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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 9:28:42 GMT -5
Uhh...MMM...I dont even know where to start? I am totally uneducated and would like you opinions on this. I know that people who believe the rapture use a scripture from Thessalonians, but I dont see a rapture in that scripture. Also the multitudes in The Revelation, but I see no rapture their either. I think that this is probably the heart of the pre, mid, post trib debate is it not? I dont know, but anyones help would be much appreciated.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 10:49:53 GMT -5
Men like John Hagee (and I have the sermons) teach that if one denies the Rapture they are not going IN the Rapture.
I disagree.
I believe in a pretribulational rapture, from Daniel, Matthew, Thessalonians and Revealtion.
However, a pastor once said this to me:
If you stay in the Will of God you'll not miss out on ANYTHING.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 11:16:14 GMT -5
Thats how I feel I guess, If it happens okay, But if not, I am prepared to suffer. I think tribulation evangelism would be awesome, Imagine the response you would get!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 23, 2006 14:15:30 GMT -5
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 17:20:09 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by Jules on Apr 23, 2006 19:48:48 GMT -5
in my humble opinion, evangelical outreach is a heretical site. I wouldn't recommend ANY of Dan Corner's articles without first praying diligently for discernment. He is an angry man with an agenda to divide the church, not edify it. He also believes that Ray Comfort is a heretic. That said, pray before you go, if you go to his site.
Rapture simply means a catching away, which will take place. The question isn't IF there is a rapture, because there clearly is. The question is WHEN does it happen? If it is pre-trib, post- or mid-trib, who cares? The only thing we need to know and do is to be found faithful when Christ comes and be preaching our butts off until He does, or we die first. Christians debate these topics too much I think, and it can detract.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 23, 2006 20:32:09 GMT -5
Having a true understanding of the when it occurs does not distract but it informs and prepares us on how to be ready. Always be ready, but be watching as the five wise virgins were, as we are told to do often in the New Covenant.
Everyone that speaks against a teacher or ministry must give Biblical reasons. You must show from scripture why the teacher is off base or wrong. Your opinions don't mean anything. Show the contradiction by Scripture please. It bothers me that this is continuing to happen when Jesse and Miles and Jeff were just slandered!!!!! How quickly we forget. It is OK to disagree with someone, but to call someone a heretic or make accusations without Biblical backup is slander! I implore everyone to be very careful with this!!!(1Cor 6:9-10) To those that have slandered brother Dan Corner I forgive you.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 20:47:47 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 20:55:25 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 7:02:55 GMT -5
PS: In response to DARC's above statement, here's a great place to start on Dan Corner, the false teacher (Messianic Jews have a great article on Corner and his heresies) www.therefinersfire.org/deadly_galatianism.htmNOTE: I only posted the link as a preamble; I do NOT essentially believe everything the Messianic Brethren on the above link are teaching... it's simplya good starting point..... here's a taste: The Messianic Response: As we stated above, Corner's "Jews don't have God" statement is totally ludicrous, not to mention anti-Semitic. It is absolutely astounding what Corner is trying pass off as God's Truth. His teachings are anti-Semitic and parallel the rantings of Hitler who also spewed hate speech when it came to the Jews. Also, another ministry also speaks out on Dan Corner, calling him a liar and giving solid evidence; also, they show he is a "religious phony". Check out the whole post in the "Random Posts" thread My friend, As I've mentioned before, people's opinions mean nothing in the matter whether Jew, Greek or Gentile. Show us where you and these folks say brother Corner is in error with his teaching compared with scripture and then we'll have a place to start. Until then it is nothing more than rhetoric. This is a rebuke for the second time about slandering. Slander is a damnable sin to a believer as well as to an unbeliever. Those that are slandering MUST REPENT or feel the flames of hellfire! To not warn you using God's Word as I did yesterday would be to say that I don't love you, but because I do I speak truth in regard to slander.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 11:11:39 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 24, 2006 11:33:30 GMT -5
Darc, are you a preterist, historicist, idealist, or futurist? God Bless.. E. Wallace
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 24, 2006 12:37:25 GMT -5
Darc, here is a website that you may enjoy.. loaded with alot information, and Israel friendly... www.harpazo.net/God Bless E. Wallace
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 13:22:24 GMT -5
