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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 15:19:57 GMT -5
Many Christians say that the word commit in 1 John 3:8-9 means to practice sin (like you practice at a sin to be the best at it).
If this is how this word is to be interpreted I was wondering why the same word is used in 1 John 3:4.
Whosever commits sin transgresses also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
So does this mean a person only sins when they are practicing sin? It seems clear to me that commit does not mean to practice but just to transgress.
The exact same word is used in 1 John 3:4, 8 and 9.
I believe this deals a death blow to the myth that says a person has to actually practice (as in practice in a way to be the best at) a sin to commit a sin.
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 21, 2006 15:36:33 GMT -5
1 John 3:8-9"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:4"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Micah, How do you understand this scripture. Does it mean that if a Christian commits a sin he is of the devil and not born of God?
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 17:40:02 GMT -5
Steve,
If a Christian commits a sin he is out of fellowship with God and has now aligned himself with the devil. If he dies, he dies in his sin and will end up in hell. He must repent and continue in loving obedience to Christ to remain in fellowship with God and call himself a Christian.
My main point of the above post was to show the word commit cannot mean to practice sin the same way someone practices a sport to be the best at it. Others on this board have tried to say that is the meaning of the word.
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 21, 2006 18:09:13 GMT -5
Micah, I understand your point and I'm not trying to argue here, but I do want to examine this scripture and it's application. How would you respond to the argument that the text does not say that he has "aligned himself with the devil" but is of the devil? Meaning he's not a Christian. The meaning then would be similar to what John records Jesus as saying to the Pharisees who were trying to kill him, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44) I think that people interpret this passage as meaning habitual sin because otherwise it appears to teach that if a Christian commits a sin he's not a Christian.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 21:18:56 GMT -5
Many Christians say that the word commit in 1 John 3:8-9 means to practice sin (like you practice at a sin to be the best at it). If this is how this word is to be interpreted I was wondering why the same word is used in 1 John 3:4. Whosever commits sin transgresses also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 This is where you are wrong brother. Remember who John is writing to here and why he is writing. 1 John 5:13, "I write this to you...that you may KNOW that you have eternal life..." John is writing this letter to people who call themselves Christian and the whole letter is written to clarify to these people the way in which a True Christian will live. The Greek word that is translated as "committeth" in the KJV and "practice(s)" in the NASB is poieo. It is a present tense active participle. That means it should be literally translated "He who is continually doing sin." One commentator suggests that it should be translated, "He that makes sin his business or practice." In 1 John 3:8 (KJV), "He that committeth sin is of the devil;" "Of" is the Greek word ek, "out of," used with the ablative case, gives us the ablative of source. He who continually does sin is out of the devil as a source. That is, he reveals who his Father is: the devil. Habitual sin is an indication of character, and here, of source.
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Post by Rodgers on Apr 21, 2006 21:34:14 GMT -5
Blah Blah Blah. This greek word that greek word means this and not that and if this and if that. WHATEVER! We all need to meditate on these verses.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. <<< Sounds like Paul in Roamsn 7 doing those things he didn't want to do. He was not walking in the Spirit and that is why he did those things he really did not want to do.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 21:42:46 GMT -5
RevK,
So as far as 1 John 3:4 that means it is not a sin unless you continually practice it right? It is not a lie unless you lie a whole bunch of times. It is not a sin to steal unless you continually practice stealing.
How do you apply what you are saying to 1 John 3:4?
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 21:44:28 GMT -5
Steve,
One a Christian has sinned if he does not repent then he is of the devil.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 22:02:57 GMT -5
Wow Micah! I can see you are open to the TRUTH AS USUAL. Your way of interpreting the Bible can make the Bible say anything. It reminds me of how Homosexuals interpret the verses about Homosexuality being a sin.
As I said before, this letter is written for a specific purpose, to a specific people. It is written to people who call themselves Christians in order that they might understand what a True Christian looks like. He wants them to know whether or not they truly have eternal life. I don't need 1 John 3:4 to say what you want it to say. I will let it say what it does say. To do anything else is to impose myself upon Scripture and I don't want to be guilty of that. I know that breaking God's Law is sin brother. Look at Exodus 20, look at Matthew 5-7, look 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. This verse says what it says and that's all that it says...
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 22:22:01 GMT -5
RevK,
You know brother I asked a good question (at least I believed it was) and you became insulting with me accusing me of not being open to truth. I do not appreciate this and I do not think you responded properly. On top of that this is a section devoted to doctrine and theology where we discuss how we understand certain passages. Then you turn around and totally avoid my original question saying the bible says what it says. You did not waste any space earlier to give an in-depth analysis of the way you understand 1 John 3:8-9. Now I asked you to try to apply that same interpretation on verse 4 and you know it does not fit so you insult me. Maybe it is possible that you are not the one open to truth?
