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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 27, 2006 10:44:07 GMT -5
Any takers? Your statement, dear friend:Now we all agree that there will be a second coming of Jesus when He comes to gather His elect. The question is when does it occur?Just a quick drive -by: Question for you? In Rev 20:4 Why didn't John mention the resurrection of the church saints? In his grip...E.W.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 28, 2006 10:17:04 GMT -5
I can't WAIT to be caught up in the Rapture!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 29, 2006 17:48:23 GMT -5
Any takers? Your statement, dear friend:Now we all agree that there will be a second coming of Jesus when He comes to gather His elect. The question is when does it occur?Just a quick drive -by: Question for you? In Rev 20:4 Why didn't John mention the resurrection of the church saints? In his grip...E.W. Sorry for the length on this, but it took some background to answer it.Revelation 20:1-6 1"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."Verse 2: Satan is being bound for a thousand years Verse 4b: the souls of "who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God." Verse 4c: "They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands." Verse 4d: "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." To get to your question we must first ask when did these things happen? God was showing John future events as they had already happened or were happening. In other words, he is seeing the beheaded saints because God is showing him when these things occur. According to Matt. 24:1-31 verses 4-13 describe events that either have happened or that are happening or will occur before the mid-point of the 7 year tribulation period. We know when the Lord Jesus says "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel." in verse 15 we must look at: Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." We know that the Antichrist will reveal himself when he sets up his kingdom in the temple, breaking the 7 year peace treaty at the mid-point and enforcing the taking of the mark of the beast or be beheaded. We know that the return of Christ for His bride occurs at the end of the age as Matt. 24:1-31 says in verses 29-31. Read Rev. 8:1: "When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."Silence in heaven for a half an hour means that God's Kingdom has been set up on earth, which means it is all done except the thousand year reign. Rev. 11:15-18: " 15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great— and for destroying those who destroy the earth."This is when the Lord sets up His Kingdom and this is also, just as the Matt. passage states, the time of judging and we know that that occurs at the resurrection. Rev. 16:17: The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!"It is done means it is done, no more! These are one in the same event. All three of these signify the end of the age and the judgment of all, both those whose names are written the Book of Life and those whose name's are not. They all three happen at the same time for there can't be three ends of the ages. Just one. I say all that to say this: Verse 4: "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."He saw their souls and " they came to life". This is the Resurrection mentioned here based on this?, which we know happens at the end of the tribulation and of the age. I don't know if I've answered your question but can you see this? (EDITED by darc on 5/1) The reason why John didn't mention the resurrection of the church is because he is being shown things in heaven after the resurrection has already occured. It's clear that in Chapter 19 the resurrection has occured at the end of the age but not before the tribulation.
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Post by Jules on Apr 30, 2006 13:15:49 GMT -5
Guess I am confused. This thread started out asking WHERE the church is rapture, (which I took to mean IF) then it was changed to WHEN. So, is the question WHEN (and we all agree it does happen) or is it IF (and we don't agree that a rpature takes place at all)?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 30, 2006 14:48:17 GMT -5
Guess I am confused. This thread started out asking WHERE the church is rapture, (which I took to mean IF) then it was changed to WHEN. So, is the question WHEN (and we all agree it does happen) or is it IF (and we don't agree that a rapture takes place at all)? I believe "where" and "when" mean the same thing like, "where in time" and "when in time." The rapture of the church definitely happens at the end of the age though according to many scriptures. The pretrib rapture says that God's children won't have to suffer any of the events God spoke of in Revelation or Matthew 24, etc. If that were so then God wasted a lot of paper and ink telling us something we don't need to know about in Revelation and Daniel, etc.! The Bible is written for us who are believers. God is telling us to be prepared for the testing is about to come! The saints are spoken of all the way through the book of Revelation and the church is made up of saints, Amen? www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet
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Post by evanschaible on May 1, 2006 11:03:47 GMT -5
I really dont believe in any kind of rapture. The final ressurection, Yes. The rapture, NO. The tribulation could very well BE NOW. However the sun hasnt been darkened as of yet, so I doubt it. As brother Ravenhill says about the rapture, "The man who tells you that is a liar" (The Spirit of a true Prophet pt. II).
Maybe this could just be a revelation thread, that book is very fascinating and intrigueing. What about it brethren, The Revelation that is?
Is it three ways of looking at the same string of events? Or just one constant string of events? Who is the beast (The RCC ;D) and who is the Antichrist and where wil he come from?
This could be a very fascinating thread. SO lets get to it!
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 1, 2006 11:26:11 GMT -5
I have not listened to that sermon in a long time, but did Ravenhill specificly say that if a man believes in the rapture he is a liar? I don't remember him saying that.
