because you have turned from Christ. You have chosen not to sumbmit and obey Him but rather obey your self, doing what you please. The verse is not saying it is impossible for a person to sin but it is impossible for a 'Christian' to stay as a Christian and sin. If you sin aren't you a sinner, not a christian? You may be a Christian but as soon as you sin your a sinner (one lie makes a liar, one murder makes a murderer, why wouldn't one sin make a sinner?). Also, all sin is the same in that it is transgression of the law. Dosen't Gods word say that breaking the law at one point breaks the whole law, not just a part. Those are my veiws anyway.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 23, 2006 7:28:10 GMT -5
Excellent post Aaron! I agree exactly.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 8:23:53 GMT -5
Here like always, people jump off subject and try and ressurect the Calvin Arminius debate. A Christian can indeed fall away, because it is not impossible for a Christian to sin, but possible to not sin. And please, dont qoute me out of context.
Yes, James 2:10. Murder and lying are both equally bad, all sin will send you to hell just as fast as all other sin. I like Kirk Cameron's ten link chain analogy, if you break one link, the whole chain falls.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 8:29:08 GMT -5
evanschaible, by stating that a Christian "can indeed fall away", have you not also partaken of the Calvinist/Arminian debate that you see being resurrected? I'll tell you what... Calvinists and Arminians will both be side by side in hell debating their foolishness if they die without Jesus and the Atonement He provided on Calvary. As a Calvinist I can say wholeheartedly that I couldn;t care less what one doctrinal stance is in these areas (of Calvinist/Arminian debate).... I'll disfellowship from any Calvinist or Arminian who walks in deliberate sin and loves this world. You see, doctrine will save no man at any time. My Jesus who bled and died on the Cross is who saves me. Possibly, if Calvin and Arminius had more time to do the work of the Lord rather than debate one another and produce such offspring as we have today, they could have been the wesley's and finney's and spurgeon's of their day. Just a thought
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 8:41:28 GMT -5
You are right brother, I did, but simply to answer the false assumption that was brought forward to my reply. AMEN to that brother. AMEN to that brother But I am a Wesleyan now that I have done even more research. There is a difference between Arminian doctrine and Wesleyan doctrine. AMEN, but to qoute brother Miles, bad doctrine can damn you at that time.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 8:51:52 GMT -5
evanschaible, see, this is an issue which is awesome! It's quite evident you believe in the Gospel, by the statement agreed to which says anyone without Christ will end up in hell, calvinist or not.
See... we can agree lol
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 8:56:56 GMT -5
Whoa, did a Calvinist and a Arminian just..........AGREE? ;D Any way, we should probably get back on topic before Micah yells at us...
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 23, 2006 15:08:58 GMT -5
Here like always, people jump off subject and try and ressurect the Calvin Arminius debate. A Christian can indeed fall away, because it is not impossible for a Christian to sin, but possible to not sin. And please, dont qoute me out of context. Yes, James 2:10. Murder and lying are both equally bad, all sin will send you to hell just as fast as all other sin. I like Kirk Cameron's ten link chain analogy, if you break one link, the whole chain falls. Evan, I simply asked you three questions to get a better understanding of where you are coming from. I'm not wanting to "jump off subject" as you say, just needing you to expound on your stance brother. YOU SAID "And please, dont qoute me out of context." If I did, I ask you to forgive me, however, I don't see where I did so please explain. OK, let's see what the scripture says about sin. "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (1 John 5:16,17). "Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” (Jn. 19:11, NKJV) If there is a greater sin there must also be a lesser sin. Read Gen. 18:20 and Exo. 32:30. Also in Moses' day, when capital punishment was enforced, there was sin deserving death (Deut 21:22) and sin that was not deserving of death (Deut 22:26,NKJV) Also, one type of sin is eternal (Mark 3:29), while others are not. Another type of sin (sexual immorality) is uniquely against our own bodies, while other sins are outside our bodies (1 Cor 6:18, NIV). Furthermore, certain types of sin like worry (Phil. 4:6), unthankfulness (Luke 17:11-18; Col. 2:7; 3:15) and not being completely humble and gentle (Eph. 4:2) are not sited in any list of sins that will exclude one from the kingdom, like sexual immorality, drunkenness, greed or lying are (1Cor 6:9,10; Rev. 21:8; 22;15). Besides all that, there are willful sins (Psa. 19:13), unintentional sin (Numbers 15:22, NKJV), defiant sin (2 Kings 21:11) and deliberate sin (Heb. 10:26). From all of this it should be apparent that there are not only different degrees of sin, but sin can also be classified in different ways, such as unintentional, deliberate, etc., as just shown.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 23, 2006 15:42:43 GMT -5