I am going to assume you do not have an answer for the question I brought up, and you are avoiding it by insulting me.
Can anyone say ad hominem?
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 22:27:28 GMT -5
RevK, You know brother I asked a good question (at least I believed it was) and you became insulting with me accusing me of not being open to truth. I do not appreciate this and I do not think you responded properly. On top of that this is a section devoted to doctrine and theology where we discuss how we understand certain passages. Then you turn around and totally avoid my original question saying the bible says what it says. You did not waste any space earlier to give an in-depth analysis of the way you understand 1 John 3:8-9. Now I asked you to try to apply that same interpretation on verse 4 and you know it does not fit so you insult me. Maybe it is possible that you are not the one open to truth? I am going to assume you do not have an answer for the question I brought up, and you are avoiding it by insulting me. Can anyone say ad hominem? Forgive me for insulting you brother...just calling it like I see it...kind of like you do in the Open Air. Anyway, I DID NOT avoid your question. I answered it quite clearly. I said: 1 John 3:4 says exactly what 1 John 3:8 says in the Greek. I take it at face value, not adding or taking away from it...
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Post by josh on Apr 21, 2006 22:58:17 GMT -5
From looking at what the greek says, Kerrigan has it right. The greek appears to be dealing with the issue of a practicing of sin, which is one who continually commits sin.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 23:10:05 GMT -5
So how do you apply that to 1 John 3:4? Is it only when you practice a sin (commit) that you are transgressing the law? I believe it is clearly saying if you sin (once) by breaking the law of God then that is sin.
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Post by josh on Apr 21, 2006 23:15:57 GMT -5
I take it for what it says:
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. - 1 John 3:4 (NASB)
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 23:19:21 GMT -5
I take it for what it says: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. - 1 John 3:4 (NASB) Amen Josh...NASB is the most literal from the Greek translation there is. Sorry KJV guys ;D
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Post by josh on Apr 21, 2006 23:22:06 GMT -5
I take it for what it says: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. - 1 John 3:4 (NASB) Amen Josh...NASB is the most literal from the Greek translation there is. Sorry KJV guys ;D I agree, thats why I used it. Scholars point to the NASB as the most literal translation
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 23:24:02 GMT -5
RevK,
You know if you want to play rought then I can also play rough, but I do not think that is appropriate for this area of a discussion board where we are supposed to be having sincere dialogue with brothers and sisters on points of doctrine and theology.
In the open air we are to be calling sinners to repentance and that means naming and labeling specific sins. This is a much different setting.
When you felt someone was categorizing you as a soft preacher on here (not myself) you became offended, angered, began insulting and threatened not to post anymore. Now you compare my interpretation of the bible to that of homosexuals. This is really a ridiculous comparison. Your biggest problem with my interpretation is it does excuse sin at all. The homosexuals use the bible to defend their sin.
You talk often of others knowing how much we love them, but I have noticed you are quick to become angry, insult, and get offended.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 23:35:17 GMT -5
RevK, You know if you want to play rought then I can also play rough, but I do not think that is appropriate for this area of a discussion board where we are supposed to be having sincere dialogue with brothers and sisters on points of doctrine and theology. In the open air we are to be calling sinners to repentance and that means naming and labeling specific sins. This is a much different setting. When you felt someone was categorizing you as a soft preacher on here (not myself) you became offended, angered, began insulting and threatened not to post anymore. Now you compare my interpretation of the bible to that of homosexuals. This is really a ridiculous comparison. Your biggest problem with my interpretation is it does excuse sin at all. The homosexuals use the bible to defend their sin. You talk often of others knowing how much we love them, but I have noticed you are quick to become angry, insult, and get offended. Are you changing the topic? I am not a soft preacher brother, I am a Biblical preacher. My biggest problem with your interpretation is just that: it is yours. It is not Biblical. If the Bible said what you believe, then I WOULD believe it. The homosexuals may use the Bible to defend their sin, but you use it to defend your doctrine which is not there at all. THe comparison with the way you interpret Scripture and the way homosexuals interpret Scripture is that you both go into it with pre-conceived notions. Instead of taking out of it what it says, you read into it what you want. As far as me threatening to leave the boards because of accusations, that situation was resolved between me and the person who were having the discussion at that time.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 22, 2006 0:05:17 GMT -5
No brother I am not changing the topic. You changed the topic by refusing to respond to my question. Please go back and read carefully.