I guess I lost my salvation huh? Seriously, though, DARC...your spirit grieves me and I have been praying since yesterday that the Lord would open my eyes to the spirit you operate under. I believe that you have an alien spirit to that of the Biblical record. I know that posting such words publically is something of a rough shot, and yet reviewing your own words I cannot help but see something very wrong here. If you believe you are standing in truth, fine, yet a young lady believed the same thing and even proclaimed Paul was a Man of the Way....yet Paul cast a spirit of diviniation out. The words were correct but the spirit was evil. I'll leave it at that for the moment. However, please know that if you continue attacking others under the spirit you operate in that the Lord will move swiftly and powerfully on behalf of those whose hearts are correct before Him. I do not claim innerancy or a prophetic gifting or any other thing; I simply know the Voice of the Shepherd, as all who are Born Again do. The Shepherd will sometimes speak to His Sheep concerning others, DARC. I believe it is correct to say that I do not believe the Shepherd has allowed me to become enslaved to the words of one who himself is enslaved yet promises liberty. May the Lord show all what spirit operates here in some of the postings by certain men crept in unawares. May I ask what it is you are trying to accomplish on these boards? My understanding of this area is to discuss doctrine and the like, using scripture references to show where our understanding is concerning doctrine. If you have opinions about me leave me a private message and leave the rest of the group out of it. Stay focused on the issue at hand. In responding to you, for the most part I have used scripture to show my position. I address the faulty understanding with scripture. Your opinion about me, my spirit, or who I listen to as a teacher have no bearing in this forum. I have not attacked you nor will I attack you. What I will contend against is false teaching, understanding or doctrine. YOU SAID: " However, please know that if you continue attacking others under the spirit you operate in that the Lord will move swiftly and powerfully on behalf of those whose hearts are correct before Him.Please show me where I have attacked someone thumper.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 13:25:08 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 14:59:27 GMT -5
Please read the passage below and tell me where the church is raptured. Point out to me where Jesus says he will gather his elect, what we commonly call the rapture.
Matthew 24:1-31 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
Now, I would like you to read back through it and look at what the word says we will go through, if we are that last generation of christians. It is very clear to me when and what we will see if we are them.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 15:06:25 GMT -5
Darc, are you a preterist, historicist, idealist, or futurist? God Bless.. E. Wallace I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, that Christ will reign for a thousand years here on earth after the seven year tribulation period and consequent rapture of His elect.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 17:24:14 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 18:52:37 GMT -5
Please read the passage below and tell me where the church is raptured. Point out to me where Jesus says he will gather his elect, what we commonly call the rapture. Matthew 24:1-31 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Now, I would like you to read back through it and look at what the word says we will go through, if we are that last generation of christians. It is very clear to me when and what we will see if we are them. So no one else would think that I don't believe in the rapture of the church because I didn't mention it in this post, I certainly do...at the end of the seven year tribulation as Jesus said in verse 31.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 19:02:07 GMT -5
Deleted By BibleThumper at the conviction of the Holy Spirit
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Post by Jules on Apr 24, 2006 19:29:37 GMT -5
Everyone that speaks against a teacher or ministry must give Biblical reasons. You must show from scripture why the teacher is off base or wrong. Your opinions don't mean anything. Show the contradiction by Scripture please. It bothers me that this is continuing to happen when Jesse and Miles and Jeff were just slandered!!!!! How quickly we forget. It is OK to disagree with someone, but to call someone a heretic or make accusations without Biblical backup is slander! I implore everyone to be very careful with this!!!(1Cor 6:9-10) To those that have slandered brother Dan Corner I forgive you. Darc, The reason I warned against (and I believe it was in a spirit of love for the brothers/sisters here) was because Dan Corner HIMSELF is the one who is slanderous. I have read countless articles and even bought his 600+ page book in which he slanders everyone (not using scripture most of the time). I am simply stating fact, not opinion. I have never met Mr. Corner personally, but as with anyone, by their fruit you will know them. Division is always of the devil. And when it happens on this board, it too is from the devil. We all need to check our motives and see if there is any sin in the camp when sharp disputes arise. I have prayed about this and have not been convicted that I acted in a motive that was ungodly by posting what I did about Mr. Corner or his ministry. And that's all I have to say about that.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 24, 2006 20:14:33 GMT -5
Please....I don't want to do this . You say, you say, but show me please an example and refute it with the Word of God. I will not respond to this kind of chatter. I am here to discuss scripture, I am very sorry some of you have hang ups regarding brother Corner, but unless his or anyone else's stand can be refuted by the use of scripture it makes no sense to go down that road. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 20:46:10 GMT -5
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 24, 2006 21:54:52 GMT -5