I do remember him saying if anyone preaches that Christians won't go through trials and tribulations they are a liar.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 1, 2006 12:49:59 GMT -5
Ravenhill was speaking of the teaching that Americans will be raptured before any type of persecution or tribulation comes to them. He tells of Chinese Christians who were told the same thing by their Pastors, "Oh you'll be raptured before any persecution or tribulation comes to you". But sure enough, it came to the Chinese Church and they were not raptured. Years later the members of these Churches would run into their pastors and say, "Your a false prophet. You said we would be raptured before any of these things came to us. I've watchd my house get burned. I've watched my family be executed. I've spent all these years in prison. You're a false prophet."
Ravenhill says, "beware pastors or one day your congregation might say the same to you."
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 1, 2006 13:09:01 GMT -5
Oh ok.. I remember now.
I do lean toward a pre-trib rapture, but do think there will be persecution here before it happens. I'm not too solid on what I think about end-times events.
I don't see how He can come with all His saints, while some of the saints are still here....
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Post by biblethumper on May 1, 2006 17:09:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure that the great Leonard Ravenhill, who also stood by men such as false prophet William Branham and John Wimber, can be taken as "thus saith the Lord". (though he did stray away from these men and their like, the fact remains he did at one time stand WITH them) Ravenhill is one of my favorite Holiness preachers, so I'm certainly not saying he's "false" or "ungodly". Ravenhill was and is, most likely, the godliest man I have ever heard and read and watched. That said, it certainly doesn't make me go around calling people who believe in the Rapture "liars". To say that is an arrogant statement. Do I believe in a pre trib? Mid trib? Post trib? I am not set either way, and really, it's not clear enough to me from Scripture. However, I'm not going to run to Ravenhill or Wilkerson or anyone for that matter, to receive the Truth of the Scriptures. Teaching is great and ordained of God (Ehpesians 4) yet let's not take a statement from one man and run with it I love Ravenhill, but to call someone a liar because HE said so? To deny the Rapture because HE says so? I'll study (am studying) the Doctrine and when the Spirit of God gives me that understanding on the issue I'll run with it. I won;t be runiing with a man's statement on the issue. One false statement could cost you a paragraph of truth
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 2, 2006 8:35:40 GMT -5
I didn't interpret what Ravenhill said as to mean if you believe in the rapture you are a liar. I thought he was saying if you think it will happen before any persecution. Maybe that's just because of my presupposition. I've listened to quite a bit of Ravenhill and don't ever remember him coming straight against the rapture. I have never caught it myself anyways. I do remember once he said (paraphrase), "One preacher says that we have all lost sight of the Rapture. That's not so. We have lost sight of the Judgment Seat of Christ." SO.... How does Christ come with all His saints if there isn't a rapture before His coming? Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. Or do you interpret all not to mean all? Like the world doesn't mean the world to some.
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 8:45:13 GMT -5
I believe there is also a Rapture, but to pinpoint WHEN? I don't know, because any solid statement I would make would be a good guess, at best, a bad guess, at worst; all in all, a GUESS. *did I say guess again?* I think Wilkerson is post trib, yet not sure; though I was told such, if my memory serves me correctly, that he was. I also have some friends here in my city who are mid, post and pre. My favorite pastor, my Calvinist uncle, is post trib. My father in the faith, the one who led me to Jesus Christ, is pre trib. I lean more to pre trib myself, but again, it's just a guess. To believe the statement of any man based on his own understanding would be a fault I'm not willing to fall into. I don't want Ravenhill's, Wilkerson's or my own understanding. I want to know what Jesus said. And really, there are some things that we will NOT understand until Glory. Some will, others will not. I'm probably one who won't. Why? I used to go around shouting that if you denied the rapture you "probably" weren't "saved" or "going in it". The Lord had to bring me down a notch So, I'm not concerned about making dogmatic statemments about a doctrine which some of Heaven's godliest men have disagreed upon. I do believe there IS a Rapture, and when it comes, I'm going. No doubt about it. I don't care what anyone says. He WILL come. By His Grace I'm GOING. When is the question
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 2, 2006 9:03:20 GMT -5
Yeah I think he is. Times Square Church's doctrinal statement says, "We believe....In the blessed hope, the rapture of the Church at Christ’s coming."
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Post by tomah on May 2, 2006 11:55:07 GMT -5
Hello again guys!!! I'm back from my visit to California... I can't make out this thread, things have been edited/deleted etc. I don't believe in a pre-trib pre-mil rapture, it's not in the Bible. I have an article on it on my site - www.biblicalwitness.co.uk/pretribraptureI'm not going to get into the Dan Corner debate. I don't agree with him but neither do I agree with Jesse etc. However, unlike most if not all Arminians on this board, Dan DOES come across as an angry man on a mission not only showing an anger towards Calvinism, but also CalvinISTS.
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 12:53:49 GMT -5
Armen, we all agree that the essentials are needed for fellowship etc etc... but to say about doctrines such as the Rapture "I don't believe....it's not in the Bible"...
How do you know it's "not in the Bible"?
There are mighty men and women of God who say it IS "in the Bible".
No, I'm saying anything for nor against...
The issue is simply that to make such a dogmatic statement when your own view has been solidly debunked by all denominational sides is something of a wonder.