Josh did a good job of answering my question. According to the NASB, I can agree with that. It is different in the KJV.
I never called you a soft preacher. I never even insinuated you were. You thought someone else was insinuating that. Again, you need to go back and read carefully.
You may have resolved that situation but your actions continue to be the same. Throw a tantrum if someone doesn't agree with you.
My doctrinal stance on holiness is all over the bible. Real Christians do not commit sin.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 22, 2006 0:14:13 GMT -5
You changed the topic by refusing to respond to my question. I answered your question 3 times... I never said you did, in fact I said that the person and me resolved that and you had no reason to bring it back up. I could easily bring up many times where you have acted similarly on this MB. I did and again, that was resolved between the two of us Brother, I didn't throw a tantrum. You must be able to look through your computer screen and see me or something. You can't see my actions by words I write on the screen. It seems to me that YOU are the one who throws tantrums when someone disagrees with you... You make me laugh Micah. A statement like, "it is all over the Bible" doesn't prove anything. Show us chapter and verse where it is. If I remember correctly, the Scriptures you usually seem to use are the ones that were just refuted.
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Post by josh on Apr 22, 2006 0:16:47 GMT -5
Josh did a good job of answering my question. According to the NASB, I can agree with that. It is different in the KJV. Glad it was answered, the NASB seems to align more with the greek, like RevK said.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 22, 2006 0:30:00 GMT -5
You do not remember correctly. I have posted many more scriptures other than 1 John 3:8-9. I certainly have posted alot more that show Christians do not sin than you can show that seem to indicate they do.
I have shown this on here many times, but I am not going to do it again at this time.
I am really sorry we had this discussion. I am not sorry about Josh giving me that version in the NASB but about you going into insults because you don't agree with me.
I am sorry I offended you. I would be more specific but I do not really know why I offended you. I am not sure whether I actually offended you or not or whether you just think I am an idiot. The way you have been speaking to me that is what it sounds like.
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Post by aaron on Apr 22, 2006 0:30:36 GMT -5
I have to agree with messengermicah, a true Christian does not commit sin. Amen micah!
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 22, 2006 0:48:12 GMT -5
Micah, if I insulted you then I am sorry. You are right, there is no reason for us to talk about this again. I think this whole thing can be summed up and clarified on this thread: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1143601352&page=1 I don't think you were on the board during the time of this thread, but it was a good one in my mind. Take a read if you like. In the end Micah, we are just both going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It seems we are both very passionate about our stance on what the Bible says about this issue. And in the end one or both of us ends up offended, whether the other person meant to offend or not. I love you bro and thank God that you DO preach the Gospel!
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Post by josh on Apr 22, 2006 0:52:48 GMT -5
I have to agree with messengermicah, a true Christian does not commit sin. Amen micah! I agree Christians are commanded not to sin, and I preach against sin long, and hard. Even calling Christians to "go sin no more"
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Post by josh on Apr 22, 2006 0:54:14 GMT -5
By the way Aaron, welcome to the message board, great to see another Aussie on this board!
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Post by aaron on Apr 22, 2006 4:21:21 GMT -5
Cheers Josh!
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 22, 2006 8:57:48 GMT -5
RevK,
I appreciate your last response. I apologize for bringing up the past. I should not have done that. I read that thread also and thought it was pretty good. I read through most of it at the time it was posted but did not really have much to add, because I thought it was summed up well.
I have been saying all along that for a Christian to love and obey God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength is as perfect as he can be. This would be a clear conscience.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 22, 2006 12:20:59 GMT -5
Well, It is raining our, so I thought I would offer my penny. I have to say that I agree with Micah. That is not because I preach and believe in holiness either. But allow me to offer you my take.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
So, If we sin once then that is transression of the law, right? If you lie you transgress the ninth commandment do you not? As Ray Comroft would say, "How many lies do you have to tell, ten and then a bell goes off." One lie makes you a liar, just like one murder makes you a murderer.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, ie. sin. Whosoever is born of God (born again) does not sin, why? Because he cant, God's seed is in him. Put that in context with verse 6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not..." and you see that when you abide in Christ you cannot sin. The vine will not pour corrupted sap into the branches.
That is how we know who is born again and who isnt, the twice born are righteous, the once born are sinful. Verse 5, "and ye know that he was manifest to take away our sins, and in him is no sin." If we are truly in him, and he has taken away our sin, and we abide in him, and are born again, we will not sin because if we love Jesus we obey what he told us.
That is my pennyworth.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 22, 2006 13:20:36 GMT -5
Thanks Evan that was exactly my point of 1 John 3:4. Apparently it may be different in other translations.
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