Darc, are you a preterist, historicist, idealist, or futurist? God Bless.. E. Wallace I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, that Christ will reign for a thousand years here on earth after the seven year tribulation period and consequent rapture of His elect. Good Evening, and thank you, may i ask you a question, in Revelation chapter 19 verse 7-8, Holy Scripture reads in 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and HIS WIFE hath made herself ready",8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed to fine linen, clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints"... this happen before the coming of Christ.. The wife is the Church, as in 2 Cor 11:2 already in Heaven before Christ coming to the earth, some believe that this means just as it is written, that the righteous are caught up to Heaven before Christ coming , is pictured.. Two reasons the Bride in chapter 21:2 is dressed and ready in heaven for the marriage of the Lamb, so the church must be already raptured and in heaven, not only that she is fully clothed in " Righteouness of saints" their righteous acts... For the righteous acts of the saints to be complete, they must be in heaven and delivered from all impurity.. In Holy Scripture runs many major threads that weave a tapesty of God's word, just as God gave the weaving of the material for the tabernacle and the priestly garments in the OT, now that we are under the New Covenent, and worship in Spirit and in Truth, the threads still run through Holy Scripture from the Beginning to the end of God's word..Not that the white thead so much, that runs through Holy Scripture, but as a backdrop. the colour white comes from, the holiness of God, and each OT and NT highlights God's holiness in a different way, the Ot where holiness was circumscribed by the Law, the NT where holiness is circumscribed by grace..And each of these are two dynamics against which God's plan of salvation is displayed.. You may be asking what does this have to do with the topic, well the holiness of God, the white back drop in Rev 19:8, the saints must be pure to be in Heaven, they must be in Heaven before Christ returns the second time. Caught up in the air, and meeting Jesus while he returns is an instant, there is no third time he returns, we are the only ones goverened by time.. God isn't ... Sometimes it can and may be hard to understand all this, but no matter what we Trust Him, not because we deserve anything, we Trust Him because of His Righteouness,Holiness, and Justice, and Mercy and Grace and he cannot lie. God is Faithful... we run the race no matter what.. What do you see in these Scripture verses? God Bless E.Wallace
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Post by Jules on Apr 24, 2006 22:25:07 GMT -5
Please....I don't want to do this . You say, you say, but show me please an example and refute it with the Word of God. I will not respond to this kind of chatter. I am here to discuss scripture, I am very sorry some of you have hang ups regarding brother Corner, but unless his or anyone else's stand can be refuted by the use of scripture it makes no sense to go down that road. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Since no one really seems interested in Dan Corner's teachings anyway, I don't see the need to say more than I have. If there was a thread started with some specifics of his teachings that were being discussed, I would take the time to respond with scripture, as you requested (and I agree, the Word is always to be our authoirty) but since this thread is not about evangelical outreach, I apologize to everyone else for getting off topic. I will also not be part of division on this board. Discussing doctrinal differences is one thing, but when the "tone" gets divisive or even hints at it, I'm outta there. So here I go....
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 25, 2006 6:44:50 GMT -5
Please....I don't want to do this . You say, you say, but show me please an example and refute it with the Word of God. I will not respond to this kind of chatter. I am here to discuss scripture, I am very sorry some of you have hang ups regarding brother Corner, but unless his or anyone else's stand can be refuted by the use of scripture it makes no sense to go down that road. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Since no one really seems interested in Dan Corner's teachings anyway, I don't see the need to say more than I have. If there was a thread started with some specifics of his teachings that were being discussed, I would take the time to respond with scripture, as you requested (and I agree, the Word is always to be our authoirty) but since this thread is not about evangelical outreach, I apologize to everyone else for getting off topic. I will also not be part of division on this board. Discussing doctrinal differences is one thing, but when the "tone" gets divisive or even hints at it, I'm outta there. So here I go.... Sister, I welcome all discussions regarding the topic at hand (doctrine). And just so everyone understands, it was not me that got off topic with either jules or thumper. The thread speaks for itself. In Jesus, Darc
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Post by Jules on Apr 25, 2006 10:26:34 GMT -5
I'm still not going there Blessings to you......and are we going back on topic with the rapture, or what?
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 25, 2006 10:34:57 GMT -5
Amen Jules!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 25, 2006 11:58:23 GMT -5
Please read the passage below and tell me where the church is raptured. Point out to me where Jesus says he will gather his elect, what we commonly call the rapture. Matthew 24:1-31 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Now, I would like you to read back through it and look at what the word says we will go through, if we are that last generation of christians. It is very clear to me when and what we will see if we are them. I am reposting this due to no one responding to this passage. Notice how Jesus, when asked by his disciples, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and(what will be the sign)of the end of the age?, answered them not in order but in the following verses discribes the signs and things to occur before He came and then end of the age. Now we all agree that there will be a second coming of Jesus when He comes to gather His elect. The question is when does it occur? Jesus answers by discribing the events that must occur and then He says "At that time". At what time? At the time "immediately after the distress of those days" is when we shall see Him coming on the clouds to receive us. But not until all the other events occur, the distress and tribulation.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 26, 2006 20:00:11 GMT -5
Any takers?
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