Sin is sin, and all sin, whether a "one time deal" or a "practicing", is an abomination to the Lord. It's pretty clear: Without HOLINESS, no man shall see the Lord. No man. Period. Arminian. Catholic. Pentecostal. Calvinist. etc. etc. We walk as Jesus walked or we're already in the depths of hell. thumper, I agree with most of what you said, however, please refer to my posted response to Evan on the issue of sin. Yes, holiness is key to seeing the Lord. AMEN I agree with the brother in regard to doctrine that said "AMEN, but to qoute brother Miles, bad doctrine can d**n you at that time." If our doctrine is the foundation to another gospel we're in big trouble. We must be clear, to not be is to be ignorant of the need of true doctrine verses false doctrine. Doctrine is key. It's like putting water in the gas tank of your car or using a marshmellow as the cornerstone of your house. Both done with good intentions but both very damaging. Amen?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 23, 2006 15:50:39 GMT -5
So, if I understand you correctly, does this mean a person who is a "true Christian" can't fall away from grace or loose their salvation, because as you said "Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant," ? Is this what you're meaning? Do you believe all sin is the same? In reply to Darc, I have understood it not to mean that a Christian can't lose their salvation but rather you can't remain a christian and sin. Eg. Your following after Christ (being a Christian) and in a moment of temptation you choose to turn and sin, in that moment of turning you can't call yourself a Christian because you have turned from Christ. You have chosen not to sumbmit and obey Him but rather obey your self, doing what you please. The verse is not saying it is impossible for a person to sin but it is impossible for a 'Christian' to stay as a Christian and sin. If you sin aren't you a sinner, not a christian? You may be a Christian but as soon as you sin your a sinner (one lie makes a liar, one murder makes a murderer, why wouldn't one sin make a sinner?). Also, all sin is the same in that it is transgression of the law. Dosen't Gods word say that breaking the law at one point breaks the whole law, not just a part. Those are my veiws anyway. Aaron, Thanks. I agree with your asessment on the relationship of sin to a believer. Sin is still the issue after salvation and can d**m a soul to hell if they don't repent and seek mercy and forgiveness from the Lord. Beside the eternal sin (Mk 3:29) the only sin that is unforgivable is the one not confessed and repented of.
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Post by aaron on Apr 24, 2006 1:31:59 GMT -5
Amen Darc! You guys who are arguing over Arminisim and Calvinism...didn't Paul rebuke people for that? People saying I follow Peter, but others say I follow Paul....whatever happened to just saying I'm a follower of Christ? You may agree with what they say but it shouldn't cause such dissention. I may be wrong but that is how I interperet the situation.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 7:54:00 GMT -5
Amen Darc! You guys who are arguing over Arminisim and Calvinism...didn't Paul rebuke people for that? People saying I follow Peter, but others say I follow Paul....whatever happened to just saying I'm a follower of Christ? You may agree with what they say but it shouldn't cause such dissention. I may be wrong but that is how I interperet the situation. AMEN. I agree whole-heartedly brother. That is who I follow, JESUS. Let me state though that it is by my actions of using the words of my Lord and Savior Jesus that I make my stand and nothing else. If it is not the truth of the Word then it is rhetoric and man's opinion. I do not ascribe one way or the other per say, however I like the fact that some of the Saints in the past aligned themselves with the word rather than conjector and pretexting, meaning I enjoy the Wesley and Arminian approach more so than any other. But that comes second. I am not arguing that way, but what I am doing is contending for the faith using the WORD. Sometimes when using the Word it cuts and people bow there backs and squirm and all that is is the power of the Word by the Spirit working on a person. Amen?
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 25, 2006 16:34:43 GMT -5
Someone once said to me, "Crippled Gospels Produce Crippled Christians".
Those who practice sin have no relationship with the Lord or very little of a relationship.
Sin= Satan IN
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