I mean, yes, Jesus is God, His Blood alone saves, etc etc... that is "in the Bible".
No debates there.
But on issues such as the Doctrine of the Rapture?
You make some pretty bold statements.
John Hagee, though I'm not his biggest fan, can certainly hold his own and shut your theory down in a blink.
Jack Van Impe, also not a favorite of mine, could do the same, ten times over.
"It's not in the Bible" is a statement which is far too dogmatic.
Why?
MILLIONS (not hundreds or thousands) can pointed show:
It IS in the Bible.
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Post by tomah on May 2, 2006 14:08:05 GMT -5
Did you read my article? Not just my statements.
God bless!
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Post by messengermicah on May 2, 2006 14:42:11 GMT -5
Welcome back Armen! I missed you. I started a thread asking about you in the random posts section. You may get a kick out of it.
Did you go to LA for the Azusa conference and did you come back speaking in tongues? Did you go there to preach against it?
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 14:43:58 GMT -5
I tried, but it says "can't find server"....
Also, I was only reply to the comment HERE on THIS board: "it's not in the Bible"
Can ya PM the article to moi?
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Post by newsong on May 2, 2006 16:57:54 GMT -5
I use to believe in the pre tribulation rapture. I found it quite a comfort. Now however, I know that many Christians are going through tribulation and persecution and maybe we all will in the future. As some of the above said I feel just the same be always ready and prepared doing the will of God. " If you stay in the Will of God you'll not miss out on ANYTHING. " I like that!
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 17:07:46 GMT -5
hey hey we're clay let's all fight some other day
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 2, 2006 20:17:51 GMT -5
Matthew 24:1-31 1"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. What things? The things He just mentioned that's what.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Jesus still has not mentioned the gathering or the resurrection yet has He?
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. 26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. Has He mentioned the gathering or the resurrection? 29"Immediately after the distress of those days Immediately after the distress of what days? The days He just mentioned thats what days. " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' No resurrection or gathering mentioned yet? 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." At what time? The time immediately after the distress of those days when the 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken' that's at what time. It is at this point when Jesus tells them/us the when to their question; "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus is very clear that the resurrection or gathering will not happen 'til the very end of the age or after "the distress of those days" (the tribulation)
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 12:28:40 GMT -5
I think the danger with the pre-trib rapture, as well as OSAS teaching I grew up with as a Southern Baptist, is that each contributed to a sense of FALSE security. ON the one hand, you're told you can do anything you want and God will forgive you. And then you are told you will get taken out before persecution and tribulation, so you don't have any motivation to grow in your faith. The WAY they are both taught is of the devil. Both result in man not building himself up in his most holy faith. Now, that said, I do believe in eternal security, but I don't teach a lawlessness or license for sin, or cotinuing in sin, or a "free ticket" no matter what. That certainly isn't Biblical. I teach an enduring faith - Revelation says over and over again that those "who endure" or "who overcome" will be saved. I'd love to be out of here before the tribulation. But, I'd also like ot have a front row seat when God pours out the bowl judgments on His enemies. And to be spared in the midst of that. Talk about an occassion for praise like no other! So either way, I'm good. Whatever God does is wise and good.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 7, 2006 14:19:37 GMT -5
Let's look at a couple of scriptures that relate to our being gathered to Him.
2 Thes. 2:1-4: "1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Why does the rebellion or Apostasy (the great falling away)happen? Is it because hard times have come and the bombs have statred falling and they believed they should've been raptured out before it all started happening? Could it be that people will be laughing and mocking those christians who thought they would be raptured away and there was no rapture yet? Why does it have to happen before Jesus comes again?
2 Peter 3:3,4: "3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
Why do the scoffers come, scoffing and saying 'Where is this 'coming' he promised?' If we are taken up out of here before the great tribulation then 2 Peter 2:3,4 would not be in the Bible would it?
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Post by biblethumper on May 7, 2006 14:53:58 GMT -5
Well, Jules, as one who sat under pre-trib doctrine for years I can disagree with your statement.
We were taught that if you were "left behind" after the rapture as a one who was backslidden and knew the Lord or heard the pure gospel but rejected it all.... we were taught you would be part of the group to be sent the strong delusion, becaus ethat group, mentioned in 2 thess, received not the love of the truth THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.
So, the pretrib doctrine may have scared the daylights out of many of us, but certainly didn;t give any of us an excuse for sin.
It's not the pre trib doctrine that gives a false security at all; the ones who give that falseness are those who thelselves false.
It has nothing to do with that doctrine.
That doctrine made us witness more, live better and stand tall for truth.
So..... I would disagree with any statement saying it gave false security.
Sure, it may be a doctrine which is unBiblical, yet it may also BE Biblical.
I'm not concerned either way, yet I do know that when we were big time advocates of the doctrine we certainly didn;t have the view you expressed in your post.
False security comes from false believers...they only use doctrine as their springboard.
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